34 Replies Latest reply on Jan 20, 2013 1:36 PM by jmpreston

    Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?

    jmpreston

      I have a nice HP Win 7 12GB setup with 3 TB hard drives.  Rendering is very good with 3 drives but with only 2 it was not so good.  However, I'm converting to MacBook Pros and I'm curious if I still need 3 hard drives or if one Flash drive works as well.  Or should I spread the load between one onboard Flash memory drive and external HD's with a Thunderbolt connection?

       

      Anyone tried this?  My videos rarely exceed 15 minutes at 1080P.  They are usually mountain biking.  I also use 3DS Max for 3D graphics and that program likes multiple HD's for rendering.  I'm exploring using only MacBook Pro Retinas with 27" Thunderbolt Displays for post processing and 3D CG.  I'm looking at a significant investment in software upgrades so I would love to know more before I get deeper in debt :-)

       

      - Jim

        • 1. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
          Jeff Bellune Level 5

          [moved to hardware forum]

          • 2. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
            John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            Technology changes, but read before using an SSD for files

            SSD and Video Editing http://forums.adobe.com/thread/902915?tstart=0

            -and http://forums.adobe.com/message/4492104

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
              jmpreston Level 1

              Thanks John, those links are helpful.  So we still need multiple HDD's for post.  Of course storage shouldn't be on SSD's.

               

              My choice then is a Mac Pro with internal drives or MacBook Pro or iMac with external drives.  Has anyone used Premiere Pro with external drives to produce 1080p videos?  Is a Thunderbolt connection as good as internal drives for post?

               

              I've been on MS-DOS then Windows since 1984.  I've had enough.  I'm now completely in love with OSX.  I'm doing far less IT work on my systems and with swiping  between multiple desktops I need less monitors.  My office is de-cluttering :-)

               

              Jim

              • 4. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                I am Windows, but a "general" note on external drives

                 

                External eSata or USB3 are both fast enough for video editing... eSata is better - http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1117813

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                  Thunderbolt is as good as internal drives up to about 500 to 600MB/s last I checked. Keep in mind though if your going to use TB output for Displays then latency between the 2 streams and dealing with the constant high bandwidth of video output will slow the storage bandwidth down. You also may run into crashing issues with GPU acceleration based applications.

                   

                  Eric

                  ADK

                  • 6. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                    jmpreston Level 1

                    Thanks Eric.  Your point about latency and crashing the GPU is my main concern but I'm not technical on that so I'm a little lost.

                     

                    Apple advertises Thunderbolt at 10 gigs/sec.  I think that is more than the typical speed between the internal hard disks, usually 3 for video and 3D CG, and the GPU and CPU but I'm not sure if there is equivalency of performance or if there are other factors.

                     

                    - jim

                    • 7. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                      ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                      Well the Thunderbolt spec is 10Gbit/sec not 10Gbytes a sec which is far different.  When you have 10Gbit's you have to divide by 8 to get the equivalent Bytes which is what I listed. Now the First generation TB controllers did not transfer at full bandwidth. There are some reports online you may see that explain why but I wont post them here. However the 1.2GB/sec of total throughput would be enough bandwidth to handle any storage requirement. However keep in mind that is the equivalent of a PCI-E 4X slot. Your standard video cards currently use PCI-E 16X slots which is far more bandwidth especially when your talking PCI-E Gen 2. You have to remember here there is allot of marketing behind Thunderbolt and expectations are as high as they were when USB released.

                       

                      Eric

                      ADK

                      • 8. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                        jmpreston Level 1

                        Ah, yes, my current GPU is on a 16x card.  Probably why it handles the Mercury Engine in PP so well with 1080p vids. 

                         

                        Sorry, I should have wrote Gbits/sec.  Maybe a few more years for Gbytes/sec :-)  Now I see where your # came from. 

