21 Replies Latest reply on Oct 4, 2013 5:08 PM by artistdomain

    There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?

    Dan Wolfe

      I will post this in the Prelude forum as well...

       

      for years I have used the following workflow in FCP without issue.

       

      myself (american) and a german videographer would go on a two week trip and use a mixture of 6 cameras, P2/AVCHD/DSLR.

       

      every night I would archive each camera card to 3 separate drives using ShotPut Pro.  each camera card is archived into a folder (ie: 2013-01-10_HPX170) which then became the reel name in FCP L&T.  I always make sure to maintain the original file structure from each camera.

       

      at the end of our trip, the german and myself would each go home with a copy of all footage shot, and we would each log and do rough edits of our own footage (3 each of the 6 cameras).  after that we could simply email each other FCP project files, and I was easily able to add his project to mine and then quickly bring the german's offline edits online by pointing L&T at the corresponding reels.  too easy.

       

      for the past few months I've been trying out the prelude to premiere workflow and I must say it certainly isn't that easy.  I thought I could stop using ShotPut Pro in favor of the Prelude ingest feature, since it allows you to archive the camera cards to multiple places, but there doesn't seem to be any type of reel info retained.  furthermore, if two seperate videographers have identical bodies of footage, and each log the footage on their own, the newly created sidecar xmp's certainly don't match between the two remote people, and everything starts getting messy.

       

      I recently had another editor send me his premiere project.  he had logged everything in prelude, sent a rough cut to premiere, finished in premiere and then sent me the final project.  I tried to open the premiere project and point it at the requested footage (which I have an identical copy of) and nothing linked up, it was a mess.  "where is the file 00025.MTS?".  um... which camera premiere?  we were using 4 AVCHD cameras and all four of them name the files that way.  why wouldn't it ask me where the enclosing folder (reel) is?  wouldn't that make more sense?.

       

      so am I doing something wrong?  am I overlooking something?  or is this just a prime example of the bad media managent that I've been hearing about with adobe?  certainly this isn't too much to ask of software.

       

      I realize that project manager can be used to forward a project on to another editor, but the resulting file package is usually rather large and just emailing project files is really much easier.

       

      should I just explain these needs in some type of feature request or do I need to employ a different workflow?

       

      there has to be a better way to manage all of these assets, they only keep growing...

        • 1. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
          John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          The list in message #3 here http://forums.adobe.com/message/2276578 includes a link to an Adobe TV Prelude tutorial which may help

          • 2. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
            Dan Wolfe Level 1

            thanks for the link(s) but they don't really help at all with my specific problem.  I understand how prelude works, it's more just a relinking to media issue I'm experiencing.  I don't feel like at this point prelude and/or premiere create a distinct enough bond to source footage if editors wish to share projects without having to send & receive the supporting media files.

            • 3. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
              Jim_Simon Level 8
              so am I doing something wrong?

               

              No.  Sony and Panasonic did when they invented this wholly unnecessary and fully asinine 'folder structure' instead of using the MXF container as it was intended, to hold everything in one file.

               

              I recommend strongly worded letters before the newest AVC-Ultra spec is released.  Let them know that MXF OP1a files with only one top level folder is the right way to do this.

               

              For the time being, you can bypass the "Where is..." dialog when opening.  Once into the project, you can go into a bin and link all files at once.  So long as the bin names correspond to the top level folder names on the hard drive (for example, both bin and folder named "Day 1 Card 1"), it'll be easy to figure which files are where.

              • 4. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                strypesinpost Level 2

                "where is the file 00025.MTS"

                 

                To add to this moronic naming convention for Avchd... I have for months been contemplating taking the mts files out from the Avchd folder package and renaming them just so I can organize them. This goes against conventional post practices, but there seems to be little trade offs aside from not having the software join up spanned clips (which I gather is problematic in PPro and non existent in Avid), and neither PPro nor Avid seems to really care about whether the mts files have an appropriate folder structure.

                • 5. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                  Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                  See this discussion within the thread with the issue identical to yours to better understand how PrPro searches for missing media.

                  • 6. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                    Dan Wolfe Level 1

                    I don't think sony or panasonic did anything wrong, and none of the above discussions really help.  the main problem is that adobe software needs to retain info about a clips enclosing camera root folder which it currently does not.  final cut has done this for years and I've never had a problem with numerical MTS files as long as final cut knew the reel (card).  I filled out a feature request months ago asking that the "create subfolder" option during ingest into prelude would also make the subfolder the reel name for each clip.  this is the most sensible way to track all of the indivdual files.  hopefully we will see this added to a future update to prelude/premiere because right now it really is a nightmare.

                    • 7. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                      Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                      If you were addressing me, I never said anything about SONY or Panasonic. I pointed you to the discussion that explains, which of '00025.MTS' exactly PrPro asks. It's up to you whether to consider it to be of some help.

