22 Replies Latest reply on Jun 24, 2014 9:43 PM by PierreLouisBeranek

    Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)

    PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

      Having zero built-in font organization in CS is akin to using Premiere Pro without bins or Photoshop without layers.  In other words, it's a mess!  I've seen other posts suggesting ways to organize fonts, yet none that I felt present a complete solution.  With that said, here is my suggested solution to the current lack of font organization in CS:

       

      Font Folders

      Features:

      • Ability to create collapsible (i.e. 'twirlable') Font Folders at the top of each CS program's Font List.
      • Ability to add (drag-drop)/remove/reorder/rename fonts within these folders, and add the same fonts to several folders.
      • Four permanent 'Master' Font Folders at the top of each CS program's font list:
          • 'Program Name Fonts' (e.g. 'Photoshop Fonts')
          • 'CS Fonts'
          • 'Program Name Projects' (e.g. 'Premiere Pro Projects')
          • 'Font List'
      • 'Program Name Fonts' would be Font Folders that only appear in the respective program in which they were created.  Thus, a 'Wedding Videos' Font Folder created in Premiere Pro would only appear in that program.
      • 'CS Fonts' would be Font Folders that automatically appear in every other CS program.  Thus, a 'Favorites' Font Folder created in Photoshop would automatically appear in Illustrator, AE, PP and other relevant CS programs.  Any eventual changes made to this folder, in any CS program, would automatically appear in every other CS program.
      • 'Program Name Projects' would be automatically created Font Folders to keep track of the fonts used in previous projects.  Thus, should a video editor want to reuse the same 10 fonts that were used in a project from a year ago, referencing those fonts would be as simple as opening the respective Font Folder.  For greater organization, Project folders should automatically be categorized into root folders by year, and allow the same renaming/deleting/reordering as the other two types of Font Folders.
      • 'Font List': putting all installed fonts into their own collapsible folder would allow users to twirl this folder closed when they only want to focus on fonts within other Font Folder categories.
      • Right-clicking on any Master Font Folder or Font (Sub-)Folder could give users contextual menu options to export/import the Font Folder structure and/or the fonts within them. This would make sharing fonts and/or Font Folders between users and between computer systems quick and easy.
      • These contextual menus should also give users the option to 'Sort Alphabetically'.
      • Right-clicking on the 'Font List' folder could give users different display options:
          • Display all installed fonts
          • Display uncategorized fonts (only shows fonts that have not been manually added to a Font Folder by user)
          • Diplay unused fonts (only shows fonts that have not been used, i.e. do not appear in the 'Program Name Projects' Font Folders.
      • By default, Adobe could populate the 'CS Fonts' folder with standard categories, such as 'Serif', 'Sans Serif', 'Fixed width', etc, to organize its default CS fonts.
      • Every font folder should contain a preview of each font, just like fonts in Photoshop's Font List do.  For maximum usefulness, the default characters 'Sample' should automatically be replaced by the first 1-30 user-selected characters within the program's interface.  Thus, should a Premiere Pro user want to compare how the title 'Jenny+Edward' looks in all 20 fonts in his/her 'Wedding Videos' Font Folder, doing so would be as simple and instantaneous as selecting the text in the Titler, and twirling open the 'Wedding Videos' Font Folder!
      • A horizontal resize bar at the top of each CS program's Font List (just like the bar at the bottom of Premiere Pro's Project Window) would allow users to resize font names and font previews within all 4 Font Folders.  This would ensure a perfect viewing size for all users, on all resolution monitors.


      Why should editors have to scroll through a list of 100, 300, or 500+ installed fonts that are completely inappropriate for a certain title, every time they want to locate and compare the 5-10 fonts that are well suited? Allowing this kind of intuitive, built-in font organization, with a simple drag & drop interface, would be a God-send and set Adobe apart as the first software company to address font management in this way!

       

      Comments?  Ideas?  Missing features?  Please share!

