17 Replies Latest reply on Feb 24, 2013 11:28 AM by DrDave42

    Reverse Telecine

    johnsirabella Level 1

      Hello All,

       

      Does anyone know how to do a reverse telecine in any of the software in CS6?

       

      Thnk you all for reading.

       

      -john

        • 1. Re: Reverse Telecine
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          PP does this automatically when you add 24p media with pulldown to a 24p sequence.

          • 2. Re: Reverse Telecine
            johnsirabella Level 1

            OK so maybe I am doing the wrong question, meaning many times I am getting TV masters that are in 60i but there native format is either 24p or 29.97 and would like to reverse telecine (think the right term) to their native format.

             

            Can and how would that be done in premiere?

             

            -john

            • 3. Re: Reverse Telecine
              Jim_Simon Level 8

              Yes, by adding it to a 24p sequence.

               

              (On a side note, there is no such thing as 60i.  That's a misnomer that technically means 60 interlaced frames per second, which simply doesn't exist.  The correct label is 30i, and is the same thing as 29.97.)

              • 4. Re: Reverse Telecine
                SimonHy Level 2

                Jim Simon wrote:

                 

                (On a side note, there is no such thing as 60i.  That's a misnomer that technically means 60 interlaced frames per second, which simply doesn't exist.  The correct label is 30i, and is the same thing as 29.97.)

                The fact that many of the presets within Premiere itself are written as 1080i60 would seem to disagree with you. Plus many professionals around the world prefer the term 60i.

                 

                Both terms are correct, and there's a lot of regional variations as to which one is more commonly used. I think you're taking a very prescriptive view of language where a descriptive view is more appropriate.

                • 5. Re: Reverse Telecine
                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                  The longhand convention is horizontal resolution, followed by the i or p as appropriate, followed by a slash, followed by the FRAME RATE.  1080i/30

                   

                  The short form is to drop the resolution and move the i or p after the FRAME RATE.  30i

                   

                  No matter how many people insist on listing field rate doesn't make it right.  You never say a "female woman" as all woman are female.  Similarly, you never say "interlaced fields" as all video fields are interlaced.  Both are redundant and improper grammar.

                   

                  If you specify interlaced or progressive, then you only say frames, and thus only ever list the FRAME RATE.  Hence, 60i does not exist.  When people say that, they are incorrectly saying 30i.

                   

                  Adobe seems to recognize this as sequence presets are correctly listed as 25 or 30 frames, even when interlaced (with the incorrect designation following in parenthesis as an aid to understanding simply because so many others do get it wrong).

                   

                  The point here is uniformity, so that everyone is on the same page.  So much confusion has been caused by not following the convention above.  It's best not to continue that trend.

                  • 6. Re: Reverse Telecine
                    SimonHy Level 2

                    Conventions change. There's nothing magic about frame rates that mean they have to be the convention, and typing it in all caps doesn't make it true.

                     

                    Of course you can say "interlaced fields". In the same way that you have said :"fields are interlaced", you can re-phrase that as "they are interlaced fields". It's a verb and a noun, the verb qualifies the noun, there's nothing grammatically incorrect about it. Totally different  grammatical structure to "female woman". Just because something is implied or redundant doesn't make it wrong, it's called clarifying.

                     

                    And that's at the heart of why I prefer 60i. I've had so many people express confusion about how interlacing works, or just plain get it wrong, and the most common mistake I've come across is that the two fields are recorded at the same time. Once you clarify that there are 60 increments of time recorded in a 60i clip, it makes a lot more sense to people. 60i puts that out there and makes it clear from the start. Much better.

                     

                    But that's just my opinion. If you prefer 30i as a term that's fine with me, but it is a subjective opinion, not an objective one.

                    • 7. Re: Reverse Telecine
                      johnsirabella Level 1

                      Sorry for the late getting back to this thread but I finally had to take an HD capture from Japan TV which according to the master is 1080/60i and wanted to REV TELECINE to 24p which I believe was the movie's native format.

                       

                      The sequence I placed it in is the Arri, 24p.  I kept the sequence settings the same when placing it but when I wanted to output it back to Prores HQ, it did not give me the option for Progressive.  I than decided to output it but movie inspector does not say it is progressive.

                       

                      Can someone give me the sequence of steps to do the reverse telecine or has a link or document with the instructions.

                       

                      Thanks for reading and thanks for any help you can give.

                       

                      -js

                      • 8. Re: Reverse Telecine
                        joe bloe premiere Level 5

                        I prefer doing this in Ae... either natively or with a plugin (ReVision FieldsKit).

                         

                        Remove 3:2 or 24Pa pulldown from video

                         

                        Edit:

                        Keep in mind that if the piece was edited @29.97, it is unlikely

                        that the 3:2 sequence will be the same from shot to shot.

                        In fact, you will likely end up with some incomplete frames @24p.

                        • 9. Re: Reverse Telecine
                          johnsirabella Level 1

                          Thank you for the great link.

