16 Replies Latest reply on Jan 3, 2013 11:34 PM by Harm Millaard

    AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?

    Brian_Kitevids

      Hello,

      First off I would like to thank the dedicated users who have shared there knowlage over the years.  Its taken quite awhile but ive sifted through alot of it over the last couple weeks with the intent on chosing parts for a new build.  I'm wondering what peoples thoughts are on the knew piledriver achitecture in the FX 8350 and 8320 and if it has a place at the center of a budget workstation.  

       

      A little bit more about my needs.

      At the moment I'm a student and under a vary tight budget.  Photo and video editing has long been a hoby and only recently turned more serious/semi-professional (aka Friends pay for odd jobs).  Im happy to say that this is ramping up.  I personal plans to take things farther and more work then my current tools can handle (aka asus gaming laptop).  This comming year I will be doing a series of web videos in conjuntion with a website I will be managing.  A more personal project will be starting a documentry on the local action sports scene.  So broken down more briefly.

       

      - I will by no means be editing 24/7.  Though quick response and smothe performance will be required.

      - I will be shooting mostly with Panasonic GH2/3  The Hacked footage is high bitrate AVCHD

       

      This isn't my first PC build.  Though the first workstation.  I will overclock.

       

      It seems everyone is a proponent of Intell.  I can see why they firmly sit on top of the performance heap.  The money you pay to get to the top of said pile grows exponetionly the closer you get there. The reason i'm even considering AMD is they fall into my price range with a chip that seems well tailored to pp.  well its benchmarked at exporting certain formats well. anyway.  So why not go with what is tried and ture? say a i7 2600, it could be good for a budget build. Well that chip is almost 100 bucks more then the amd's current price.  If you upgrade one part of your system you either forgo balance and end up wasting your investment, or you upgrade more and the price grows. That said I havn't tested it, I dont know if my FX build would be balanced.

       

      As much as I want a cheap system I dont want somthing that wont hanndle the work  load, especialy as its unlikely to change for at least a few years.

      so with that in regard I have not left the i7 3770k and 3820 out either.  With Haswell comming it would be nice to be able to upgrade, though realisticly that would be several years out bacause the build should need it untill then.

       

      The amd build orrigaly hit about 1k when i priced it out.  I thought the i7 would run close to 2k so i discounted it as an option. then I saw this.

      http://www.pacifier.com/~jtsmith/ADOBE.HTM

       

      i7 3770 for $1200. for sure!  However further inspection shows some of thoes components are well, cheap.  exactly what there supposed  to be .  So do I go with a AMD build for 1k.  Or maybe upgrade to multiple HDD 32gb ram,  SSD with the AMD chip and a 660ti for 12-1300.  Or would it be better to do the budget i7 system for about the same price.  Or, what I maybe leaning to more now, a i7 with a good board, 16gb ram(should be enough), and bare minimum HDD as AVCHD dosn't seem to as r/w dependent as it is CPU processing power.

       

      So for thoes that want the shrot version and avoid my long winded speach.  here are my questions.

       

      AMD FX 3850:  is it enough to edit AVCHD single cam smothly?  If an intel chip is prefered even in the same class, say an i5 or i7 2600 why?

       

      is AVCHD format video CPU depended enough to need, say  a i7 3770 and will it bottleneck on the drives without a fast or multi drive setup? am I better off with the AMD chip and multiple harddrives?

        • 1. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
          Harm Millaard Level 7

          You get what you pay for. The best AMD based system still ranks around # 520 in the PPBM5 benchmark, http://ppbm5.com/DB-PPBM5-2.php and is around 4 times slower than a fast Intel system, despite its hexa core architecture. The FX 8150 ranks around # 580 despite 8 cores and 16 GB memory and a good video card and being overclocked and is around 4.5 times slower than a good system. You can imagine where a FX 3850 will end up...

           

          Budget is your major limitation, so I suggest you postpone investing in a new build and save some more money for a new system, which should be an Intel based system to make any sense. You really need a beefy system to edit AVCHD comfortably and AMD just does not measure up.

           

          To get a feel of what is needed, look at the graphs at the bottom of this page: http://ppbm7.com/index.php/the-price-tag

          • 2. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
            Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            Brian_Kitevids wrote:

             

             

            If an intel chip is prefered even in the same class, say an i5 or i7 2600 why?