                         

                        I currently have the following HDD config on my HP Win 7:

                         

                        C: Premiere Pro CS 5.5

                        D: Media storage

                        E: Swap files

                         

                        With a MacBook Pro the C: SSD would have PP and I would need two Thunderbolt drives for media and swap.  Does the GPU need all the 16X bandwidth for every drive during rendering or only RAM and the SSD?  If it does then iMacs and MacBooks suck for decent video and 3D CG work.

                        • 9. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                          ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                          A Couple things here concept wise. The Thunderbolt Host controller will negotiate ie traffic cop/control which device is communicating with the subsystem at that time. It will do so via some type of Firmware identities. This means it can differentiate between the data coming from the HDD's or other devices sending data versus data that is outputting ie video information. Like PCI-E, it does not require any device to bus master for communication. This means multiple devices can transmit simultaneously. So you can have multiple storage devices transmitting data to the system at the same time data is coming from the GPU. The problem here is really latency and load on the Thunderbolt controller. That controller is not a processor so it doesn't have nearly the power of a processing type component like the CPU or GPU. The TB controller has far less processing power but has to handle the different devices communicating through and sending that data to the designated location. This is where the latency comes into play. The more devices communicating the greater the latency is to process the traffic. The higher bandwidth devices such as video will require constant communication and will have problems with delays. That is why Apple states you need to have the display in the first device spot if you chain aTB devices with Displays. Your TB is not processing the GPU data. The video Processing is still handled by the GPU on your system. However the TB controller is handling the output data from the GPU versus a RAMDAC and that can be significant. That is why I dont recommend running the Display output via TB if your going to use TB storage. The PCI-E 16X bandwidth required by the video card is for all transmission to and from the video card for Processing. That does not mean the display output data requires all of that bandwidth as well. However it's still significant enough that you will use up the TB 1.2GB/sec very quickly and after that happens, then the load increases significantly on the TB controller as it then has to handle queues once again further increasing the latency.

                           

                          I would suggest going with a TB raid unit versus multiple drives and put all files including cache on the raid.

                           

                          Eric

                          ADK

                          • 10. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                            jmpreston Level 1

                            That's a lot of tech to digest :-)  I think I understand it though.  Maybe.  By adding another device I'm making the TB controller work too hard.

                             

                            When I've looked into RAID it seemed that the use was as either 2+ HDD's or for mirroring / backup.  For my work I didn't find RAID interesting.  However, if RAID would give me the functionality of 2 HDD's with TB that would be very interesting. 

                             

                            With my current setup I tried using only C: for programs and D: for media and cache / swap files.  PP's performance was poor, frequent crashes, so I added another HDD and performance is amazing.  Zero crashes with rendering the Mercury Engine works great for previews.

                             

                            So I'm reluctant to go back to one disk for media and cache unless I see that something would make it work this time.  Maybe RAID  will work???

                            • 11. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                              Alex - DV411 Level 2

                              Thunderbolt is as good as internal drives up to about 500 to 600MB/s last I checked.

                              Eric, have you tested any 6- or 8-bay TB arrays yet?  (I haven't.)  Like PCIe, TB is supposed to be a low latency / low overhead bus, so the speed will depend more on the RAID controller inside the box than on TB overhead.  E.g. Promise Pegasus R6 clocked 650MB/s write speeds in RAID5, suggesting that 8-bay models may be significantly faster.

                              Keep in mind though if your going to use TB output for Displays then latency between the 2 streams and dealing with the constant high bandwidth of video output will slow the storage bandwidth down.

                              Always thought data and display streams were separate and each carried a 10Gbs bandwidth - but now I am not sure.

                               

                              (Side note: it may be a moot point given that most storage I/O in video editing is going downstream (reading) while with displays - upstream (writing), and TB, like PCIe, is a full duplex protocol (simultaneous read/write I/O) but still...)

                              • 12. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                Always thought data and display streams were separate and each carried a 10Gbs bandwidth - but now I am not sure.

