31 Replies Latest reply on Jan 18, 2013 12:14 PM by hill4t

    How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound

    hill4t Level 1

      Hello i have cs 5.5 i would like to take old vhs or 8mm video tapes and put them on dvd in 5.1 surround sound can anyone tell me how to spit stereo into the left center tight live left surround right surround every time i try my receiver kicks into Dolby d but the sound only comes threw the front left and tight can anyone help me and if so a step by step would be a great help.

        • 2. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
          hill4t Level 1

          Ok so your saying i have to use a seperate app i can't do it with  Premiere Pro or Audition

          • 3. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
            the_wine_snob Level 9

            To create faux 5.1, here is my workflow:

             

            Create Project with 5.1 Master.

            Import 2-channel (Stereo) Clip.

            Duplicate that Clip onto another 2-channel Audio Track.

            In Audio Mixer, bias the original Clip's output, via the 5.1 sound stage, especially the Center Channel, and any LFE (I use that only for SFX)

            Bias the Duplicate Clip's output, as required.

            Add Delay and perhaps Reverb to the Duplicate Clip, adjusting the Levels.

            Use Minnetonka Audio/SurCode plug-in (optional at ~ US$ 350), to Encode to DD 5.1 SS AC3.

             

            Your ears will be the best judge in the creation of faux 5.1.

             

            Good luck,

             

            Hunt

            • 4. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
              hill4t Level 1

              Thank you MR. Hunt but not knowing much about Delay and Reverb it sounds to me like maybe Mr. Simon's sugestion might be my best way although i don't know much about DTS software either it looks like it might be an easyer methiod and thank you to both of you for your sugestons

              • 5. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                the_wine_snob Level 9

                Minnetonka Audio has a DTS Encoder, that works very well. It involves using that Encoder as a stand-alone, and I pre-process the Stream in Audition, before taking it to the DTS Encoder, for final output.

                 

                Remember, DTS is not one of the allowed "primary" Audio Streams, where DD 5.1 SS AC3 and Stereo are. One can add the DTS Stream in Encore, if authoring a DVD-Video, and the user can then select the DTS "supplemental" Stream, from either a supplied Menu, or via the player's Audio button.

                 

                Good luck,

                 

                Hunt

                • 6. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                  hill4t Level 1

                  Bill may i ask you do you have a yahoo name we can chat with if so can you hit me up on mine hill4t

                  • 7. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                    Level 4

                    dolby sound is copyrighted so that only those software programs who paid for the rights to use the patent can do it. Years ago CS3 could not do this unless you bought the minnetonka plug in for adobe cs3. I dont know if that's changed. To then 'burn' the stuff onto dvd you also needed the software to do THAT part of the operation ( DTS ). Vegas ver 8 ( that I had at the time I asked this very same question 3 years ago ) DID have the right to dolby surround sound 5.1 so I could open THAT program and get a feel for how the UI ( speakers) were arranged.. i.e. right front, left front, center, left rear, right rear etc. ..

                     

                    After Bill Hunt sent me about a zillion responses about how this stuff works ( PLUS ME printing a zillion pages of diagrams that I pinned on the wall next to my computer ) PLUS using vegas to see how it worked cause I did NOT buy the minnetonka plug in at that time ... I basically got the gist of whats going on with surround sound.

                     

                    Nobody in their right mind would even consider talking to you about this stuff before you do a very in depth exploration of what is involved and whether or not you can actually USE the information to create a real project you need to get done. I spent a year figuring this out with Bill and others and other programs..and in the end you get basically a lot of mono tracks that you have to manipulate into the different dolby tracks ( with fades and ramps etc ).. and create 3d sound out of mono stuff in each track.

                     

                    That's nice and fun..but AFTER THAT you have to own the program right to burn that to a DVD. Otherwise you're wasting your own time. PLUS you have to own the right to even DO IT in the editor to begin with ( plug in etc ). So if Bill looks at you like you have 3 heads, it's only cause he already went through all this with me about 2.4 years ago...and trust me.. it's not something you want to keep doing over and over... do some searching here... and you'll probably find threads to this whole thing and get all your questions answered.. and then deal with the license stuff and all that...