             

            The answer to this question is that Intel chips have a number of additional instruction that Adobe uses and that make significant improvements in the CPU performance that AMD does not have.  These are called the "Instruction Set Extensions SSE4.1/4.2, AVX", what has been missing really is the SSE4.2+.  Supposedly AMD has improved this support in the "Bulldozer" family but we have yet to see any comparable performance in our PPBM testing.

             

            I have an overclocked i7-2600K machine and it does quite well with my Sony AVCHD material and if you look at PPBM5 results and select only the i7-2600K CPU's there are 18 records in the top 100 submitted scores.

            • 3. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
              Brian_Kitevids Level 1

              Bill,

              Thanks for your reply and PPBM. The way I understand it "pile driver" supports thoes instructions.  Is it that it may not perform said instructoins as efficently givving ground to the intel chips?

               

              With your i7 2600 machine do you have a multi hard drive setup or raid arary.   Certainly a fully optomized systeem, especialy one with a i7, would have raid.  but because of the compressed nature of AVCHD would single drives suffice?

               

              Hacked Gh2 footage is often low GOP at bitrates over 150 mb/s  Though I may have answered my own question here.  Would a bitrate higher then a drives R/W rate be a problem requireing raid for smoothe editing?

               

              @Harm,

              Again thanks for PPBM.  I enjoyed your build log and helpful forum posts.  Putting things in lamens terms really sped up the learning curve.  I have spent some time on PPBM.  What gives me pause about the FX results is there are only 2.  It's certainly not enough data.  With other chips, like the 3770k or 2600, you can see results from 1000+ to top 100.  This surly shows setup and configuration are more important then just the chip.  Could this be true with the AMD chips?

               

              Would a less then optimal set up hold their score back to 500, just as with some of the i7's?

               

              The builds seem all over the place.  even the i7's over 500: some have 8gigs of ram, some have 16, some have raid, and some dont.  i dont know quite what to make of it.

               

              My thinking is that I would be better off with an Optimized AMD setup then a not optimized i7 priced similarly, with bottlenecks left and right.  However if AVCHD stresses drives less and the CPU more, I certainly see merrit to a i7 without a raid setup for better performance, then amd at a similar cost. With better upgrade options as well and the peace of mind knowing that if its done right a solid score is achiveable.  with amd its unkown it seems.  Thats a big one. 

               

              With PPBM not spicificly testing AVCHD performance.  What are key areas for good performance with that codec?

               

              If I can wait I certainly will and will likely build a system based on parts you have outlined in other posts, in the intermediate or warrior catagory.  Or see what Haswell has to offer next year: at least price drops for existing chips.

              • 4. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
                Brian_Kitevids Level 1

                After finding some better deals. online  I think i'll be doing a i7 system sometime soon.    It's between the 3770k and 2700k  I will be overclocking.

                 

                I would still be interested in the required HD setup for AVCHD footage.

                • 5. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
                  John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  >required HD setup for AVCHD footage

                   

                  If you go back to my adobe.htm link you mention in your original posting, I discuss ONE approach to using 4 hard drives... AVCHD is more CPU intensive, not data throughput intensive, so you really don't need RAID, just enough 7200rpm hard drives to "spread the load" while working

                   

                  Also... the i7 3770k would be MY choice, over the 2700k

                  • 6. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
                    Brian_Kitevids Level 1

                    John, thanks alot for clearing that up for me.  I went back and read through your site more thuroughly.  I wish the 3770 didn't run so hot, it would make the choice easy.  Thus im considering the 2700 because of its OC potential.  Thanks for posting the helpful info on your site.  theres not much out there on "budget" systems. 

                    • 7. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
                      John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      >wish the 3770 didn't run so hot

                       

                      HUH ???

                       

                      You need to go back to my link and read the 1st section again

                       

                      This is NOT overclocked, so it is the STOCK Intel cooler and not a taller/better cooler, but my wife's i7 3770 runs at 84F - that is lower than human body temp!!!