                                Four PCIe 2.0 lanes is 20GT/s - or roughly 20Gbs, and Thunderbolt's bandwidth is basically four PCIe 2.0 lanes?

                                • 13. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                  I have seen 5 bay units chained 4 deep and the speed maxed out at 500MB/s to 600MB/s but that was with the First Release TB controller that was slower than it should have been by the standard. An 8 bay unit on the new controller that released with the new Mac's and Z77 boards may very well increase the speed beyond what the 8 bay units can handle. However I have not tested those yet. The video does not have a separate channel by virtue of being video. The TB standard states the upstream and downstream are separate channels which means you have 10Gb/s up and 10Gb/s down. If the storage is just reading and you just have display out then they would be separate bandwidth by spec. However the Controller has to negotiate the traffic regardless of whether it's upstream or downstream and the video data stream has to be constant. When I have seen issues with Mac configurations with TB they almost always involve using TB for display output with TB storage as well. The load on the TB controller decides the latency and not whether it will function or not. This is the problem with the Marketing of TB. The marketing states you can daisychain all of these devices with video simultaneously but what isn't stated is what testing scenario's this was verified in. It could have been as simple as playing a media file from a storage unit out to a display with both on TB.

                                   

                                  I did not state PCI-E Gen 2 above so I meant PCI-E 4x Gen 1. I even stated that Gen 2 was even a higher bandwidth difference.

                                   

                                  Eric

                                  ADK

                                  • 14. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                    ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                    Adding more devices chained on TB doesn't necessarily mean the load to to great. It depends on what devices you add and what the communication time is per device. However each device will increase the latency because of the traffic moderation. Hence it is better to run a single drive raid versus multiple drives because the data stream may be greater to that one device but the controller only has 1 device to moderate. A TB raid unit could include a 2 drive raid 0 or 3 or more drive parity raid such as Raid 5. Both would give you greater speed than a single TB drive. If you keep the chain to 2 devices and the storage load is extremely heavy then you can likely get video display out TB as well while using the storage. Just keep in mind GPU acceleration application are far less forgiving of Display output latency than standard video applications.

                                     

                                    Eric

                                    ADK

                                    • 15. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                      jmpreston Level 1

                                      This is quite an education :-)

                                       

                                      Eric, I have two TB ports on my MacBook Pro Retina.  Does that mean two TB controllers or does it make the latency worse if I put the TB Display on one and a RAID unit on the other?

                                       

                                      Or should the RAID connect to the USB 3 port?

                                       

                                      It seems that if the display is doing nothing during rendering except for displaying the status of the rendering that it shouldn't require much TB attention and they may reduce latency issues.

                                       

                                      Jim

                                      • 16. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                        ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                        That is a very good question regarding the 2 TB ports on the Retina and Apple does not state whether each port has a separate TB Controller or channel or whether both are off the same controller. Since that is not stated that I have seen, I would assume that both ports share the same controller and therefore bandwidth. Ideally I would suggest using the TB for Storage and other devices and the HDMI for display output. If you cannot do that then using 1 port for storage and other devices and the other for Display would be the best configuration. USB3 would be better used for backup/archive storage.


                                        Eric

                                        ADK

                                        • 17. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                          jmpreston Level 1

                                          I assume that an external HDD has a controller in that unit that has similiar performance to the internal HDD controller for better models. So the only difference would be the effects of the TB controller on the external HDD because the internal HDD doesn't have that intermediary.  Would there be a material difference, say > 5%?

                                           

                                          It seems that if the TB controller plus external devices are only a little slower than internal HDD's then there won't be an important difference for typical short videos.

                                           

                                          My wife attended a seminar by Industrial Light & Magic regarding the whirlpool scene in Pirates of the Caribbean.  Rendering that scene took a server farm with extra generators brought in and a few days.  I consider that beyond the scope of what most of us would do on a MacBook Pro, or even a Mac Pro :-)  All we would have left is some charred aluminum and plastic.

