12 Replies Latest reply on Sep 11, 2015 1:27 PM by Peter Spier

    Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders

    Moscool33

      Hello

       

      I have been through countless tutorials and I am starting to wonder if the softare doesn't do what to me appears as a key, basic, compulsory requirement! Here we go:

       

      I want to create training documents which have different left and right pages, with the option to add remove and shuffle pages depending on the course on the day, with all titles and graphics correctly aligned to left or right page format.

       

      So I created Masters for the left and right pages which have both graphic elements and page numbers, but also text placeholders with different positions depending if it is on the left or right and different text alignments. The Masters use specific paragraph styles for a number of text boxes which look different depending if they are on the left or right page.

       

      This is where the problems starts:

       

      1) I cannot seem to be able to put empty, editable, text placeholders in my Master. As a result, I have to create text boxes inside the Master but then of course these are not directly editable. Of course I can override the Master (Command-****-click) and input the appropriate text in the newly 'liberated' text placeholder. The problem is that, as I move pages around, any Left/Right specificity gets lost: the override has killed the link to the Master

       

      2) There seems to be a similar problem for graphic elements in the body of the page: if they are centered on a left page and then the page becomes a right page due to insertion or moving pages around, then the graphic elements move around and their horizontal alignment is incorrect

       

      3) Finally, if I insert blank pages there are weird things happening, suc has the Master being reapplied to some pages and resulting in two layers of text boxes.

       

      Help!!!  Thanks

        • 1. Re: Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          What you are describing is normal behavior for master pages and facing pages documents when you force pages to switch sides by adding or removing an odd number of pages.

           

          The Auto-flow Pro plugin from In-Tools.com may be able to help you. http://in-tools.com/products/plugins/autoflow-pro/

          • 2. Re: Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders
            Moscool33 Level 1

            Thanks Peter

             

            It is hard to believe that something as basic as this is not covered by ID. Obviously any word processor where you can set different odd/even pages does that (but of course brings in its own problems in other areas). It also contradicts the Adobe help file here

             

            Quote: "Masters commonly contain repeating logos, page numbers, headers, and footers. They can also contain empty text or graphic frames that serve as placeholders on document pages. "

             

            Flummoxed...


            • 3. Re: Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              Master objects must be overridden if you want to add or edit content. When you do this the content is no longer linked to the the master page, though other parameters such as shape and position of the frame remain linked. If you use the master frames for things that don't need overidding, headers, page numbers, or similar, then there is no problem with changing sides, but if you've overridden a frame that frame remains onthe document page in addition to a new master frame when you apply a new master, which is essentially what happens when you switch sides.

               

              In my opinion, the use of master text frames as placeholders is usually a bad idea for precisely this reason.

              • 4. Re: Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders
                TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                What about the new "primary text frame" inCS6? I think that goes a long

                way to alleviating the text problems described.

                 

                Ariel

                • 5. Re: Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders
                  peter minneapolis Level 4

                  Word processors usually contain all content in a single threaded text flow. In ID, a single text frame or a series of threaded text frames are a story. Word processors don't offer the ability to "move pages around." If you mean by this cutting and pasting, or dragging, pages to different locations in a document, then threaded stories will work differently from when they're in consecutive sequence.

                   

                  Screenshots of your layout, or mockups, would help us forum folks understand what you are doing and what you expect. Turn on Type > Show Hidden Characters, and View > Show Text Threads or View > Extras > Show Text Threads and select a text frame.

                   

                   

                  HTH

                   

                   

                  Regards,

                   

                   

                  Peter

                  _______________________

                  Peter Gold

                  KnowHow ProServices

                   

                  Moscool33 wrote:

                   

                  Thanks Peter

                   

                  It is hard to believe that something as basic as this is not covered by ID. Obviously any word processor where you can set different odd/even pages does that (but of course brings in its own problems in other areas). It also contradicts the Adobe help file here

                   

                  Quote: "Masters commonly contain repeating logos, page numbers, headers, and footers. They can also contain empty text or graphic frames that serve as placeholders on document pages. "

                   

                  Flummoxed...


