1 2 Previous Next 64 Replies Latest reply on Mar 20, 2013 1:15 PM by gator soup

    Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)

    gator soup Level 4

      I'm stumped trying to understand how to use Acrobat's View> Tools> Print Production> Convert Colors settings.

       

      I simply want to Convert all tagged elements to a single Destination profile.

       

      I created this control set of 10 PDI images (in one PDF) of five color spaces (five tagged/untagged pairs):

      gballard.net/photoshop/pdi_download/PDI_Color_Profile_Test.pdf

      The control file displays as expected: untagged are Assuming sRGB (for lack of a better term) and tagged are being Converted to Monitor RGB.

       

      I made my two most obvious guesses at the settings (see below), but both appear to be wrong (a sucessfull Conversion would at least display all the tagged elements the same, correctly, yes?).

       

      Any idea what I may be missing?

        • 1. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
          gator soup Level 4

          This one (open thumbnail below to examine settings)

          CONVERSION OPTIONS

          Convert Command: Convert to Profile

          Conversion Profile: Whacked RGB

          Output Intent (checked): Convert Colors to Output Intent: Profile: WhackedRGB.icc

           

          NOTE: None of the tagged elements display proper except WhackedRGB pair

          (I think Output Intent is Assigning Whacked RGB before Converting?)

           

          w2.png

          • 2. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
            gator soup Level 4

            This one (open thumbnail below to examine settings)

            CONVERSION OPTIONS

            Convert Command: Convert to Profile

            Conversion Profile: Whacked RGB

            Output Intent (unchecked)

             

            NOTE: None of the tagged elements display proper except WhackedRGB pair

            (This was my first instinct how to perform the desired transform)...


            w1.png

            • 3. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
              gator soup Level 4

              .

              .

              Again, my goal is to SIMPLY Convert all Tagged elements within a .pdf to a single Tagged Destination Profile...

              • 4. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                gator soup Level 4

                .

                .

                i only ask if anyone knows how to set up a basic Source> Destination Conversion because i have done several jobs in the past where i thought i knew what was happening apparently wasn't -- now that i set up a controlled scenario with profiles that show i don't have a clue how to make basic Conversions in Acrobat

                • 5. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                  G.Hoffmann Level 3

                  Gator,

                   

                  for me it's not clear, what you're trying to prove. Therefore let me show you my test,

                  which demonstrates that Convert Color works with CS2/Acrobat 8 correctly.

                   

                  This is a doc with several different images with embedded profiles, CMYK as well,

                  therefore more than 3MByte. Of course this doc doesn't have an Output Intent:

                   

                  http://docs-hoffmann.de/colpdf27022008.pdf

                   

                  With correct settings in Acrobat the images are looking 'as expected' or 'normal'.

                   

                  Then I hade converted for the whole doc all color spaces to ProPhotoRGB. Then

                  added the Output Intent Prophoto RGB. The doc has now only some hundred kBytes. 

                   

                  http://docs-hoffmann.de/colpdf27022008-ProPhoto.pdf 

                   

                  As fas as I can see, the images are correctly reproduced by Acrobat. Of course

                  one has to take care that the Output Intent is honoured.

                   

                  This example reflects a kind of standard workflow - creating a clean PDF.

                   

                  If your problem should arise from a newer version of Acrobat, then I cannot help

                   

                  Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                  1 person found this helpful
                  • 6. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                    gator soup Level 4
                    for me it's not clear, what you're trying to prove

                     

                    i am trying to prove that tagged elements actually Convert to a destination profile

                     

                    i am using Acrobat 10.1 (not using Distiller directly)

                     

                    i am not sure what Output Intent is and that may be where my tests are broken, but Checked or Unchecked the tagged elements don't appear to have been Converted (or they would all look correct)

                     

                    i am familiar with Source and Destination, but Acrobat doesn't use that terminology

                     

                    +++++++

                     

                    would it be possible for you to run my pdf one time through your process (Convert to Whacked or ProPhoto destination so the results are obvious) and post a screenshot of the thumbnails similar to my examples

                     

                    +++++++

                     

                    the real-world scenario would be to receive one PDF with several tagged elements -- for example, a vector logo in one CMYK space, text and filled boxes in another CMYK space, and two RGB elements in ProPhoto and sRGB -- and convert them all to a single destination profile

                     

                    i previously believed Acrobat's Print Production> Convert Colors would convert all tagged elements to the single destination profile

                     

                    it is clear i don't understand what's going on, but i want to...