                                           

                                          I think that most PP users only need a setup that will render decent videos for YouTube and such and we don't want to deal with crashes during rendering or editing.  While the TB setup probably won't reach the level of say a Mac Pro with multiple HDD's if we can get within maybe 5%, maybe 10%, that should be good enough.

                                           

                                          The Apple Thunderbolt Display doesn't have an HDMI or any other connector.  I'm not sure of the performance if I found a TB to HDMI adaptor.  The Cinima Display should work with that though.

                                           

                                          Jim

                                          • 18. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                            Until you start dealing with increased latency from moderating traffic to multiple devices or exceeding the bandwidth then the performance on TB will be the same as internal. The statements above were to advise of when that changes so your expectations were where they should be. The HDMI is ideal but as stated, you likely can get the TB display going provided you are not pushing the bandwidth with heavy storage traffic that has to be realtime because of playback in editing applications. That is really where the 2 really start showing a problem. Editing for YouTube videos is likely not going to push the bandwidth that high. The key to avoid crashes is to keep the latency low enough for the display output that it does not cause an issue with the GPU acceleration engine on playback. That is when you will see those crashes.

                                             

                                            Eric

                                            ADK

                                            • 19. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                              jmpreston Level 1

                                              Thanks Eric, this has been a very informative thread.

                                               

                                              With so many variables such as the TB controller and display setup, various models of RAID disks and GPUs, and then the demands of the application plus the project, it seems that they only way to know if a MacBook Pro with TB is up to the job is to try making a video and see what happens.

                                               

                                              I could download a trial version of PP for OSX.  The cost of experimenting would be whatever the external RAID setup is.  Unfortuately TB external duel disk setups are a bit expensive if you don't need more storage.

                                               

                                              - Jim

                                              • 20. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                The video does not have a separate channel by virtue of being video.

                                                Didn't say "video". Said "display", and I believe the link to the spec in my post clearly shows that display has a separate 10Gbs channel.  Data - its own full duplex 10Gbs, display - its own.  TB is I believe the only bus that has this feature (of separate full bandwidth full duplex channels) that's built into the spec.

                                                 

                                                I hope this is helpful.

                                                • 21. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                  Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                  With so many variables such as the TB controller and display setup, various models of RAID disks and GPUs, and then the demands of the application plus the project, it seems that they only way to know if a MacBook Pro with TB is up to the job is to try making a video and see what happens.

                                                  Jim,

                                                   

                                                  This looks like a lot of assumptions based a premise that a TB display shares its traffic with data (storage) on Thunderbolt. It doesn't.  A Thunderbolt display has its own dedicated 10Gbs channel even though it's daisy-chained to the back of the storage device.

                                                   

                                                  Which means that whatever your Thunderbolt display is, it won't affect storage speeds.

                                                  • 22. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                    jmpreston Level 1

                                                    Thanks Alex.  That info helps and rather amazing tech. Still, I would like someone's experience with rendering and using at least 2 external HDD's in a typical video post production setup.  I would rather not spend several hundred dollars to test it myself.  Crashes during rendering get old fast.

                                                    • 23. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                      Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                      Still, I would like someone's experience with rendering and using at least 2 external HDD's in a typical video post production setup.  I would rather not spend several hundred dollars to test it myself.  Crashes during rendering get old fast.

                                                      Jim,

                                                       

                                                      1. Crashes are much less likely to be related to drive speeds or configuration, and more likely - to bad or faulty components and buggy software. Rendering / encoding to a slow drive may be slow bit it shouldn't crash the system.  Something else is at work here, and you're right, usually not a good idea to throw good money after bad one.
                                                      2. 15 minutes (a day? a week?) of H.264-to-H.264 encoding or timeline rendering shouldn't be taxing on storage. H.264 is a low bandwidth format, and shouldn't sigjnificantly slow down on a system even with a very slow hard drive.  CPU is a different matter.  In other words, the situation you're describing, "Rendering is very good with 3 drives but with only 2 it was not so good" - is puzzling. This shouldn't be happening. Can you describe it a bit more?
                                                      3. If Thunderbolt's expensive, why invest in MBPs? Invest in Windows laptops. Less expensive, more options, brighter future, and hey, you could even install Linux on it.
                                                      • 24. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                        ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                        You should read the spec on TB. No where in the spec does it say display/video traffic are separate. The link you list in the post above actually shows a single pipeline for the TB traffic. It's only separate at the controller devices. Also if Display/video was separate bandwidth, not only would it be listed in the spec, but Apple would not state that the Display has to be first in the chain.