       

      ps. My 'Project Name Fonts' idea may be harder to program by virtue of requiring automation.  This feature could therefore be released in a subsequent version, should its omission allow for the sooner release of the other features I suggest.  Thank you.

        • 1. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
          Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          I totally agree, the fonts are a mess in Premiere.

          The fonts I use the most are set up in a Title Style.

          So please file a feature request:

          http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

          • 2. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
            PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

            Hi Ann,

             

            Thanks for your reply.  I would have to add that fonts aren't just a mess in Premiere, but in every CS program, and pretty much every other program on the market for that matter (FCP, Corel, Microsoft Word, etc, etc.)  Therein lies an incredible opportunity for Adobe to not just fix this mess in CS, but also come out as a true innovator and market-leader by being the first company to address Font Management in a simple, logical, fully-integrated, cross-program/platform way!

             

            BTW, I've already sent my Feature Request, 4 times: for PP, Photoshop, Illustrator and AE!  Hopefully you and others can too so that Adobe moves Font management higher on their priority list.  Big hopes that we'll finally see this next year in CS7!

            • 3. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
              Jim_Simon Level 8

              Fonts typically go into the Windows/Fonts folder.  This makes them available to all installed programs.  For myself, I don't feel the need for any more system level organization that that, and believe any other method would actually create an unholy mess, a nightmare of organization (at the system level, at least).

               

              Now, if your suggesting a method of organizing fonts into user folders within the program (like clips into bins), and which doesn't have any effect at all on actual file or folder location of installed fonts on the hard drive; that I would not object to.

               

              Another possible solution would be a new Font Manager program, sort of like Bridge for fonts.  This would allow you to browse all installed fonts, sort and organize them for viewing as desired, buy new ones if needed, install and remove fonts, etc.  Combine this with a search bar at the top of every Font list in programs like PP, AE, PS, etc., and we then have full screen preview of the fonts, along with an easy method to call up just the right font when we make our decision.

              • 4. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                the_wine_snob Level 9

                I just use a font manager (Extensis Suitcase in my case), so that I can group my fonts by style, Project, Client, or however else I want them. I seldom have more than about 350 fonts installed to my OS, at a time, and when I need a particular Font Set, I can just load that, on the fly, so that all of my Adobe programs can access them.

                 

                Now, and as most programs rely mainly on the OS's font handling capabilities, and listings, it might be worthwhile contacting MS, or Apple, and asking that they do Bins, or similar.

                 

                In my case, I have, besides my installed fonts (in Windows), a separate folder "Fonts," under which I have my PS Fonts, TT Fonts, OTF Fonts, and a few others. Suitcase has all of those folders linked, and then to my Font Sets. That has worked for me, even with 19,000 + fonts on the system (just not installed).

                 

                Good luck,

                 

                Hunt

                • 5. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                  Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                  Amazing. 19,000+ fonts.

                   

                  My guess is that in all the years I have been using computers (and I go back to well before the PC), not counting projects for my wife, I have probably needed about 100 fonts. Maybe. Probably less. Serif, San Serif, bold, italic, the occasional Comic Sans, proportional, non proportional. Oh, and the Walt Disney font, of course.

                   

                  I have always considered myself artistically challenged, but still. How in the world would one use so many fonts? I have many more than I need installed on my PC, certainly. It happens when you install Adobe products. But I never use many of them.

                   

                  I can certainly see why you would need a 3d party application to keep track of them. And why you would want Adobe to take the lead. My goodness. 19,000+ fonts? Really???

                  • 6. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                    PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                    Jim:

                    I'm not sure how the confusion occured, but to clarify: the solution I'm suggesting would only organize fonts within CS programs, NOT in the Windows/Fonts folder (which I agree should not happen!).  Just like organizing media into Bins in Premiere does not in any way affect the location of the orginal media files, placing fonts into Font Folders wouldn't (and shouldn't!) affect the original font files.