                     

                    sorry, but this is really not just a simple " how can I make this happen" question. If it was YOU being asked this question and you had Bill's experience, you would probably roll your eyes and think, " Who do I have to bribe to get out of this need to answer this again ? "

                     

                     

                    • 8. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                      hill4t Level 1

                      Thanks i already have the surcode though  was one of the first things i did after geting the cs collection i'm just not sure on how to make those seperate mono tracks so as to put it into an ac3 file that will resault in dolby d 5.1it's the process i'm not knowing

                      • 9. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                        Level 4

                        well...you have all your mono tracks on the timeline..and each one corrosponds to a speaker ( left front, right front, center, right rear, left rear. ...right ?? so put the mono stuff in the tracks for those 'speakers' and then use your audio stuff to fade in and out to make stuff sound like its moving around you.. like a helicopter flying from left to right, and back behind you etc... whatever you want to do...

                         

                        If you dont have the visual stuff to go along with the 'sound' ( like the action travels around you ) then its kinda pointless..you can just have the same mixed sound coming out of every speaker ( or basic stereo maybe for music)...

                         

                        thats it in a nutshell...put your stuff in the mono tracks that target each speaker..

                         

                        sorry if I sounded impatient but poor Bill has answered this stuff about a zillion times in the past year or so...and I know it cause I had to make diagrams and figure out how to make an elephant move from in front of me to behind me and around me, and in the end someone shot the elephant... so it wasn't exactly worth all the work on my part...

                         

                         

                        • 10. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                          Jim_Simon Level 8

                          Minnetonka Audio has a DTS Encoder

                           

                          There's a difference between encoding a DTS stream and upmixing stereo to 5.1.  Minetonka's encoder doesn't do the latter, which is what's being asked for here.

                          • 11. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                            I have no Yahoo presence, but you can click on my Profile, and choose Send Private Message, PM.

                             

                            Good luck,

                             

                            Hunt

                            • 12. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                              No, Minnetonka Audio's DTS Encoder creates a DTS Stream, to add to a DVD-Video, as a supplemental Audio Stream. Sorry for any confusion, but I cannot find where I mentioned using that Encoder for upmixing - only creating a DTS Audio Stream.

                               

                              Hunt

                               

                              Here are Minnetonka Audio's two DTS Encoders: http://www.minnetonkaaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=68:dtsr&catid= 34:surcode&Itemid=78

                              1 person found this helpful
                              • 13. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                Level 4

                                To make this even more complicated ( at least for me when I was learning it via Bill's help 2 years ago...I'm sure the threads are here somewhere for some searching results )...what the DTS has for speaker assignments is NOT necessarily the same as what various editors ( vegas, Ppro) have defined. I got real confused around this point and being a sound idiot I saved my notes etc for the future. I'm sure everyone here is making really cool surround sound blue ray discs and so on, but my gut feeling is ' listen to Bill's suggestions and most of all search here first for the basics ' ).

                                 

                                My DTS program screenshot...is this not minnetonka ?? yes, but not the same plug in for Ppro to do THAT PART of the process...Vegas is slightly different as well , and is built into it cause Sony has the rights to dolby.

                                 

                                DTS.jpg

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                good luck.. .I use mono for this...so I have complete control over the motion of the sound.

                                 

                                ps.. if stereo is coming out of one speaker..isnt that sorta like mono ? whats the point of having stereo left right if you want to play with surround sound, and let the 'program' decide what gets leaked into other channels ? why not control the whole thing ? I dont get it..I'm a sound idiot..if I want some of the left and right front speakers to 'share' some of the sounds I do that in a sound editing program before I put it on the timeline.

                                If you're on a set shooting with mics etc..each mic is going into a separate channel...mono... and if you shoot stereo sound you got two mics... in different positions to catch the difference in volume etc as the action happens... Isn't that sorta obvious ??

                                • 14. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                  Level 4

                                  ===========

                                  To create faux 5.1, here is my workflow:

                                  ========

                                   

                                  ahhh... I missed the faux part...and now understand its frequency by 'program' that directs to the various speakers..a fake surround sound for the sake of filling the speakers with sound...but has nothing to do with the action on screen.. I get it now...

                                   

                                  sorry.. I am a sound idiot...

                                  • 15. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                    hill4t Level 1

                                    Right i found that out the hard way but i have it anyway now

                                    • 16. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                      Level 4

                                      thats fantastic news ! now you can mark this post " answered" by your favorite helper and we can move on ?

                                       

                                      good luck !

                                       

                                       

                                      • 17. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                                        Rodney,

                                         

                                        I use mono Streams, as well. I break them out of a WMA 6-channel, in Audition, then add each to the SurCode DTS Encoder for final output.

                                         

                                        Your memory is good (actually better than mine... ).

                                         

                                        Hunt

                                        • 18. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                                          Rod,

                                           

                                          You are anything BUT an idiot.