                       

                      The i7 3770k may be overclocked... just be sure to buy a good cooler to use instead of the stock Intel cooler

                       

                      In fact, you need to do some more reading about specifications... such as on the Newegg pages

                       

                      The i7 2700k uses 32nm construction for 95w of power draw

                      The i7 3770k uses 22nm construction for 77w of power draw

                       

                      I think you have things backwards about which CPU runs hotter

                      • 8. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
                        Harm Millaard Level 7

                        John,

                         

                        Remember what I said:

                         

                        Warning: If you are considering a much better affordable system, based on the Ivy Bridge processor, be warned that the cooling paste Intel uses on the Ivy Bridge is no good, especially when overclocking. At stock speed the i7-3770K runs 11 degrees hotter than with Liquid Ultra cooling paste and at 4.6GHz even 20 degrees centigrade. However if you change the cooling paste, you also void the warranty.

                        • 9. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
                          John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          I do not overclock, and the stock Intel cooler on my wife's i7 3770 CPU (with a side mount case fan blowing onto the motherboard) runs the CPU at 84F

                           

                          Due to the smaller fabrication size, and smaller power draw, my presumption is that the 3770k will "generally" run cooler than the 2700k

                           

                          Using a different CPU cooler, and different cooling paste, is a decision an overclocker must make

                          • 10. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
                            RjL190365 Level 4

                            John,

                             

                            What Harm meant by "cooling paste" inside Intel's Ivy Bridge CPUs refers to the paste Intel had applied (at the factory) inside the CPU's heat spreader (in other words, internally between the lid and the cores). That paste keeps the CPU cores significantly hotter than it should have given the 22nm process. In other words, at stock speed  the Ivy Bridge CPUs are barely any cooler than comparable-performance CPUs based on the previous-generation 32nm process. (And, of course, temperatures rise much more rapidly than 32nm CPUs when overclocked even modestly.)

                            • 11. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
                              John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              I completely understand about the stock Intel cooler and the pre-applied paste, since I just built an i7 3770 computer for my wife in November

                               

                              As I said, using a different CPU cooler, and paste, is a decision that someone who is going to overclock must make

                              • 12. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
                                RjL190365 Level 4

                                John,

                                 

                                What you stated about the stock Intel cooler and its stock paste has nothing to do with what Harm and I stated. What we meant was what Intel had put inside the CPU's integrated heat spreader. The stock cooler and stock surface-applied paste is an entirely separate matter.

                                • 13. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
                                  John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  OK... got that now... and something inside the CPU housing is certainly way outside MY expertise

                                   

                                  So, for overclocking, it sounds like the 2700k may be a better choice

                                   

                                  Grin... just one more reason I do not overclock

                                  • 14. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
                                    Brian_Kitevids Level 1

                                    Thanks for help on a couple key points guys as well as you imput in other threads that have been helpful.

                                     

                                    The final build will look somthing like this.

                                     

                                    i 37770k

                                    GA-Z77-UP5

                                    GTX 660ti

                                    32GB Gskill PC14900

                                    2x Seagate ST2000D100

                                    120GB SSD boot drive.  Dont know which yet.  Avoiding sandforce controlers

                                    seasonic 850w

                                     

                                    I can justify the  3770k because the new z77 chipsests are nice and with intel's tune warrenty i get alittle extra reasurance even when overclocking(especialy b/c of the higher temps then SB).  its only 20bucks.  I dont think DDR1866 is nessisary but its the same price as 1600 so wth.  The seagate's are on sale atm almost half the price of WD Caviar blacks.  For that price i feel like I could risk a DOA or 2. 

                                     

                                    Could use some Help on the SSD.  I could go 220gigs if i needed to.  M4's seem tried and true.  the plexor M5S looked good on papaer, same controler i think. 

                                    • 15. Re: AMD FX3850 For budget editing build?
                                      Brian_Kitevids Level 1

                                      I have a line on good cheap water cooler, so that may help.  With the tune warrenty I would have some reasurance.  It would still not be good to melt the mobo. .  Considering I have alot of time on my hands Delidding the CPU sounds like a fun project. I wont be doing it right off the bat though, thats for sure.

                                       

                                      Harm, did you end up going with the seagate st2000d's.  As I found a good price I wanted give them a try, however I could not find your final build on the website.  I'm only getting 2 to start but will be adding more and would like the option to add raid.  The St2000d's are half the price of WD caviar black atm.