20 Replies Latest reply on Dec 1, 2012 3:09 PM by MichaelBoniwell

    Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues

    MichaelBoniwell

      Trying to set up a new PC and new Monitor. All my previous monitors were "normal", only offering the limited colour space of sRGB. When upgrading hardware, this time I foolishly thought I could work out how to use the Dell U2711 which has a wide colour gamut. I've already invested a couple of pointless and emotional weeks trying to make the wide gamut work and am now instead just trying to get it to consistently display the normal sRGB colours, and failing at even that simple task. I'm seeing washed out, less warm images in photoshop no matter what I do.

       

      In the past my understanding has been that even though a "normal" monitor can't show me the full AdobeRGB colours I'm still better off editing in that mode rather than sRGB. So for many years now my workflow as been to use Canon DPP set to Adobe RGB Working Space to generate 16bit TIFF images, which then I edit in Photoshop within the AdobeRGB colour space and when I'm finished I save a copy as an sRGB JPG for web/printing. On all previous "normal" monitors photoshop has shown me no visual difference between the original AdobeRGB image and the final copy as sRGB. They've always appeared identical. Furthermore viewing the final sRGB images on the web, across many different monitors, browsers and computers, and even the prints from various printing labs, for years have all looked reasonably close. I've been happy, confident even.

       

      Now I've bought this Dell wide colour monitor along with a new version of photoshop CS6 and it's been a nightmare. I've had to walk away from it several times just to calm down. It's taken me close to tears. I'm months behind on photo editing and at a desperation point. Please any help you can provide would be wonderful.

       

      Here's a summary of what the Dell is showing me. I've tried both a DisplayPort cable and a DVI cable but the result is the same. The PC is a Dell XPS 8500. It's Windows 8, and the operating system colour management is set to default, so sRGB as far as I can tell. ("Use my settings" tickbox is off). The monitor's "Preset" mode is on sRGB and was calibrated by Dell. I've reduced the brightness to 20%.

       

      Application DescriptionsRGBAdobeRGB
      Adobe Photoshop CS6 (No Proof)WrongWrong
      Adobe Photoshop CS6 (Proof Colours - Monitor RGB)CorrectWrong
      Canon DPP (With colour match to sRGB)CorrectCorrect
      Canon DPP (With colour match to OS Profile)WrongWrong
      Windows 8 "Photos" app (Metro)CorrectWrong
      Windows 8 Photo ViewerWrongWrong
      Apple Quicktime ProCorrectNA
      Windows Internet Explorer 10CorrectNA
      Canon Zoom BrowserCorrectWrong
      Windows Media PlayerCorrectWrong

       

      Wrong = Washed out, desaturated, too blue, not enough yellow/red. It's consistent. All "Corrects" look equally right and all "Wrongs" look similarly wrong.

       

      Thanks for any help,

       

       

      Michael Boniwell

      www.chockstonephotos.com

        • 1. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
          Lundberg02 Level 3

          It sounds like you are not familiar with color management and calibration.   sRGB would of course look "reasonably" ok across all those things. That was its intent, or so the Germans would have you believe.

          • 2. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
            Noel Carboni Level 8

            Have you set your monitor to its sRGB mode?

             

            If so, have you associated the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile with it at the operating system level?  I believe you must not have done so given what you have written.

             

            Click Start, type color management into the search box, and click Color Management when it comes up.  In the Devices tab, add the sRGB profile and make it the default. 

             

            It's not strictly necessary, but I'd log off Windows after doing this, and log back on. 

             

            See if things don't get a lot more consistent for you then.

             

            -Noel

            • 3. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
              MichaelBoniwell Level 1

              Thank-you so much!! That's all it took. Wow. I'm very grateful.

              • 4. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                Noel Carboni Level 8

                You're welcome.

                 

                Folks sometimes don't realize that the extra color you see from using a wider gamut monitor comes with some extra system-level baggage (inconsistencies) you have to learn to work around, as you have seen.