                                                         

                                                        Eric

                                                        ADK

                                                        • 25. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                          jmpreston Level 1

                                                          Alex,

                                                           

                                                          The extra hard disks aren't only for storage.  The swap files are on a separate disk.  Three disks is the recommended minimum configuration for Premiere Pro and 3ds Max rendering  and I have this on my HP 12 GB, i7, 3 multi-TB HDD's Win 7 computer.  When I tried using only two disks then renderings in H.264 would crash. Nothing new here.  Lots of people experience this and that is why 3 - 4 disks are recommended all over the Web.  I'm doing fine with 3 now.

                                                           

                                                          I've been on MS-DOS and then Windows laptops since the first Compaq in 1985.  I believe my experience with Windows in many different environments, countries, languages, and industries is a bit more than most people.  I have no idea how many computers I've worked with since the Radio Shack Tandy TRS-80 in 1977.  So I know something about the performance of laptops running Windows - even in revolutions...

                                                           

                                                          I've been running both Win and Mac for the past couple of years and although Win 7 is a very good O/S (finally) it sucks compared to OSX.  I've probably lost years of my life screwing around with MS-DOS and Windows.  I've had enough.  My businesses will be OSX powered in the future.  While I will have the HP for a while longer an older Dell with Win 7 will soon be on eBay as we phase out Windows.

                                                           

                                                          After I bought the MacBook Pro Retina last summer I wasn't using it much and thought I may have wasted my money.  Slowly I found myself migrating to it.  No real plan or some kind of fanboy infatuation.  I found I could get more work done and that is all that matters to me.  Finally it became obvious that like many Web and mobile app developers Windows is a thing of the past.

                                                           

                                                          If you don't value your time and attention and think that equipment cost is a major driver for you then please stay with Windows.  That ecosystem needs to make a living also.  Windows is way too expensive for me.  Us tech entreprenuers should value our time at between $1,000 - $2,000 per hour depending on lots of factors.  OSX is maybe 300% cheaper than Windows.  Probably more.

                                                          • 26. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                            Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                            You should read the spec on TB.

                                                            Happy New Year to you too, Eric.

                                                            Also if Display/video was separate bandwidth, not only would it be listed in the spec, but Apple would not state that the Display has to be first in the chain.

                                                            I don't know where Apple says that, but the spec wants legacy MDP devices to be at the end of the chain. Here is what Wikipedia says, and it's consistent with other sources:

                                                            "Older displays, using DP 1.1a or earlier, have to be located at the end of a Thunderbolt device chain, but native displays can be placed anywhere along the line." (Wikipedia, Apple Insider)

                                                             

                                                            ECBowen wrote:

                                                             

                                                            No where in the spec does it say display/video traffic are separate.

                                                            Eric

                                                            ADK

                                                             

                                                            What video?  Where are you getting "video" from?  There're two data streams (channels) the spec (and I) talk about, and that are relevant to this discussion:

                                                            1. Data
                                                            2. DisplayPort

                                                            https://www-ssl.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/images/diagrams/thunderbolt-block-diagram-450x450.png

                                                            So while technically you're right, it's not "display", it's "DisplayPort" (which could mean that unlike legacy DisplayPort displays, ThunderBolt ones share the traffic with data), this doesn't change a thing.  Still two independent full-bandwidth 10Gbs channels, and AnandTech's benchmark proves that display traffic is separate - even with ThunderBolt (and not legacy MDP) displays:

                                                            "If DisplayPort and PCIe traffic are indeed carried on separate channels, then the Thunderbolt Display by itself is eating up around 70% of the bandwidth of a single channel on its own (2560 x 1440 x 32bpp x 60Hz with 8b/10b encoding > 6.75Gbps). That leaves 10Gbps in each direction for PCIe traffic. If we look at our benchmarks from the previous section we see that we can hit just under 2Gbps with all of the auxiliary interfaces (GigE, FW800, USB2) running." ...