                      • 8. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                        Dan Wolfe Level 1

                        sorry, not addressing you specifically, thanks for trying to help.

                        • 9. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                          Allynn Wilkinson Level 2

                          Dan Wolfe wrote:

                           

                          the main problem is that adobe software needs to retain info about a clips enclosing camera root folder which it currently does not.  final cut has done this for years and I've never had a problem with numerical MTS files as long as final cut knew the reel (card). 

                          I totally agree, Dan.  One thing I really liked about FCP was that it **told** you where it thought the off-line media was supposed to be.  This was an enormous help not only with things like MTS files that are all named 00000.MTS but also in **teaching** new editors about organization. 

                           

                          Me: "See, little Johnny?  FCP can't find your music file because you put it on your desktop and we're on a different machine now.  How many times have I told you not to put files on your desktop?"  Little Johnny: "I'm sorry.  It won't happen again"  And of course it did!

                          • 10. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                            Fuzzy Barsik Level 4
                            the main problem is that adobe software needs to retain info about a clips enclosing camera root folder which it currently does not

                            That is not true in general. PrPro does retain the info about full path to every asset imported into a project. Otherwise it would be impossible to locate any of them even though they were not moved (renamed etc.).

                             

                            Yes, it's silly that PrPro doesn't ask about full path while searching for missing media, especially on conditions that it doesn't require a lot of developers' efforts. File a feature request to help it happen as soon as possible.

                             

                            However, that doesn't eliminate the fact that the OP issue per se can be resolved with understanding searching order.

                            • 11. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                              Allynn Wilkinson Level 2

                              Fuzzy Barsik wrote:

                               

                              Yes, it's silly that PrPro doesn't ask about full path while searching for missing media, especially on conditions that it doesn't require a lot of developers' efforts. File a feature request to help it happen as soon as possible.

                               

                              Yes, that's exactly what annoys me.  Of course Premiere knows the path.  Why is it keeping that info from me (especially since it tells me more than I need to know about everything else!)

                               

                              I suppose you can resolve the issue by knowing (and trusting) searching order but that's still a pain in the @$$ if you have a lot of clips.  I tend to do it all manually so *I* know what I'm linking (never did trust those dang machines) but every time I do it in Premiere I miss FCP.  I never realized how often I relied on that feature until I didn't have it anymore

                              • 12. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                                Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                                If you moved (renamed etc.) a lot of clips in different locations, you have to locate them manually irrespective of whether you know their previous path or not.

                                 

                                All the rest has nothing to do with resolving the issue, while I'm not in the mood just 'to talk about the issue'. Sorry...

                                • 13. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                                  strypesinpost Level 2

                                  FCP links back to tapeless media with clip IDs and reel name. This allowed you to re-link/batch capture (via L&T) from a camera magazine even if you renamed your clip in FCP.

                                   

                                  Premiere doesn't do this. However, the way Premiere relinks to clips is undocumented. At least I haven't found good documentation on it. It seemingly uses clip name, however, there was once I re-named a bunch of QTs and all the files in two different folders re-linked automatically after I linked to the first clip.

                                   

                                  Fuzzy, that post is interesting. However, what happens if you don't keep your media in bins sorted via tape names?

                                  • 14. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                                    Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                                    That means you have to face all sorts of a mess while cutting your timeline: which '00025.MTS' exactly to pick to drop in the timeline? Especially in multicam workflow?

                                    • 15. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                                      strypesinpost Level 2

                                      Not really. You face all sorts of issues re-linking, not cutting. Usually when cutting drama, we rely on bins sorted out by scenes, not sorted by cards or shoot day. Same for multicam reality. Lots of productions shoot out of sequence all the time. Having to preserve bin structure is a major PITA when you have a post job in the pipe for months.

                                      • 16. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                                        Allynn Wilkinson Level 2

                                        strypesinpost wrote:

                                         

                                        Not really. You face all sorts of issues re-linking, not cutting. Usually when cutting drama, we rely on bins sorted out by scenes, not sorted by cards or shoot day. Same for multicam reality. Lots of productions shoot out of sequence all the time. Having to preserve bin structure is a major PITA when you have a post job in the pipe for months.

                                        Exactly!  I store my working material and my archive cards (separately) with the original folder structure BUT when I'm working on a project I want to organize my clips in bins based on their content.  I want to re-name and still know where the original media is.  Premiere is fine at this part UNLESS you have to re-link material for some reason.  Then it gets difficult.

                                         

                                        The first time I came up against this was in a four camera multicam.  I ended up figuring out which card was whice based on the file size of each card folder and the length of each camera angle!  Too.Much.Math!

                                        • 17. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                                          Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                                          1. Do you import your assets into a project based on scenes or cards?

