21 Replies Latest reply on Dec 21, 2012 2:48 PM by Jim_Simon

    Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6

    ptmvideo

      I'm editing some videos for a client.  He shoots with a Sony 150 and I'm capturing 1494 dv ntsc standard 48mghz.  In editing there areno shaky clips i.e. interlace effect.  However, after encoding using the media encoder to mpeg2-dvd, vbr, 4min, 7 max, target 5, 2 passes, I have extemely shaky clips.  Is there a better codec?  Any suggestions?   Can I purchase a codec plugin that will eliminate this problem?  Any suggestions are welcome!  I've also tried exporting directly into encore using the same settings as above and still have the same results.  I tried deinterlacing and flicker removal within prempro 6. before encoding and that does help the shakiness, however, there is considerable loss of video quality.  Thanks.

        • 1. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
          Dragonspear Level 1

          When you say "shaky" do you mean interlaced? See attached images. What does yours look like?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Indian_Head_interlace.gif

          ...or is the footage actually shaking up and down and all around like it was hand-held?

          What format is the source footage?

          What is the Sony 150? ...there are lots of Sony model camers with "150" in the name ^_^

          Did you try importing the TIMELINE into Encore. (i.e. do not export an mpg, just link encore to your project timeline and let encore transcode)

          ...so many questions^^

          • 2. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
            ptmvideo Level 1

            Hi Dragonspear

             

            Thanks for the help

             

            The footage, maybe 5-6 clips that appear at varying places in the video  (in other words not next to each other) look like the "flickering" right 2 clips on your Wiki link - they flicker like it's an interlace problem.  My client says it's a codec problem and wants me to use another codec.  I tried using quicktime, h264, and nothing has worked to eliminate the problem on these clips.  All other clips are fine. 

             

            The camera he shot it with is not HD it's a Sony DSR PD170 not 150.  I'm capturing  through adobe 1394, ntsc dv standard 48.  It comes in as an avi after capture.

             

            Yes, I tried going directly from the timeline using dynamic link and exported the sequence directly into encore and it appeared there, also.  When editing it in premiere you can see some flickering but not much.  It gets worse once it is encoded and there is condiserable loss of video quality when a deinterlace or flicker removal  effect is applied to the clips in prempro and then encoded as mpeg2 dvd. 

             

            Any suggestions?   thanks, again.

            • 3. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
              ptmvideo Level 1

              i'm sending you an example of the clip via yousendit.  this is the clip with no deinterlace or flicker removal applied.  view the area under the light left church peews.  is this a codec problem or deinterlace problem.  thanks.  hope i didn't overstep by boundaries with taking the liberty of sending you this clip.

              • 4. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                Dragonspear Level 1

                From what I can tell, this footage is being captured as interlaced.  The

                reason: The Sony DSR PD170 records video interlaced.

                From my own personal experience, the best thing you can do

                without losing clarity is make sure your timeline also shows that you are

                working with interlaced video, and then export as an mp2-dvd (interlaced)

                file. If you're settings are correct on export, it will create an audio and

                video file for each timeline you export.

                 

                In encore import the pair as a timeline. Next to the assets in your encore

                project window it should say "transcoded".

                Because it is interlaced you will nearly always see scanlines when viewing

                on a computer monitor (since most nowadays are progressive monitors). If

                you play it back on a TV or broadcast monitor, you'll likely see a big

                difference.

                 

                If none of this helps, send me a small avi capture and I'd be happy to take

                a look and see if I can yield any better results.

                 

                It might also help to have reference screen shots.

                 

                What does it look like before and after encode?

                 

                Lastly, make sure your graphics card drivers are fully up to date. Auto

                update isn't always reliable.

                 

                Cheers,

                Stephen

                • 5. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                  ptmvideo Level 1

                  HI Stephen/Dragonspear

                   

                  Thank you so much.   I will try your suggestions.  When setting up the sequence and choosing the preset dv ntsc standard 48k in the description it does indicate that it is interlaced.  Is this what you mean, Stephen?  However, when I export using mp2-dvd (I assume you mean mpeg2-dvd which has the extension m2v) there's not an option that indicates interlaced so I don't know how to to make the setting  mp2-dvd an interlaced file.  My settings for exporting mpeg2-dvd are the following

                   

                  ntsc widescreen high quality

                  2 passes

                  vbr min 4, target 6, max 7

                  and i have "use maximum renderting quality

                   

                  When I do export I can't get it to indicate "trasncoded" but it does say "Don't transcode".  Is this correct?  Wouldn't they be the same thing?  I am viewing it on a widescreen progressive tv (46").  Thanks, again, Stephen/Dragonspear

                  • 6. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                    Dragonspear Level 1

                    Thank you so much.   I will try your suggestions.  When setting up the sequence and choosing the preset dv ntsc standard 48k in the description it does indicate that it is interlaced.  Is this what you mean, Stephen?