                     

                    As for relagating this functionality to a new Font Manager program, or ignoring this Feature Request because 3rd party programs already exist (as Bill Hunt mentions and I am already aware), I wholeheartedly disagree for the following reasons:

                    1. Why rely on a seperate program when each CS program can easily do the job itself?
                    2. 3rd party programs don't and can't offer the automated 'Premiere Pro Projects' font folders I suggest.
                    3. 3rd party programs or a separate Adobe program couldn't offer the instant, intelligent previews of selected text that I suggest. (users would have to copy/paste text they want to preview in different fonts, adding unecessary steps to the process).
                    4. Relying on a 3rd party program adds yet another program to purchase.
                    5. Font Lists are already an inconsistent mess between CS apps (some offer previews, others don't, some have a scroll bar, others don't, etc).  Since this needs to be fixed, why shouldn't Adobe add useful additional capabilities to Font Lists while they're at it?
                    6. An integrated, tight interface is always easier/faster to use than having to resort to another program (given that both can perform the tasks equaly well, which in this case they certainly could).

                     

                    Steven:

                    Just because Font Folders might not be the best option for organizing 19,000+ fonts (which I agree they wouldn't), suggesting that Adobe shouldn't take the lead in this area doesn't make any sense.  After all, how many people have that many fonts on their system?  Just because it wouldn't be the best tool for an astronomically large number of fonts doesn't mean it wouldn't be a God-send for the other 99% of users that have a manageable number of fonts (I myself have 500).

                     

                    Considering a built-in solution, as I suggest and truly believe would be the easiest/friendliest method, are there any features that are missing or should be changed?

                     

                    Let's keep the conversation productive by focusing on finding a solution for built-in font management that would best serve the most users possible!

                    • 7. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                      shooternz Level 6

                      Like Bill, I use a Font Manager.

                       

                      I keep a minimal amount of fonts loaded in the system and thats make anything to do with fonts in my video and graphics applications , easy. ie a short list to peruse

                       

                      Luckily ..TVCs generally use only a few "classic fonts" generally or a client specific font.

                       

                      Searching in the Font Manager thru' my 2 font resources ( maybe a 1000 fonts) on the NAS or internally is easy and fast on the occasion its needed. Loading takes seconds and its immediately available to the graphics application.

                       

                      FWIW - I use another little font managing application '2manyfonts' to rid myself of the multitude of extremely annoying "asian fonts" that Adobe insists I need with every time there is an upgrade or update to the software.   A thousand dragon curses on these fonts!

                      • 9. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                        Jim_Simon Level 8

                        1. One possibility is that writing one new program to do the job might well be easier than adding the feature to every existing program.  Another possibility is that a separate program might be more functional, have more options than an integrated feature, such as the aforementioned buying of new fonts, searching the Internet for and downloading of free fonts, or installing and removing fonts.  There might also be some sort of integration with Adobe Illustrator, a program often used to actually create fonts.  Another is that a separate program would normally provide a lot more screen real estate for previewing fonts, including the ability to preview the same text in multiple fonts simultaneously.

                         

                        2. Adobe's own Font Manager would not be "third-party".

                         

                        3. Not necessarily.  If the Font Manager program were automatically loaded when opening any Adobe program that allowed user font selection (with a preference to turn off such autoloading), you could add a right click option to selected text called Preview Fonts.  As it's already loaded, calling the Font Manager to the fore would be very quick and allow a larger preview along with multiple font previews for the same text.  Any font selection made, or even changes to the text, while in the Font Manager would automatically show up in the host application, a Dynamic Link type of thing.

                         

                        4. Same as 2.  Adobe's app would come with the Creative Cloud, or as does Bridge and AME, bundled with individual programs if purchased separately.

                         

                        5. Not sure how this is an argument against a separate app.  Previewing in a new program would easily solve the current disparity between programs.

                         

                        6. Not sure I agree with either point here.  Some call for integrating AE into PP, but I think that would be a disaster.  Each application has it's own specialty and mode of operation, and they're better kept separate.  And as mentioned in point 1, I do believe a separate program could be made more functional, offer more features, than would be practical for an integrated feature. Like AME can do more with exporting than PP can alone, a separate Font Manager could do more than each individual program.