                                          2. For multicam reality how do you build your timeline without knowing which '00025.MTS' exactly belongs to a particular camera angle taken in particular time?

                                          3. Being aware of some inconvenience, why fighting windmills? If you understand how things work, you can organise your project accordingly. Why e.g. not to combine clips for a particular scene in a particular sequence instead of moving footages from their original project folders? If you can't live without, why not to choose another tool?

                                           

                                          As I said, I don't see the use of discussing that an issue exists. File feature request (I did submit one today): the more feature requests Adobe gets, the higher the probability it will be implemented.

                                          • 18. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                                            strypesinpost Level 2

                                            Fuzzy Barsik wrote:

                                             

                                            1. Do you import your assets into a project based on scenes or cards?

                                            2. For multicam reality how do you build your timeline without knowing which '00025.MTS' exactly belongs to a particular camera angle taken in particular time?

                                            3. Being aware of some inconvenience, why fighting windmills? If you understand how things work, you can organise your project accordingly. Why e.g. not to combine clips for a particular scene in a particular sequence instead of moving footages from their original project folders? If you can't live without, why not to choose another tool?

                                             

                                             

                                            1. They are imported by cards and on large enough shows, the assistants do the prep. Sometimes the workflow allows us to keep the footage in their respective bins, but at other times, this is not a feasible workflow.

                                             

                                            2. Usually we rename the clips to a naming system less arbitrary and one that makes logical sense for video editing and production. Hence also my disdain for Panasonic's random file naming. Their op-atom implementation makes it much worse.

                                             

                                            3. My point is that I didn't know exactly how Premiere Pro re-links to a clip, as there was once I re-named every single clip in 2 separate folders and it re-linked to all of them perfectly without so much as dialog box to resolve the conflict. The automatic re-linking on that project was very handy, and initially I thought PPro used timecode/reel name to relink when there is a discrepancy with file names, but your post seems to suggest that perhaps PPro relies on folders and pathnames, which seems very troubling. But again, there is no proper documentation from Adobe on this.

                                             

                                            Perhaps a suggestion to the OP is to keep the media in the original bins and keep the Finder level folder hierachy on the files similar on both machines. Perhaps that may help the re-linking.

                                            • 19. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                                              Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                                              PrPro remembers full path, including drive letter, of every asset imported into a project and is smart enough to locate all the rest missing files once the first one was picked up from a new location (unless they were randomly moved into different ones). Hence, there are no difficulties in exchanging projects if disk folder structure for media files utilised is identical.

                                               

                                              All your clips renamings within a project are stored as metadata (separate XML fields), and even though you renamed all of them, PrPro still searches for original file names.

                                               

                                              You are not prohibited from creating subclips out of original footages. That allows to enjoy the best of both worlds: keeping original card based folder structure intact, while freely name sublips as you want and store them in additional folder structure with e.g. scene flavour.

                                               

                                              UPD: Was dabbling with mixed AVCHD, Panasonic P2 and conventional media files. Searching algorithm is more complex compared to what is valid for AVCHD only: irrespective of how bins names for 'cards' with according types of media files were sorted alphabetically, first and foremost PrPro was looking for AVCHD files, then - conventional media files, and, eventually, P2 MXF files. I didn't succeed in searching order identification within P2 MXF 'cards': PrPro was asking for MXF file, which related to alphabetically 'higher' internal shot name, but how and why it was selecting CARD 01, CARD 02 or CARD 03 remained a mistery...

                                              • 20. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                                                strypesinpost Level 2

                                                Hey Fuzzy,

                                                 

                                                Your idea of creating subclips seems excellent! That way, it makes it easy to do a manual/semi-assisted re-link of media, while allowing for re-naming and categorization of the sub-clips in PPro.

                                                • 21. Re: There has to be a better way... or what am I doing wrong?
                                                  artistdomain Level 1

                                                  Hello,

                                                   

                                                  I currently have 2 Panasonic HMC150s that I wish to differentiate between in post by setting unique metadata in each one. I have successfully written the metadata I want into the cameras and can verify that with the metadata properties screen of the camera menu. The data for each file is being written to the SD card. I can see it in Panasonic's AVCAM viewer and in Adobe's XMP files. Below is the XMP for that file. See dc:shotName="CamA0001" that's my User File Name. "shotName" switch was not on by default in Adobe's metadata properties control so I added it. That did nothing to make it appear to Premiere.emiere.

                                                   

                                                  For some reason it looks like Premiere 6.0.3 cannot read the data. Or I'm doing something wrong. I see other posts on this subject and I know it's in the queue as a feature request to make the User Clip name part of the new file name. What is the status of that?

                                                   

                                                  Any insights much appreciated!

                                                   

                                                  Thanks

                                                   


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