                                           

                                          Ideally, 5.1 SS will be recorded as 5 channels of mono Audio (usually, the LFE is sort of "built" in the studio with a DAW, or even PrPro, using SFX files, and the like). Each feed is mic'ed separately (no stereo mics, in most cases), and then mixed specifically for 5.1. [Note: some engineers will use a stereo mic in the front, and let the phantom Center fill from that mic, but most will use 5 discrete mics.]

                                           

                                          For commercial distribution, it is frowned upon, when one takes a stereo Stream, and then "creates" 5.1 from that. With the Quadraphonic mix and release of Iron Butterfly's In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, sound engineers rebelled at the sound of the drum kit (22 piece, IIRC), flying about the audio stage. Shortly thereafter, an edict was issued to NOT create faux surround (it was Quadraphonic back then), when one did not have 4 discrete mics, for the mix. Now, we have 5.1, so the old four, plus Center, plus LFE.

                                           

                                          All that stuff said, one can often ("often" being the operative term here) create a nice 5.1 out of stereo, but it takes some work, and some listening. What I outlined is sort of the "outline" for doing it. If one is really serious, then they would strongly consider the environment shown in the video, and try to get the Delay and Reverb to match what they would imagine that environment would sound like.

                                           

                                          If one is only doing soundtrack music, wishing to add some dimension to the music, then my outlined faux 5.1 is a good starting place, and all one would care about would be that it sounds pretty good.

                                           

                                          If one has a stereo recording of Lord Liverworth speaking with Lady Caperberries, in the Great Hall of the castle, then they will need to do some more work with the Delay (how big IS that Great Hall, and how far from any wall, are the Lord & Lady?) and the Reverb (how resonant ARE those blocks of granite?).

                                           

                                          Then, if they have but stereo recording of the Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra in Royal Albert Hall, there is MUCH more work for faux 5.1.

                                           

                                          In nearly all of my instances, it's just simple music soundtrack, and the desire to create some depth for a 5.1 SS system. In my case, the AES members might frown, but I am OK with that.

                                           

                                          Hunt

                                          • 19. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                            Level 4

                                            Thanks for that explanation Bill...

                                            Funny you mentioned quadrophonic.. I was trying to remember that word earlier...as my brother brought home a hot shot quad system with a reel to reel tape deck from Tokyo during vietnam.. cost about $ 10 compared to $6000.00 in the U.S. I think.

                                             

                                            Anyway, his quad system had settings on it so that normal stereo would be broken up by frequency and directed to various speakers.. but I don't remember much about it... as I was forbidden to go near his cool stuff under penalty of death.

                                             

                                             

                                            • 20. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                              hill4t Level 1

                                              Bill i understand that you have to use the six mono chanels but how do i get all 6 from a single stereo file thats the part i'm lost on as i said in the begining i'm taking from 8mm and vhs where it is stereo not mono so i need to create that from the file there is my big hang up

                                              • 21. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                                Level 4

                                                Hill4t,

                                                I think the post #3 sorta covers the basics.. you have to choose how much you want to manipulate your stereo track to make believe it was recorded for 5.1 surround. Or whether you just want to duplicate what your stereo front speakers have to the back speakers ( and a mix of those to the center speaker etc ). That's why he mentions 'delay' and 'reverb'...to 'simulate' some bouncing of sound off some imagined architecture behind you for example. Dont know what your movie ( where it is..outside, inside ...??? but you can sorta just make up your mind how you want to handle the simulation part )

                                                I use SoundForge mostly for sound stuff if I do things 'before' I import to Ppro. so if I was doing what you want to do I would put the stereo track into soundForge and then create two new mono tracks ( blank ) and copy paste my left stereo into one mono track and the other side of stereo into the 2nd mono track and save those mono tracks with name like " front left" and " Front Right "..and then create 5.1 audio ( preferences ) for project and then use put those mono tracks where they belong... then play with the 'sound' ( delay , reverb etc if I want ) and fill in the other speakers...and use your controls to adj volumes etc ( maybe keyframe some )...

                                                Bill will respond to your question but meantime maybe you can read the #3 post again, and see if you wanna go the stereo route or the mono route or whatever ??  Good luck..

                                                Don't forget, by default once you export as 5.1 some stuff may happen due to your hardware setup for your surround system so you might wanna do a short 'test' before you go too far in the project...you know ?

                                                 

                                                 

                                                 

                                                ps.. once you create the 5.1 project you can just add stereo tracks etc as needed in your project...

                                                • 22. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                  I Export the DD 5.1 SS from PrPro as a multi-channel WMA file. That is then Opened in Audition Multi-Track mode, where I have the discrete channels for tweaking. I then Export the individual channels from Audition as six discrete mono files.