                         

                        Adobe could even go so far as to create Adobe Titler, a font manager as previously discussed as well as a fully featured titling program, with full Dynamic Link between PP, AE, PS, Encore and more.

                        • 10. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                          Jim_Simon Level 8

                          the multitude of extremely annoying "asian fonts" that Adobe insists I need with every time there is an upgrade or update to the software.

                           

                          Is that where those damn things come from?

                          • 11. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                            PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                            Hi Jim,

                             

                            Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

                            If Font management could be a separate yet well integrated program, directly accessible from within any CS program (just as PP can easily access AME from the appropriate interface), and which could be set to automatically launch whenever text is created in a CS app, then I can definitely see the validity to this approach.

                             

                            As for the task of having to program my Feature Request for each individual CS program, I believe there would be a lot of reusing of the same code. i.e. program once, re-use similar code over and over between programs.  If a software programmer could chime in to clarify if this would actually be possible or not, that would be great.  Could font folders even be the exact same software 'module' referenced by all CS programs?  This would mean the feature would only have to be programmed once.

                             

                            A separate program could certainly offer more functionality than my Feature Request implies, that's for sure.  However, I think most CS users would be happy with simple drag&drop Font Folders and consistent Font Lists (i.e. lists that auto-maximize to the height of a screen, offer intelligent font previews, have a scroll-bar, are resizable, etc.)  Here's my thread regarding Current Font List inconsistencies in CS and possible solutions: http://forums.adobe.com/message/4955178#4955178.

                            Adobe needs to do a serious overhaul of its font lists anyway, so given this fact, adding Font Folders seems like a logical addition.

                             

                            In the end, I prefer whichever tool Adobe can give us first: consistently intelligent font lists + built-in font folders, or consistently intelligent font lists + separate yet very well integrated font organization program.  The bottom line is that Adobe should/could/needs to offer better CS font management in Premiere Pro, Photoshop, Illustrator, AE and others than it currently is!  And the current existence of third party font management apps simply isn't an excuse for zero built-in font management IMHO.

                             

                            Any other ideas?

                            • 12. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                              shooternz Level 6

                              Is that where those damn things come from?

                               

                              Yes.

                               

                              Google "2manyfonts" and use the current  .bat file to lose them.

                               

                              Works perfectly ... but its tiresome having to do it every update.

                               

                              Its one of the many  other little things that Adobe does just to niggle me. 

                               

                              eg. Font Droppings as well as Opacity Keyframe Droppings...and then there is Flash Updates

                              • 13. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                                Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                                PierreLouisBeranek,

                                 

                                Perhaps English is not your native tongue. You obviously did not understand what I said. Perhaps if you read it again?

                                 

                                I said:

                                 

                                I can certainly see why you would need a 3d party application to keep track of them. And why you would want Adobe to take the lead.

                                 

                                That means that I understand why you want Adobe to take the lead. To do the work. To provide you with what you want. I thought that was pretty clear.

                                 

                                I never suggest anything that doesn't make sense and I might resent the accusation if I thought that English was your native tongue. You certainly use it well, but perhaps my attempt at humor confused you?

                                • 14. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                                  PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                                  Hi Steven,

                                   

                                  Yes, I misread your post, and yes, English is my native tongue... along with French (also fluent in Portugues and Spanish).  Mistakes happen though.  No need to resent my post since it wasn't an accusation, just an opinion based on a misinterpretation.

                                   

                                  Moving along...

                                  I'm taking a look at three Font Management programs: TypeDNA 2.2.1, Suitcase Fusion4 and Font Explorer Pro X Pro 2.2.3.  Seeing how these 3rd party apps seemlessly integrate with Photoshop and Illustrator (saddly no PP & AE integration), I can now see how a separate Adobe Font Management program could offer many more features than those in the request I suggested.  Once again, I prefer whichever tool Adobe can provide with us first.  Perhaps basic Font Folders for now, with just local or CS wide folders, and a more complete solution down the road to complement these?