                    Yes^_^ 

                     

                    However, when I export using mp2-dvd (I assume you mean mpeg2-dvd which has the extension m2v) there's not an option that indicates interlaced so I don't know how to to make the setting  mp2-dvd an interlaced file.  My settings for exporting mpeg2-dvd are the following

                     

                    ntsc widescreen high quality

                    2 passes

                    vbr min 4, target 6, max 7

                    and i have "use maximum renderting quality

                     

                    When I do export I can't get it to indicate "trasncoded" but it does say "Don't transcode".  Is this correct?  Wouldn't they be the same thing?  I am viewing it on a widescreen progressive tv (46").  Thanks, again, Stephen/Dragonspear

                    You are correct, I was referring to the mpeg2-dvd encode. You are also correct, if Encore sees that a file is already encoded for DVD (such is the case with the mpeg2-dvd format) then it will say "Don't transcode" All of your settings look good to me!

                     

                    Unfortunately, anytime you go from interlaced to progressive without de-interlacing...it doesn't always look so good. I can guarantee you that if you watched your DVD on a standard TV that used an interlaced display your video would look great. Without seeing anything else, the best you can probably do in this case is one of two things.

                    1. Go ahead and output your DVD as is with interlaced footage
                    2. De-interlace your footage prior to exporting to DVD and expect a slight loss in clarity

                     

                    If you tried telling the encoder to de-interlace and didn't like the results, there are other methods.  There are quite a few different pull-down methods for de-interlacing, and not all of them yeild the same results. I'm not sure what the default is for PremierPro de-interlacing. Alternatively, there is an interesting thread here -> http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/50/857861

                    and one here: http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/2/937666 that discusses other options for de-interlacing footage. Apparently the timewarp function in AfterEffects can serve nicely as a de-interlacer and noise remover...I'm going to have to try this myself! ^^

                     

                    Unfortunately, in your case, I believe it is a limitation of working with interlaced footage, and nothing else.

                    • 7. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                      ptmvideo Level 1

                      Thank you for all you help and suggestions, Stephen.  I really appreciate it

                      • 8. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                        Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        I used to own the 2100 nearly the same as the 170.

                        Do not de-interlace.

                        Export to mpeg2-dvd, lower field and widescreen, set bitrate to 2.8-7-8 and encoding to VBR2

                        Check Use Max Render Quality and no Use Preview files (just incase..).

                        Multiplexer to None and audio to DD.

                        This will give you two files m2v and ac3.

                        Drop this into Encore. Encore will have set it to Do not Transcode.

                        Make menu and burn. Or make iso and burn with e.g. Nero.

                        Watch this dvd on a regular tv.

                        When watching on a big hdtv use a BD player or dvd player with upscaler.

                        • 9. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                          ptmvideo Level 1

                          Thanks Ann.  Am encoding as you suggested now.  Will let you know how it works.  I really appreciate your comments!

                          • 10. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                            SAFEHARBOR11 Most Valuable Participant

                            I have to disagree with the comment that the progressive TV is to blame. If that were the case, then Hollywood DVDs and mostly everything you watch would have the jitters since that content is interlaced usually. I do agree to never judge using the computer monitor, definitely go to a set top DVD player and TV when "proofing", and use upscaling DVD hardware for HDTV viewing. Do not use a composite cable from DVD player to HDTV, this looks nasty as Ann mentioned, since the TV then does the upscaling.

                             

                            Regarding the bitrate recommendations, I have not seen the poster state the length of the project anywhere. This definitely plays a part - if encoding 90-120 minutes for instance, then an average of "7" is not going to work, would require another transcode in Encore. What is the length of the project?

                             

                            One thing to check - the Sony VX1000/2100 and PD150/170 cameras do offer the ability to shoot in a 16:9 mode; however, it sucks! It uses only part of the image sensor and does some funky scaling to produce the anamorphic widescreen result, and all the years I used those cameras, I refused to shoot in 16:9 because to me the scaling issues looked terrible. Any chance that the video on tape is actually 16:9? Because if it is and it was captured as 4:3, this could produce the results you are seeing to some degree.

                             

                            Ann - always appreciate your expertise here so I have a question. My understanding is that "Max Render Quality" is only beneficial for scaling, from everything I have read about it. Going from DV to DVD there is no scaling, so it that step necessary?

                             

                            Thanks

                             

                            Jeff Pulera

                            Safe Harbor Computers

                            • 11. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                              ptmvideo Level 1

                              Thanks, Safeharbor

                               

                              The entire project is about 1hour 45 minutes broken into 4 sequences: 

                               

                              getting ready about 5 minutes

                              ceremony about 35

                              reception about 55

                              summary about 10 minutes

                               

                              can you suggest another bitrate that might be better in eliminating the flickering without a loss of video clip quality

                               

                              Thanks, again.

                               

                              Joe

                              • 12. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                                SAFEHARBOR11 Most Valuable Participant

                                Hi Joe,

                                 

                                Unfortunately, bit rate has nothing to do with "flickering", you have something else going on there. Whether in the edit/encoding process, or maybe it is the viewing hardware setup, I don't know at this point.