                                                             

                                                            "Next I connected the Thunderbolt Display directly to my test MacBook Pro, and then connected the Pegasus to it. I repeated the test, this time getting 900MB/s. Thankfully the presence of the Thunderbolt Display doesn't seem to impact the max data rate I can get from the Pegasus."

                                                             

                                                            Did that help?  If not:

                                                            • Apple: "With two channels of 10-Gbps throughput in both directions"
                                                            • Apple: "Thunderbolt I/O technology gives you two channels on the same connector with 10 Gbps of throughput in both directions."
                                                            • Wikipedia: "Thunderbolt: 10 Gbit/s × 2"
                                                            • 27. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                              Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                              Three disks is the recommended minimum configuration for Premiere Pro

                                                              Where? By who?  Adobe doesn't even require two as of CS6, only recommends, for a good reason.

                                                              When I tried using only two disks then renderings in H.264 would crash. Nothing new here.

                                                              It's new to me, and I've been working with video editing systems since narrow SCSI, Speed Razor and DPS PVR.  Further, a lot of editing laptops out there render / edit off of a single hard disk. This may make things slower but doesn't have to crash them.

                                                              I have no idea how many computers I've worked with since the Radio Shack Tandy TRS-80 in 1977.

                                                              If you remember punch cards and IBM System/360 then we're roughly on the same page (that's not me in the pic, my hair was much messier).

                                                              http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-F038812-0014%2C_Wolfsburg%2C_VW_Autowerk.jpg

                                                              although Win 7 is a very good O/S (finally) it sucks compared to OSX

                                                              Um, thanks, that will help round up this conversation.  We can get back to it when Apple announces EOL of OSX (in favor of iOS) much the same way they EOL'd their server products and other enterprise aspirations.  OSX is awesome, a really well executed UNIX skin, but it doesn't hold a candle to Windows OS family capabilities.

                                                               

                                                              Not to mention, Premiere Pro runs better on Windows (except with QT/ProRes files); hardware selection is immeasurably wider; some things can only be done on Windows (e.g. 16-core systems with 256GB RAM).

                                                               

                                                              Cheers.

                                                              • 28. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                                ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                I stated above that the TB spec supported 10Gbs spec supported 10Gbs in both directions. I also stated it did not mean the other direction was by default display data only. I am not sure why we are debating here because we are both saying the same thing with different examples. BTW I saw the position of the Display on a TB chain on Apples pages for TB.

                                                                 

                                                                Eric

                                                                ADK

                                                                • 29. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                                  jmpreston Level 1

                                                                  Alex,

                                                                   

                                                                  Regarding how and why to setup PP with multiple hard disks search "adobe premiere pro hard disk setup" for Adobe forums and other posts on this issue.  Lots to choose from.  Here is a recent one:  http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/931788.   Another: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/288611-32-video-editing.  Some guy posted a nice chart but I don't have time to find it again.

                                                                   

                                                                  Rendering crashed two Win computers with two HDD's; adding a 3rd for the scratch disk resulted in excellent performance.  That is the pattern I saw and may be the reason that so many pros, including those teaching at NAB Show, recommend at least a 3 HDD setup.  I'm not technical enough to know why this works but pointing PP from CS3 to CS5.5 and 3ds Max to 3 disks setup as recommended above works great.