                 

                -Noel

                • 5. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                  gator soup Level 4

                  That's all it took

                   

                  if that means you set your wide-gamut monitor preset to sRGB and your Windows default monitor profile to sRGB i highly recommend you read up on the benefits of monitor calibration (and get a custom monitor profile set as default) because that configuration breaks Photoshop's (and all colormanaged apps) ability to function as a fully colormanaged reference monitor

                   

                  source Adobe Help or one of the colormanagement websites for more info about "monitor calibration" and why -- if you want an 'accurate' colormanaged viewing environment -- you should not set a device-independent profile (sRGB, Adobe RGB) as your monitor space

                  • 6. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                    Noel Carboni Level 8

                    Never mind.  I don't want to get into an argument.

                     

                    -Noel

                    • 7. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                      emil emil Level 4

                      Noel Carboni wrote:

                       

                      Have you set your monitor to its sRGB mode?

                       

                      If so, have you associated the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile with it at the operating system level?  I believe you must not have done so given what you have written.

                       

                      Click Start, type color management into the search box, and click Color Management when it comes up.  In the Devices tab, add the sRGB profile and make it the default. 

                       

                      It's not strictly necessary, but I'd log off Windows after doing this, and log back on. 

                       

                      See if things don't get a lot more consistent for you then.

                       

                      -Noel

                      With all due respect Noel, this is exactly what one should never do if the goal is creating colors that can be reproduced as intended.

                      First, the sRGB color mode control in u2711 and for that matter on all monitors with such option will not give the sRGB color space. It only changes the gamma curve of the display to 2.2 and does nothing to the chromaticity of the RGB signals. In fact it is not possible to change the chromaticity of the RGB signals on any monitor unless it is a model like those from Nec that have internal hardware LUT but even then it still will not give exactly the sRGB color space as specified. The only way to ensure true sRGB color space is using software color management conversion from a color space to the color space of the monitor on a monitor with a gamut equal or wider than the sRGB gamut. For that purpose u2711 is an excellent monitor. And the only reliable way to ensure that the color management converts to the true color space of the monitor is to create a monitor profile with a color measuring device that can measure the chromaticity of the RGB signals.

                       

                      Your suggestion will make the colors displayed in the color space of the monitor when  using the sRGB color space in color managed programs. This will also match the color in non - color managed programs that can't do anything else but display the colors in the color space of the monitor.  Since the color space of the monitor is not equal to sRGB, Michael will not see the colors that others will see in the true sRGB color space. The images Michel creates making color decisions and creating colors referring to the feedback of his monitor can be reproduced as intended only on  his particular unit of u2711 model as long as the monitor remains for the rest of its life in the same physical condition. The colors will be wrong (not as intended) on any other monitor and output device and any close match will be nothing more than pure luck.

                       

                      Michael, you need to understand one simple thing. Color managed programs can display the colors how other can see them on other devices while non-color managed programs can't do that and they display the colors only how your monitor can display them. For this reason you will see colors displayed differently on different programs depending on their capabilities and this is a completely normal thing that should not make you sick. In fact you should really worry if the colors are displayed the same in color and non-color managed programs.

                       

                       

                       

                      edit: Noel, I did not see you post # 6 before posting, I was interrupted by a long phone conversation in the middle of writing the reply. I'm not writing this to challenge your suggestion which could be what one may what to achieve for whatever propose. I'm just sharing my understand hoping it could be useful for whoever finds it as such.

                      • 8. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                        Noel Carboni Level 8

                        "Break"...  "Never"...  <shakes head>

                         

                        I really don't want to get into another color-management argument.  There are two key things here:

                         

                        1.  The sRGB preset is generally decently accurate on modern high-end monitors.  There is no sin in using the sRGB profile with such a monitor.

                         

                        2.  Michael finds consistency between his applications, which are fully, partially, and non-color managed, particularly important.

                         

                        Not everyone thinks that absolute color perfection is the most important thing in the universe.  EVERYTHING about using a computer for graphics work and whatnot is a compromise.  Folks who imply there's only One Right Way to do color need to realize that their priorities and goals are not shared by everyone.

                         

                        I agree that education is very important, and I strongly support everyone reading up on and getting their mind around color-management, so as to be able to understand the compromises and make the best personal decisions.

                         

                        -Noel

                         

                         

                         

                        http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/images/dell_u2711/deltae_1.jpg

                        • 9. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                          gator soup Level 4

                          I really don't want to get into another color-management argument.