                                 

                                For 105 minutes, you should be able to encode at 5.4 and fit the material on the DVD. There are many free "bit rate calculators" on the web to help determine the setting based on video length. Adobe does this automatically when using Dynamic Link but I like to manage my own encode settings. If you think you will use motion menus or other assets that will take more space, you might encode at 5.3 to give yourself a little safety margin then, up to you.

                                 

                                Thanks

                                 

                                Jeff Pulera

                                Safe Harbor Computers

                                • 13. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                                  then Hollywood DVDs and mostly everything you watch would have the jitters since that content is interlaced usually.

                                   

                                  Actually since most Hollywood DVDs are film sourced, they're encoded on disk as 24p.

                                  • 14. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                                    ptmvideo Level 1

                                    appreciate all the help,  thanks!  keep the suggestions coming.  i'm trying all of them.

                                    • 15. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                                      Harm Millaard Level 7

                                      That woulde mean I can't play any Hollywood DVD's, since my DVD player cannot accept progressive material and alternate framerates. That is not the case.

                                       

                                      All Hollywood DVD's are distributed within an interlaced wrapper. 30i for the US and 25i for almost the rest of the world and close vicinity, including all the planets in our galaxy.

                                      • 16. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                                        SAFEHARBOR11 Most Valuable Participant

                                        Thank you Harm, I was beginning to doubt sanity! I do know that most Hollywood movies are sourced as 24p, but I thought they were delivered as interlaced with pulldown added, or if the DVD is 24p, then the player adds the pulldown, I dunno, but in any case NTSC output has to be interlaced, right?!

                                         

                                        Thanks again

                                         

                                        Jeff

                                        • 17. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                                          Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          Ann - always appreciate your expertise here so I have a question. My understanding is that "Max Render Quality" is only beneficial for scaling, from everything I have read about it. Going from DV to DVD there is no scaling, so it that step necessary?

                                          I helps improve renders that rely on cpu

                                          I do not know if TS has mpe hardware or software.

                                          • 18. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                                            Jim_Simon Level 8

                                            That woulde mean I can't play any Hollywood DVD's, since my DVD player cannot accept progressive material and alternate framerates.

                                             

                                            No, that's not would it would mean, since this was part of the DVD spec from it's inception and all DVD players can add the appropriate 3:2 pulldown at the output.

                                             

                                            Being encoded in an interlaced wrapper, with both fields coming from the same moment in time, is not the same and will not look the same as normal interlaced material, where each field is taken at a different moment in time.

                                             

                                            And no, the output does not have to include pulldown or be interlaced.  All Blu-ray players and even many more recent DVD players are capable of outputting the original 24p signal.  It's a metter of whether or not your TV can handle such a signal.

                                             

                                            My point is that a flat panel might well play 24p Hollywood DVDs just fine, but have issues with genuinely interlaced content, since all consumer flat panels are progressive by design and might not deinterlace very well.

                                            • 19. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                                              Harm Millaard Level 7

                                              It's a metter of whether or not your TV can handle such a signal.

                                               

                                              Wrong Jim, it's a matter of whether the DVD player can handle such a signal, and I have various old DVD pl.ayers that are not capable of playing P material, unless it is wrapped in an i wrapper. EOS.

                                               

                                              Check some old goodies and check their encode settings with MediaInfo or similar and they all show up as I material. Either MediaInfo, my players, and the DVD's themselves are all wrong in concert, or you could be wrong. I think the latter is more probable.

                                              • 20. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                                                Dragonspear Level 1

                                                http://www.videohelp.com/calc.htm

                                                 

                                                Like Jeff said, bit rate changes won't fix flickering, but if you're interested in knowing how much bitrate you can get away with there are lots of free calculators out there. (like the one above)

                                                I made an excel spreadsheet for stuff like that, but I'm not at home. Otherwise I'd post it for you.

                                                • 21. Re: Shaky video after encoding to mpeg2dvd from prempro 6
                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                  Either MediaInfo, my players, and the DVD's themselves are all wrong in concert, or you could be wrong.

                                                   

                                                  Neither.  Yes, the 24p source is stored on the disk as interlaced, and with older players it usually comes out as 30i.  But with a lot of newer players and all Blu-ray players, it is also just as capable of coming out as the original 24p.

                                                   

                                                  This is all ancillary to the point I was trying to make.  Jeff made the argument that if the TV was to blame, than Hollywood DVDs will also exhibit the same artifacts, and that's not necessarily true.  Because it is possible to get the original 24p off the DVD, it is also possible to display that progressive signal on an HDTV bypassing the TV's deinterlacing.  But with 30i source, deinterlacing will come into play on a flat panel, whether by the player or the TV itself.  So it's entirely possible for Hollywood DVDs to look great and DV sourced disks to exhibit artifacts.  THAT is the point I'm making here.  It is possible for the TV itself to be the culprit.