18 Replies Latest reply: Jan 13, 2013 2:27 PM by Stephen Pickering122 RSS

    Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.

    Stephen Pickering122 Community Member

      Hi everyone,

       

      I am at a loss as to what to try next and I've wasted a lot of time with trial and error.

       

      No matter how I export my file I get poor results with artifacting around edges as well as in solid areas.  The file I am trying to compress is a DNxHD (.mxf) file exported from Premiere Pro cs6.  The reason I'm using this file instead of a direct export from PP is because I have heavy effects on the timeline which I cannot afford to re-render multiple times.  The DNxHD file looks good. The file is 1080i 29.97 upper.

       

      In AME I've tried the presets for "Highest Quality" as well as tweaking things myself.  I'm always using "Maximum Depth" and "Maximum Render Quality."

       

      I do a lot of compression for web but I know for a fact other DVD projects of mine have had much better quality than this.  Am I missing something, doing something wrong, or is there another step I can try?

       

      Incase it matters, one of the four camera angles was progressive but was dropped into an interlaced sequence within PP.  The rendered DNxHD is interlaced.

       

      Thank you for any thoughts,

       

      Stephen

        • 1. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
          Stephen Pickering122 Community Member

          In the past I had come accross Jeff Bellune's HD to SD tutorial but I had thought it would be outdated by now with CS6.  Maybe I'll give that a try and see what happens.

           

          But any suggestions would be welcome.  Thanks!

           

          -Stephen

          • 2. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
            SAFEHARBOR11 Community Member

            Hi Stephen,

             

            What is the program length, and what data rate did you encode at? Regarding "Max Bit Depth", the research I've done indicates this box would NOT be checked most of the time. Useful if source video is 10-bit, or using 32-bit effects in the sequence. However, then ALL effects must be 32-bit, and any single 8-bit effect used will force ALL effects to render at 8-bit quality. Just read this at Adobe. So "Max Render Quality" is a YES when downscaling, while "Max Bit Depth" I would not check, though I don't know if it would cause any harm, other than maybe taking longer?

             

            I have used the Jeff Bellune methods with Dan Isaac's "HD2SD" aviSynth scripts, lots of work to get it all installed and working but did produce some nice results. Many many hours of trial and error with settings though. Did not use a frame server out of Premiere, rather I exported HD sequence to the Lagarith lossless codec and then did the conversion operations on that file. In that workflow, also used "HC encoder" for the final MPEG-2 render for DVD, then authored in Encore. There are many different MPEG-2 engines out there if you don't get the desired results with the Adobe model.

             

            Thanks

             

            Jeff Pulera

            Safe Harbor Computers

            • 3. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
              Stephen Pickering122 Community Member

              Thank you for your help Jeff,

               

              The project length is less than 40 minutes so I encoded at 6 cbr. (Years ago higher bit rates caused stutter issues for a few clients).  I've tried many variations of 1 pass, 2 pass, vbr, cbr, etc. all with poor quality results.

               

              I didn't know that about Max Bit Depth, thanks for the info.

               

              I think my quality issues are directly related to interlacing...

               

              I just exported another project which was shot with a Canon t2i 1080p.  The resulting m2v looks great.  So... I think there is an issue with the interlaced footage/sequence.  It's been some time since I've worked with interlaced (and mixed progressive) for DVD output.  When I view the DVD on the TV I notice interlacing (especially durring camera flashes).  I'm watching the DVD on a set top DVD player connected to my HD LCD tv.  Sorry, I don't recall how DVD players/LCD tv handle interlacing- should I be able to see the interlacing in the camera flashes?  I don't think I should be able to...  When it's paused it looks horribly blocky.

               

              I'm wondering if maybe the footage is reversing the field order somehow.  Using MediaInfo I can confirm:

              • the original raw files are interlaced upper field first (except 1 file which is progressive).
              • The sequence in PPRO was auto-created by dropping an interlaced file to "New Timeline"  Double checking under Sequence Settings shows it is interlaced with Upper Field First.
              • The exported MXF file is interlaced uff.
              • The encoded m2v file is interlaced uff.