                           

                          If I get the plug in will that deal with the issue if the piece was edited in 29.97.  I will never know if it was but my best guess would be is that it was edited in 24p as it is a very recent feature.

                           

                          Is revision the better way to go in geneal?

                           

                          -js

                          • 10. Re: Reverse Telecine
                            joe bloe premiere Level 5

                            If I get the plug in will that deal with the issue if the piece was edited in 29.97.

                            Nope.

                            And, there is nothing lesser about using the native

                            method in Ae that is described in the link above.

                            my best guess would be is that it was edited in 24p as it is a very recent feature.

                            My best guess (if it was shot on film @24 and transfered in telecine to 29.97)...

                            it was probably edited @29.97.

                            Is revision the better way to go in geneal?

                            I assume you mean reverting to 24p...  it depends on what you intend to do.

                            For example if you have 29.97 with 3:2 pulldown inserted and need to do

                            a composite with that clip, it is imperative to remove the fields.

                            • 11. Re: Reverse Telecine
                              johnsirabella Level 1

                              Good question about my final use which I have not made clear.

                               

                              We will be distributing the movie here in the USA on DVD and new media like Itunes and the likes.  They are a bit laxy and instead of giving us the HD masters in native format they give us their TV masters.

                               

                              My best guess is that it was not shot on film but HD and the reason why I believe they edited it in 24 and than for TV added the 3:2 pulldown so now we have to remove it.  We have usually sent this out to get done and has worked well but with so many we deal with and we now have the software we want to do in house.

                               

                              Given the above if we do in native AE do you believe it can be done?  Has the guess 3:2 pulldown been pretty on point?

                               

                              Thanks again

                              • 12. Re: Reverse Telecine
                                joe bloe premiere Level 5

                                In your case, I would suggest following Jim Simon's advice in posts #1, 3 & 5.

                                 

                                Doing 3:2 removal for bulk footage in Ae is not really practical.

                                Ae is best when you need to remove, comp, then add the 3:2 back.

                                • 13. Re: Reverse Telecine
                                  johnsirabella Level 1

                                  I did try that but when doing the output and using movie inspector to review it, it does not say that it is 24p.    Is there an article on how to do it in Premiere?

                                   

                                  I may be missing a step as I just drop it n the sequence and than try and output.

                                   

                                  -john

                                  • 14. Re: Reverse Telecine
                                    joe bloe premiere Level 5

                                    Ok.

                                    If I were in your place, I would take one of your field encoded broadcast

                                    program masters into Ae and run a test to see how long it takes to remove

                                    the 3:2 pulldown and re-encode to a lossless 24p file for editing.

                                    At that point, you can use a native frame rate sequence in Premiere

                                    to speed up your editing, and you will have a 24p master for your archives.

                                     

                                    Whatever method you choose, there is no reason for you to send this

                                    job out of house... you have the tools in hand if you have the time.

                                    • 15. Re: Reverse Telecine
                                      johnsirabella Level 1

                                      Thanks for that.  On a different note, there is a show I am doing now that they say is 29.97 native but for some reason I find it hard to believe they would still do that now.

                                       

                                      Is there anyway for me to check if that is the native format or not?  Will any program be able to tell if a 3:2 pulldown is there or not? 

                                       

                                      Thanks for all this help and tomorrow I will be doing the work you suggested.  I agree that I have all the tools and see no reason to send again out of house.

                                       

                                      -john

                                      • 16. Re: Reverse Telecine
                                        joe bloe premiere Level 5
                                        ...there is a show I am doing now that they say is 29.97 native but for some reason I find it hard to believe they would still do that now.

                                        It is not at all unusual or outdated to shoot and edit at 29.97i.

                                        Is there anyway for me to check if that is the native format or not?  Will any program be able to tell if a 3:2 pulldown is there or not? 

                                        If every frame is interlaced, the footage is likely native 29.97i.

                                        If the interlacing follows a 3:2 pattern (three non-interlaced frames

                                        followed by two interlaced frames, repeat) the footage is likely

                                        native 24p converted to 29.97i.

                                         

                                        Here are some resources to aid in understanding:

                                        Fields and Interlacing

                                         

                                        Interlaced video and separating fields

                                        • 17. Re: Reverse Telecine
                                          DrDave42 Level 1

                                          Most people use After Effects to remove pulldown, and it usually works very well. Some people do the pulldown and preliminary grading in AE, then import it into PP for cutting, sort of the opposite of what you might find ideal in terms of workflow. Although technically Premiere Pro should remove the pulldown on the fly, if you compare individual frames with properly removed pulldown you will sometimes see strange artifacts and distortion. Whether this affects all cameras I can't say, but it is a problem with all my Canon and Panasonic cameras and camcorders (put not if you shoot real 24p, obviously).

                                           

                                          So short answer, AE for pulldown, if using PP render out a few test frames to see if you are happy with the result.

                                          I usually set AE to "guess" the pulldown.