                                                                   

                                                                   

                                                                  Actually Win 8 first got me interested in OSX for most of my work which is developing Web and mobile applications / potential businesses for my projects, not clients.  PP, 3ds Max, and other apps are secondary.  I was using a Mac Mini for our iPhone app development before the MacBook Pro but that was about all.  It took over a year to figure out that Mac beats Windows for my work.

                                                                   

                                                                  While Win 7 is fine I'm no longer interested in another Microsoft adventure and I'm no longer interested in taking down my desktop for every software update.  OSX rocks because most software updates without a reboot and the o/s opens all the apps on their proper desktops, yes, I love multiple desktops, so it doesn't disturb my workflow.  For my workflow Windows of any kind sucks compared to OSX.  Your workflow may be different and Windows is fine if you don't mind the inconveniences.

                                                                   

                                                                  Another small issue but here in Silicon Valley if you show up with a Windows computer at a tech event you look clueless.  Most developers are on Macs and have been for a long time. It is embarrassing to still be on Windows here :-)

                                                                   

                                                                  Of course OSX does not have good enterprise solutions but that is becoming less relevant.  I'm on LAMP of course and developing platform solutions for industry and consumers.

                                                                   

                                                                  As a teen I was inside programmer's offices on Baily Road south of San Jose as my friend's fathers were coding for the first IBM 360 :-)  Years later I did some coding with Fortran on punch cards.  I still wish CP/M won the O/S battle!

                                                                  • 30. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                                    ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                    Keep in mind Raid arrays are far faster and lower latency than single drives. You can go with an external raid and handle the media, cache, and output files on the same array. The deciding factor is the media you work with decides the raid array requirements to do this.

                                                                     

                                                                    Eric

                                                                    ADK

                                                                    • 31. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                                      jmpreston Level 1

                                                                      Thanks Eric, good to know.  I'll get into RAID then.  Never had a need before.

                                                                       

                                                                      jim

                                                                      • 32. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                                        Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                                        I still wish CP/M won the O/S battle!

                                                                        ...ditto, still wishing PDP-11/73 won the PC hardware one.  Up to 4MB of memory! 

                                                                        • 33. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                                          Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                                          I am not sure why we are debating here

                                                                          Maybe we just like to fight?    The important part is that the display traffic won't mess up the data one, on the same TB cable - since they use separate channels.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Compare PP Flash Drive vs Hard Disks Setup?
                                                                            jmpreston Level 1

                                                                            I setup PP CS6 on my MacBook Pro Retina 15" with the Intel quad core i7 CPU, 8 GB RAM / 256 GB SSD (solid state drive / flash drive) and rendered a 2.5 GB 11 minute 1080p video.  I decided not to close other programs such as muliple windows of Firefox, Chrome, and Safari along with Mac Mail and Evernote on multiple desktops.  Besides being too much trouble to set them up again I wanted to stress test PP during rendering.

                                                                             

                                                                            I also rendered the same video on my HP with the quad core Intel i7, 12 GB RAM, and 3 multi TB hard drives with the program, media, and files on separate disks and using PP CS5.5.  Only PP was running on this computer.

                                                                             

                                                                            The MBP rendered about 25% slower.  That was the only difference.  Program, media files, and scratch disk are all on one SSD and RAM was busy with other programs.

                                                                             

                                                                            The video used photos, videos, voice over audio files, titles, and background music.  No special effects other than transitions.

                                                                             

                                                                            The MBP does a fine job of live rendering a video of this size in the program monitor.

                                                                             

                                                                            I'm VERY pleased with the results and no longer concerned about needing 3 HD's for rendering.  I'll be able to make mountain biking videos and post them to YouTube from on location, like in Moab, UT :-)

                                                                             

                                                                            I bought the basic MBP Retina 15" when they were first released.  When Apple releases the next version I'll upgrade to 16 GB RAM and more storage and give my wife the old "clunker" :-)  Paired with a 27" Apple Thunderbolt Display this is an amazingly flexible work station to mobile setup.

                                                                             

                                                                            Jim