              So if field order is swapped I don't know where it would be.

               

              Can you confirm that I should NOT be able to see interlacing (fine lines, not the accepted "flash banding") durring camera flashes at normal playback on the DVD.  The footage has not time scaling, only noise removal.

               

              If this is the case then at least I know the issue is with interlacing... how to fix it I don't know...

               

              PS- We were in touch with you earlier this year about Tricasters- you were a great help!

               

              -Stephen

              • 4. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                SAFEHARBOR11 Community Member

                Hi Stephen,

                 

                Please note that NTSC is LFF, so that may be your issue if your .m2v is UFF. Yes, HD is UFF, but Adobe converts that to LFF when you use the "MPEG-2 DVD > NTSC Widescreen" preset. Did you modify the field settings? That said, beginning with CS6, Encore now does allow UFF for DVD, but I have not done testing to see how that all looks compared to LFF. Would make sense to me that since HD is uFF, let's keep it UFF all the way, but not sure what that does to DVD players so I would recommend the standard LFF setting and see what that does for you.

                 

                And for data rate, I'm old school like yourself and shy away from maximum data rates for DVD, and we probably don't need to with newer players, but I would at least bump it up to 7 and that should be very safe. A lot of guys online swear by using 8 or more on every project, so maybe we are worried about nothing ;-)

                 

                And with high bitrates, I just use CBR all the time. Oner more thing, there is the "quality" slider that defaults to "4" and I read in Adobe literature somewhere that "5" is not always better, depends on many factors, so if you changed that it could possibly produce worse results than 4, which I think is counterintuitive, but whatever.

                 

                So try a sample using "NTSC widescreen high quality" preset, and ONLY change data rate to CBR 7, and check "Max Render Quality" and leave the rest of the settings alone and see what that does for you.

                 

                Thanks

                 

                Jeff Pulera

                Safe Harbor Computers

                • 5. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                  JSS1138 CommunityMVP

                  Please note that NTSC is LFF, so that may be your issue if your .m2v is UFF.

                   

                  NTSC can be either.  DV is LFF, but most DVDs are UFF, and all HD is UFF.  So that would be the correct field order on this one.

                  • 6. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                    JSS1138 CommunityMVP

                    Here's what I use for excellent quality.

                     

                    http://www.bitburners.com/hc-encoder/

                     

                    HC 1.png

                     

                    HC 2.png

                     

                    You'll want to change the Interlacing options on the Settings 1 page to suit, but the rest will produce better quality than AME is capable of.  (Be sure to hit the Make DVD Compliant button just before encoding.)

                    • 7. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                      SAFEHARBOR11 Community Member

                      Hi Jim,

                       

                      I stand corrected then. With prior versions of Encore, it would not take an .m2v with UFF, plus with DV being LFF and LFF being the default encode setting for MPEG-2 DVD, figured that was proper. Will experiment with UFF workflow then as I just completed an HD project and need to get that off to DVD.

                       

                      Thanks

                       

                      Jeff

                      • 8. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                        JSS1138 CommunityMVP

                        With prior versions of Encore, it would not take an .m2v with UFF,

                         

                        Actually it would.  I tested it.  I think what earlier versions had the issue with was Dynamically Linked content.  But exported files have always worked either way.

                        • 9. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                          SAFEHARBOR11 Community Member

                          Encoded and burned my wedding video job twice last night, as UFF and LFF. Coming from 1080i HDV. When viewed, both DVDs exhibited the exact same interlacing artifacts, I saw no difference. Anywhere there are horizontal or near-horizontal lines, whenever the camera pans or zooms, it blows up! All of those lines come alive shimmering and stairstepping. The rest of the image looks fine, just those edges go nuts. Right now rendering the long encode using AviSynth and HD2SD workflow to see what happens.

                           

                          Jeff

                          • 10. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                            Stephen Pickering122 Community Member

                            I just tried a small clip which is HD UFF.  I encoded it as LFF and the quality is MUCH better- but again still has the alternating lines durring flashes or extremely fast movement.  I also used only 4 quality (instead of the assumed 5 being better), I used 7CBR and unchecked Max Depth.  Not sure what all made the difference but it's much better.  Over the weekend I might try some other tests to see if I can get rid of the interlacing atrifacts but LFF seemed to make a world of a difference.