                           

                          i have to wonder why it seems every color management thread you participate in turns into an "argument" (and i've watched your pattern for some time now and i have certainly tried to accommodate your forum personality)

                           

                          re: your snide "Break"...  "Never"...  <shakes head>"

                           

                          are you attempting to jab at my post because that is a good example; my point could not be stated more clearly and is easily proved or disproved (if you care to disprove it i am all ears):

                           

                          if that means you set your...Windows default monitor profile to sRGB i highly recommend you read up on the benefits of monitor calibration (and get a custom monitor profile set as default) because that configuration breaks Photoshop's (and all colormanaged apps) ability to function as a fully colormanaged reference monitor


                          if you want an 'accurate' colormanaged viewing environment -- you should not set a device-independent profile (sRGB, Adobe RGB) as your monitor space

                           

                          i assumed your post 6 was your attempt to back out of your argument mode by getting in the last word, but personally, i find it tiresome to respond to your every snide comment and pointless overly-complicated "arguments" but that's just me

                           


                          • 10. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                            Noel Carboni Level 8

                            I'm not trying to be snide.  It's comments that make things sound like there's only one way to do things and that any other way is wrong that come across as digs.  Let's not forget who solved the problem here, THEN who chose to add their comments about that solution.

                             

                            Statements like "that configuration breaks Photoshop's (and all colormanaged apps) ability to function as a fully colormanaged reference monitor" and "this is exactly what one should never do if the goal is creating colors that can be reproduced as intended" can be interpreted as being critical of others' choices.

                             

                            The U2711 monitor's factory sRGB calibration when used with the sRGB profile may well be more accurate than the capability of the monitor to reproduce consistent color from edge to center to edge.

                             

                            -Noel

                            • 11. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                              gator soup Level 4

                              again, more pointless arguing

                               

                              if you can disprove what i wrote i am all ears (i really hate repeating myself)

                              • 12. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                                emil emil Level 4

                                I can't see the image form your link  in post #8, tt shows a blank page.

                                ...

                                 

                                1.  The sRGB preset is generally decently accurate on modern high-end monitors.  There is no sin in using the sRGB profile with such a monitor.

                                I started to learn in depth color management after I bought my wide gamut u2711 monitor. I know very well how Michael feels I went through the same thing. Using the sRGB preset on u2711 gives a completely different colors than the true sRGB color space and I felt throwing my new monitor through the window. With u2711 monitor profile set to sRGB Michael will not see any difference between the different programs regardless what monitor preset is selected (Standard, Multimedia, Game, Warm, Cool, AdobeRGB, sRGB) the difference between these presets is different gamma curves and different intensity (backlit light) of the RGB signals but the chromaticity of the signals remain the same.

                                 

                                In spite of what you may assume I'm not a color perfectionist, I'm happy with something close enough. I have worked more than a decade as a professional graphic designer without knowing much about color management and I was able to print colors as intended all the time using my old Sony Trinitron crt tube. I didn't care about color profiles and color measuring devices. All my jobs and personal artworks were printed on a few different printers using the same print shop. At the beginning after making color proofs I would take the prints in front of my monitor and adjust the monitor to mach the print as much as I can. And I learned to expect how colors will print. So, basically I was in control or so I thought. Now after my old monitor is dead my new monitor doesn't want to display my artworks anywhere close as they were intended, among other things I'm also a digital artist and over the years created a lot of personal work referring to the display of my old monitor  without printing the artworks. And the print shop also replaced their printers. So now I faced the challenge of redoing my artworks because the colors are really very different from what was intended.

                                I don't want this to happen to anyone else.

                                • 13. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                                  Noel Carboni Level 8

                                  Already done.  I can't help it if you can't see it.  Maybe your monitor needs calibrating.

                                   

                                  -Noel

                                  • 14. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                                    Noel Carboni Level 8

                                    emil emil wrote:

                                     


                                    Using the sRGB preset on u2711 gives a completely different colors than the true sRGB color space

                                     

                                    Can you elaborate on this?  Because it doesn't seem to fit with the reviewers' colorimetric measurements?  Delta E values of such small numbers as 3 or 5 fall within the realm of differences in perception because of room lighting or paper whiteness.  Even good monitors can differ by this much from center to edge.