                                                   

                                                  Good luck,

                                                   

                                                  Hunt

                                                  • 23. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                                    Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                    how do i get all 6 from a single stereo file

                                                     

                                                    Not with Bill's technique.  You need upmixing software to do this right..

                                                     

                                                    http://www.dts.com/dts-store/products/software/neural-upmix-by-dts.aspx

                                                    1 person found this helpful
                                                    • 24. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                                      hill4t Level 1

                                                      Ok thanks do it that way then knowing that i need a separate software ok thank you i just wanted to be sure i ruled out all possibilities thank you all

                                                      • 25. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                                        Level 4

                                                        This is gonna get complicated..so I'm gonna put pics in first and then explain them cause I dont remember what order I made the pics in...plus I'm an idiot so my explanation will be weird.. plus I never do this stuff can im using cs3...

                                                         

                                                        basically this is what I did. created new project and in preferences chose 5.1 surround...chose a few mono track, a couple stereo tracks, a few submix tracks and some 5.1 tracks..something for everyone..

                                                        Then I put a real stereo wav file into a stereo track. The left and right sides were recorded so that it is REALLY stereo and very obvious ( old beatle song ).  You can tell by waveform how different left and right side of stereo wav file is...

                                                         

                                                        then i opened soundforge and copied ONLY the left channel of the stereo wav file and saved it as a MONO file...so I can demonstrate THAT part..

                                                         

                                                        using stereo wav and using 5.1 control you can put that wav into left front, right front, etc..but it puts it ALL there unless you play with stuff a LOT in your controls...to me its easier to make a mono wav file of the left side and just use that. I would have made a right side only wav ALSO if I was to continue with this project ...

                                                         

                                                        default sound.jpg

                                                        above image is where you choose what to add to project

                                                         

                                                        surround1.jpg

                                                        some controls ..you can assign to submix and you can use as a master..etc

                                                        above image is real stereo wav in stereo track..like yours...

                                                         

                                                        LeftSide1.jpg

                                                        above is making a mono track wav out of the stereo left side of original stereo wav..

                                                         

                                                        surroundMonoAndStereo.jpg

                                                         

                                                        above.. now if I put my mono wav into that track and move my dot to front left... I hear only the left part of the original stereo wav in the left front speaker... in essence I can put mono track of 'right' side into the right front speaker using another mono track and moving the dot.. I can also now put that stuff into the other speakers as desired..and mix the volumes etc in the sound controls ... know what I mean..you can do other stuff with the stereo only wav if you cant make mono tracks for more control...and play with the submix stuff etc.. this should get you started ??

                                                         

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        ps.. I also made a stereo wav of the left side ONLY just in case you wanted to see what that looks like in a stereo track..but its only left side of original wav..

                                                         

                                                        good luck !

                                                        1 person found this helpful
                                                        • 26. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                                          Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                          There's a lot going on to get a proper upmix from a stereo track, especially where a decent stereo music mix is concerned.  You will not be able to do it manually like proper upmixing software can.

                                                          1 person found this helpful
                                                          • 27. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                                            hill4t Level 1

                                                            Thank you i like your screen shoots as well however you had to use a separate app in your case soundforge to make the mono so it is the same idea as what jim suggested with the DTS either way i need another app but thank you for the feed back

                                                            • 28. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                                              hill4t Level 1

                                                              Witch is why you sugested the DTS software to do it

                                                              • 29. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                                                Level 4

                                                                well... I put a screenshot of the dts surcode thingy up there cause thats the 'other' step to burn to dvd ( surround ).. and that got really wanky on me when i was testing stuff a couple years ago... but thats not the same software jim is talking about I dont think.. dont know...didnt check that.

                                                                 

                                                                anyway, if you use your volume sliders on stereo track with stereo wav file you can sorta move the left side submix and then use that to move around to other speakers..there's lots of ways to skin cat...( poor cats ! ).

                                                                 

                                                                i think the whole thing here for me got confused cause i sorta missed the "faux" thing...LOL...fake...why not ??

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                • 30. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                  Witch is why you sugested the DTS software to do it

                                                                   

                                                                  Yes.  Here's another free plug-in I found.  It's older and I don't know if it'll work with Audition, but it might be worth trying out just because it's free.

                                                                   

                                                                  http://www.stevethomson.ca/vi/

                                                                  • 31. Re: How to turn stereo into 5.1 suround sound
                                                                    hill4t Level 1

                                                                    Thanks for the try but that won't work it's a windows exe not mac compadible