                             

                            I'll update this with any progress.  Also, I converted to 720x480 lagarith AVI first for the scaling, then encoded the AVI to m2v.

                             

                            Let me know what you find out about using AviSynth, I hate learning new workflows if another workflow gets the job done, but I'd be up for learning it if it's that much better.

                             

                            Thanks guys!

                             

                            -Stephen

                            • 12. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                              SAFEHARBOR11 Community Member

                              Panasonic 720p 50" plasma, coming from Sony Blu-ray via HDMI (upconvert from DVD)

                               

                              If you tell me I can't watch interlaced material properly on a 720p monitor my head will explode. Who invents a monitor that only works with certain kinds of source footage? I really miss the days of SD only, it was so simple

                               

                              Thanks

                               

                              Jeff

                              • 13. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                                JSS1138 CommunityMVP

                                Who invents a monitor that only works with certain kinds of source footage?

                                 

                                Well, the question is actually "who spends more money on an inferior TV just because it's thinner?"

                                 

                                The answer is "everyone", else we'd still have cheaper and better quality CRTs available that actually can display an interlaced signal.

                                 

                                Still, most modern HDTVs should do a passable job of deinterlacing your DVD.  What output settings on the Blu-ray?  (For example, I have mine send out 720p/60 for all content, regardless of the source resolution and frame rate.)

                                • 14. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                                  SAFEHARBOR11 Community Member

                                  The Blu-ray is outputting 720p/60 and I also tried 1080i, no difference at the display end.

                                   

                                  Thanks

                                   

                                  Jeff

                                  • 15. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                                    JSS1138 CommunityMVP

                                    Curious.

                                     

                                    What model HDTV?

                                     

                                    What model camera?

                                     

                                    What sequence settings?

                                    • 16. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                                      SAFEHARBOR11 Community Member

                                      Hi Jim,

                                       

                                      50" LG 720p (don't have model # handy, about 3-4 years old I guess, got it used)

                                       

                                      Sony FX-7 HDV shooting 1080i and using HDV 1440x1080i 29.97 sequence

                                       

                                      Export to MPEG-2 DVD NTSC Widescreen High Quality, using "Max Render Quality".

                                       

                                      Image on DVD looks great comong off Sony Blu-ray via HDMI, until cameras pans or zooms, then any near-horizontal lines get the shimmers really bad (rest of image always looks good, only the lines distort).

                                       

                                      Have not tried other displays, so possible the TV has something to do with it

                                       

                                      Thanks

                                       

                                      Jeff

                                      • 17. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                                        JSS1138 CommunityMVP

                                        Well, nothing in the work flow stands out as a potential problem..  I can only say that my own 1080i material exported to DVD looks just fine.

                                         

                                        Weird.

                                        • 18. Re: Getting poor quality from .m2v encoding with "highest quality" presets.
                                          Stephen Pickering122 Community Member

                                          Sorry to be MIA for so long.  Over Christmas I had a little bit of time to try out some more settings.

                                           

                                          One workaround for the "shimmers" I found was to export as a 720x480 Lagorith AVI.  But instead of interlaced I'm using progressive.  Then compressing the progressive AVI as an M2V.  So far I got pretty good results from this (compression quality-wise) and the interlacing issue is of course gone.  There's very little movement (camera pans of subjects walking) but not real "action" so I haven't noticed anything troubling with converting interlaced to progressive.

                                           

                                          I still would like to try some tests with AME 5.5 to see if there is anything different with that than 6.  I never noticed this before when I used 5.5 and always shot HD interlaced.  Since I switched to CS6 I've really only shot progressive until this project so I wonder if there is something different.  But Jim says it works fine for him... Maybe our TVs/Players are doing it?  (But this is the same TV and Player I've had without any problems in the past).

                                           

                                          Lots of variables to troubleshoot.  I'll post updates as I find out anything...