                                   

                                  Does anyone know of any third party Font Management program that currently offers Premiere Pro integration?  Thanks!

                                  • 15. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                    There are several functions in the various CS programs, that directly rely on the OS, and its method of handling things. This might be via the fonts, installed into the OS, file Saving dialogs, file Opening dialogs, and some others.

                                     

                                    Adobe has chosen, that than write their own functions, to rely on those in the OS already.

                                     

                                    Now, I can see a benift of arranging fonts, within the CS programs. I could use that in PS, Illustrator and InDesign, mostly, and admit that it would benefit me to maybe NOT display all of the ~ 350 loaded at any one time, in Titler, since I probably use only about 10 with any regularity. However, that would require some re-coding, since the font list display comes from the OS.

                                     

                                    To get around sorting through ~ 350 fonts in Titler, I have just created Styles, for my common fonts, and the normal treatment, that I apply to them - not perfect, and not as clean as your suggestion, but it works fine for me, with Adobe's reliance on some OS functions.

                                     

                                    I would offer support for a Feature Request, but not sure how far that would go, and how many resources would be required to cut the "umbilical cord" with the OS. I worry that those resources could be better spent, fixing some things (spanned Clips comes to mind) in PrPro.

                                     

                                    Just my observation,

                                     

                                    Hunt

                                    • 16. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                                      Steven,

                                       

                                      Way, way back when, as I started doing almost as much graphic design, as I was advertising photography, Adobe had a neat collection of fonts, and offered them on CD, in preview. One could use that collection, with the included viewer, to find the font (from the Adobe collection), and then buy the license for that. At a point, they offered a killer deal on the whole collection (about 5,000 Adobe PS fonts, IIRC). I bought the whole deal, so that I did not have to search through the collection, then buy each necessary font, as needed. It came to about $0.25/font, so I sprung for it. Not all THAT long later, Adobe dropped that collection (will have to find one of those old CD's, to recall the name of that), and sort of cooled it, regarding fonts, for a bit.

                                       

                                      I have also bought many display fonts, from foundries like Chank, as those were needed, along with many LinoType font families.

                                       

                                      In that pile of fonts, I also have several free font collections, however many of those found their way to the trashcan, as they were not well-written, and did not work well in many Adobe programs.

                                       

                                      Last, I have been creating some fonts, that contribute to the bloat.

                                       

                                      Not counted in that number are about 1,000 Corel fonts from the earlier CorelDraw program. Those did not work that well with Adobe programs, and most post-production houses refused to buy them, so I found little use for them. Still have all those CD's, but have not used any in decades. I still use the clip art from some of those collections, but not so much anymore.

                                       

                                      Now that I do mostly video, my font usage has slowed to a crawl. I still head over to Chank, from time to time, seeking a specific "look" for a display font in a Title (usually a Main Title), but like I once did. Also, and for years, every month Chank would offer some "free fonts," and out of habit, I would just click the link in their e-mails, and get those. They WERE well-written, and I cannot recall ever having one not work in an Adobe program. Over the last few years, I have probably used fewer than the fonts currently installed, though still have my Font Sets for Projects and clients (though I have retired).

                                       

                                      Guess that collecting fonts just became a hobby?

                                       

                                      Hunt

                                      • 17. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                                        Even Adobe's ATM has sort of gone the way of the dodo. Going back to when they were earlier in the "font business," they bought a wonderful font manager, FontMinder, but killed it, in favor of the inferior (IMHO) ATM.

                                         

                                        Now, that code is likely still sitting in a vault at Adobe, and if it could be ported for current OS's, would be ideal, and especially if Adobe programs could directly access that, rather than the OS's font function.

                                         

                                        Hunt

                                        • 18. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                                          shooternz Level 6

                                          Take a look at High Logic Main Type while you are looking at Font Management.