                  • 6. Re: Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders
                    Moscool33 Level 1

                    Thanks Peter G

                     

                    Here are a few screenshots to explain:

                     

                    1) The Masters (left and right)

                     

                    Screen Shot 2013-01-20 at 23.46.20.png

                     

                    2) A couple of modified pages based on the Master (command-shift click on each of the relevant textplaceholders followed by overtyping)

                     

                    Screen Shot 2013-01-20 at 23.47.08.png

                     

                    3) When either inserting new pages or moving pages around the next pages see the Master reapplied. So if I insert a new page after 4, then 5 is a blank with new Master (which is OK) but 6 and 7 also get teh Master reapplied as below. In addition, the change of pages from left to right (because of the inserted page) mean that the boxes and style alignment are wrong. What I want to achieve is: "if a page happens to be on the left, then apply that text frame position and also apply that paragraph style; if it is on the right, then do the contrary". As I said above, this is what you achieve to a degree in word processors that have alternate headers. There's gotta be a way!

                     

                    Screen Shot 2013-01-20 at 23.49.04.png

                    • 7. Re: Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders
                      peter minneapolis Level 4

                      Is there a reason that Primary headings need to be on master pages? It appears that the logos and graphic lines, as well as footers, are good master page candidates. Document page content would overlie the master backgrounds.

                       

                       

                      HTH

                       

                       

                      Regards,

                       

                       

                      Peter

                      _______________________

                      Peter Gold

                      KnowHow ProServices

                      • 8. Re: Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders
                        Moscool

                        Thanks Peter

                         

                        Yes I'm considering leaving the Master text boxes empty so that I get at least some sort of placeholders (the little dots). This works but brings in other problems with styles e.g. the text boxes on the master are correctly aligned for vertical alignment of text top of page is centered, further down is top-aligned), whereas you would need  to respecify each time if not overriding the master.

                        • 9. Re: Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders
                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                          Have you looked at using Running Header variables to populate the headers? That would eliminate the need to override them, if you can find a way to make them usable. You can handle the other alignment problems, I suspect, through object styles, or even by adjusting the position of the frame vertically on the page.

                          • 10. Re: Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders
                            MrsLucking

                            I'm running into the same exact problem.  Was it solved satisfactorily?  I read that using the master for text placeholders is not a good practice.  But then I don't understand how I can easily add content to page after page without having to literally set-up each page manually?  Isn't the point of a master sheet to be able to put styled frames in place to hold content so it's all consistent throughout??? 

                             

                            I have a left aligned header and a right aligned header.  And if I had to add or delete a page EVERY PAGE after that would become shifted and aligned opposite.  I'm so frustrated because I don't know how to create this 100 page book of facing pages, each with a DIFFERENT header content, and have it carry the left/right alignment throughout automatically. 

                            • 11. Re: Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders
                              MrsLucking Level 1

                              When you say placing text placeholders in a master is a bad use of the master, where would you suggest placing text placeholders that will propagate across a document?   I have a 100 page booklet with a header, sub header, content on each page.  All basically set-up the same.  I want to paste in my content one page at a time without having to redraw every box and reapply every style.  Where would I create master text boxes so this is simple if not in the master? 

                               

                              Then, I have the same problem as the original poster.  My left header is aligned left (and always unique) and my right header is aligned right (and always unique).  So I type in my unique header content.  Then I have to add a page (or delete one) and EVERYTHING gets shifted and reversed following the new page.

                               

                              The simple question is:  How do I create a unique header placeholder on each page that is linked to the master alignment rule so it flows when pages are added or deleted?? 

                              • 12. Re: Conceptual problem with Masters and text placeholders
                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                The kinds of problems you are seeing are exactly why I don't suggest using placeholder frames on the master page. If you choose to use them this way, you must be prepared for this to happen and to do some manual intervention.

                                 

                                You can define object styles that contain the formatting for the text in the different types of frames (and use these for either placeholders or new frames). You should consider creating a full-width frame for the headers, then setting the paragraph alignment to towards or away from spine (depending on what you need) in the paragraph style you use in the headers.