                                     

                                    Note that the monitor reviewers certainly were able to bring their particular copy of the monitor closer to ideal by profiling.  I'm not debating the potential increase in absolute accuracy through measurement and profiling (assuming the gear works).

                                     

                                    You're contending that the factory calibrated sRGB preset when used with sRGB is visibly off too much and that calibration brought that within the tolerances of your sensibilities.  Did I get that right?

                                     

                                    I defer to your observations.  I can't argue with personal experience.  I don't have a U2711 myself.

                                     

                                    But I do have monitors that faithfully reproduce sRGB (to a very small delta-E at the center, worse at the edges).  I do know the benefits in consistency of being able to use the sRGB profile for the monitors.

                                     

                                    -Noel

                                    • 15. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                                      gator soup Level 4

                                      I can't help it if you can't see it.  Maybe your monitor needs calibrating.

                                       

                                      what on earth are you talking about now

                                       

                                      me thinks you should have quit this one at your post six when you realized you had no relevant point to make

                                       

                                      or do you

                                      • 16. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                                        gator soup Level 4

                                        but a so-called "true sRGB color space" can easily be proofed on the 'calibrated' monitor in Photoshop by opening the sRGB reference document and applying the correct sRGB source profile

                                         

                                        and the difference between the 'calibrated' monitor space and the "true sRGB color space" can easily be observed in Photoshop by toggling a reference sRGB file in Soft Proof mode (View> Proof Setup: Monitor RGB)

                                         

                                        note: i am using 'calibrate' loosely here (i mean a properly profiled display environment, a proper device-specific default monitor profile)

                                        • 17. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                                          emil emil Level 4

                                          Is this the link? I hope it works when it is clicked here

                                           

                                          http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2711.htm

                                           

                                          The way I read this article is that it tells that Dell U2711 - Factory Settings, sRGB Mode is bad.

                                          • 18. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                                            Lundberg02 Level 3

                                            If the OP wants to see sRGB everywhere, why buy anything but a 100 dollar monitor?  The review of the U2711 at TFT Central clearly states that the factory sRGB is lousy, but profiling brings it to very good.

                                            The OP obviously has no idea what color management is and Noel [edited to remove charged language that can be interpreted as a personal insult of another forum member] has not helped his understanding of what he needs to do to remake his years of artwork.

                                            I'm tired of reading [edited to remove charged language that can be interpreted as a personal insult of another forum member]  about wide gamut.

                                             

                                            Message was edited by: TerriStoneCHL

                                            • 19. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                                              Noel Carboni Level 8

                                              Whatever.  Sorry I said anything.  Knock yourselves out, folks.

                                               

                                              -Noel

                                              • 20. Re: Photoshop CS6 & Dell U2711 Colour Issues
                                                MichaelBoniwell Level 1

                                                Yikes, that's a confusing amount in info everyone. I'm clearly out of my depth here. I love photography, but hate post processing. I try to do as little as possible. For me the enjoyment is capturing the image, not mucking with it afterwards. All I usually do is recover blown highlights from brackets shots, stitch frames together, up the vibrance a bit, remove any dust spots and that's it for landscapes. To me that stuff is a necessary evil.

                                                 

                                                All I want to achieve is to know that my photos are a "reasonably close" match when viewed across different monitors, computers, and prints. Until I bought the U2711 I was achieving that happily. I've had thousands of prints made from many different printing companies, and viewed my own website on dozens of different machines, web browsers, over many years. So far my work looks "reasonably close" across them all. That's all I need.

                                                 

                                                I'm passionate about photogrpahy, but the computer time is a chore. I'm sitting here right now, restraining our 2 year old from the keyboard. My time is very limited. The solution provided, to me, is wonderfull. I know what my work should look like, and with sRGB set as suggested in the OS colour management, and the Dell set to sRGB preset I'm back to seeing what I expected.

                                                 

                                                I'm editing in AdobeRGB so I have more colours during the editing phase. I can't see them, but I'm assuming they are there and helping. I brought the U2711, optimistically thinking I could understand how to use the wider colour space, but clearly it's harder than I expected.

                                                 

                                                Boy is crying. That's my time gone again. Thanks guys.