                                           

                                          http://www.high-logic.com/font-manager/maintype.html

                                           

                                          I dont know if its the best ...but I like it.

                                           

                                          It does not integrate with Premiere as such ...but it works nicely alongside it.

                                           

                                          eg ifg I need to load or unload a font...I open it alongside (any Adobe graphics app) and do so. 

                                           

                                          Its value is that one can group Fonts as one would wish, load / unload whatever...whenever and view fonts clearly and simply in the window.

                                          • 20. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                                            PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                                            Hi Ann,

                                             

                                            I just tested out the DiskFonts extension you found.  Thanks for the tip.

                                             

                                            Here's what I tested and found so far (Windows only):

                                            1. DiskFonts (www.anastasiy.com/diskfonts): only 3rd-party program we've found that currently supports Premiere, but not CS6.  In CS6 it crashes, but from what I can gauge, it's of limited use.  Too many basic things missing, such as ability to create various font sets/folders, and resize bar for previews.  I like how it's a dockable window though.
                                            2. Font Agent Pro 4.1 (www.insidersoftware.com): Terrible interface, heavy program, wants to copy fonts from default Windows folder to custom location?? Bad, bad, bad.
                                            3. MainType 5.1 (www.high-logic.com/font-manager): Great interface, very customizable, ability to create font folders (Root Groups & Subgroups) with custom icons.  Second best option I've found after TypeDNA.
                                            4. TypeDNA 2.2.1 (www.typedna.com): Best 3rd party app I've found so far!  Straightforward  with customizable information columns and most font viewing options (list view, card view, family view).  Intelligent tools such as 'Similar' (right-click on any font and click 'Similar' to automatically get a list of all similar looking fonts), and font search by attributes (weight, width, italic and optical). Fantastic features!  Missing features: Premiere Pro integration, resize bar for previews (resizing currently requires a visit to the Preferences), colour pickers for font/background colors, subgroup font folders (currently only allows root level groups), CTRL-A font selection (keyboard shortcut doesn't work), 'Smart Sets' (available in Suitcase Fusion 4 and Font Explorer X Pro).
                                            5. Suitcase Fusion 4 (www.extensis.com/suitcase-fusion-4): Great interface for font previews (selectable font/background colors, resize bar, etc.), but drag/dropping fonts to font folders (sets) always gives me an 'unexpected error' message.  Even if it did work, the interface for managing custom sets is terrible: custom sets cannot be added to the 'System Fonts' root folder (where all fonts are listed), they can only be added to custom 'Library' root folders.  However these root folders cannot be simultaneously 'twirled down', which makes drag-dropping fonts from one's library directly to a custom set impossible.  This UI is insane.
                                            6. Font Explorer X Pro 2.3.3 (www.fontexplorerx.com): Sloooow startup.  Can create custom Sets and Smart Sets, nested within master Folders, and even export Sets! (all contained fonts sent to zipped file) However, the complete lack of font list preview options (tiny preview characters can't even be resized!) makes this otherwise nice program unusable for font management (preview options only available in window that displays 1 font at a time).

                                             

                                            If TypeDNA can add the missing features I mention above, and add extensions for Premiere Pro and After Effects, then it would, IMO, remove the need for Adobe to add font folders as suggested.  However, ideally, Adobe can take cues from these programs (MainType interface + TypeDNA's smart tools + Font Explorer X Pro Set exports) and give us its own built-in solution.

                                             

                                            Any programs missing in this list that I should test?

                                            • 21. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                                              Snoopdeep

                                              Has anybody figured out a decent alternative to this? Still looking for good font management

                                              • 22. Re: Font Folders (i.e. Comprehensive CS-wide Font organization!)
                                                PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                                                Hi Snoopdeep.  Our best hope is to keep bugging Adobe until they finally fix the dismal mess that is their font organization (or rather total lack of it).  Please send your requests here http://www.adobe.com/go/wish.

                                                 

                                                Thanks