                    • 7. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                      G.Hoffmann Level 3

                      Sorry, I cannot apply Convert Colors to your doc - the PDF seems to be protected

                      or locked.

                       

                      Meanwhile again my results, may be in other words.

                       

                      My first doc contains images in 6 color spaces, two different RGBs (not ProPhoto),

                      two different CMYKs and two Grays. RGB and CMYK images are 'tagged', the source

                      profiles are embedded.  For InDesign CS2 and Acrobat 7/8 this fails for Gray images -

                      we have untagged device gray.

                      All this can be found by PDF Analysis, Search Tagged Images or something like that

                      Thus I can say: at least two RGB and two CMYK images, all of them tagged, using

                      four profiles correctly.

                      Now comes Convert Colors. No Preserve, use Convert for all spaces (which may

                      contain Lab as well, but not here). Destination profile is ProPhoto and this profile

                      is used as Output Intent and embedded, but only once!

                      As a result I get in the second PDF all images in Device Color without a profile,

                      but Output Intent is ProPhoto.This can be shown by PDF Analysis.

                      I know - alle these numbers have their correct meaning only in ProPhoto RGB,

                      and the appearance of these images is correct. In Acrobat I'm using the option

                      'Output Intent Overrides Color Settings'. All this together proves that the

                      conversion had been executed correctly. If this shouldn't be enough, then we

                      could Extract All Images (into a folder) and analyze further by Photoshop

                      (The real Names for menue items may be a little different).

                       

                      For me, the only remaining problem are the Gray spaces. These are buggy since

                      about 15 years, and I'not willing to buy new software, hoping, this bug (essentially

                      in InDesign) might be repaired meanwhile. I got used to pack gray images in the

                      K-plate of CMYK - which results in a well defined CMYK color space.

                       

                      I hope this helps a little. If you unlock your PDF then I can try to Convert Colors.

                       

                      Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                      • 8. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                        gator soup Level 4

                        If you unlock your PDF then I can try to Convert Colors.

                         

                        Okay, try it again (I disabled its security):

                        http://www.gballard.net/photoshop/pdi_download/PDI_Color_Profile_Test.pdf

                         

                        Acrobat 10.1x | View> Tools> Print Production> Convert Colors  shows these options, any clues to simply Convert all tagged elements to the the Destination profile will be greatly appreciated (targeting destination WhackedRGB profile (or ProPhotoRGB) will make any problem much easier for me to observe):

                         

                        Convert.jpg

                         

                        Note: my pea brain power limits my ability to judge a proper conversion by opening the Converted .pdf in Acrobat and seeing if the tagged elements are displaying properly (ie, they visually "match" as they do in my download).

                         

                        Thank you for your time, Gernot...

                        • 9. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                          G.Hoffmann Level 3

                          Hello Gator,

                           

                          here comes the modified PDF:

                           

                          http://docs-hoffmann.de/PDI_Color_Profile_Test-ProPhoto.pdf

                           

                          Convert Device RGB to ProPhoto

                          Convert Calibrated RGB to ProPhoto

                          (Nothing preserved)

                          Define Output Intent by ProPhoto

                           

                          Please tell us here your conclusions.

                           

                          Personally I don't know what we should expect for Device-RGB-images (not tagged).

                           

                          Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                          • 10. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                            gator soup Level 4

                            Thank you!

                            It looks to me all that happened was the process stripped the embedded profiles from the tagged set -- each matched pair has the appearance if I "Soft Proofed" Monitor RGB or sRGB (I am not sure which because they are very close, but nothing looks like ProPhoto except the ProPhoto set).

                             

                            What do you think, does it look like anything was Converted to ProPhoto?

                             

                            Screenshot.jpg

                             

                            Clearly Acrobat Convert Colors isn't working (or what am I missing here?)...

                            • 11. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                              gator soup Level 4

                              BTW, here is the original set (screenshot):

                               

                              the Tagged left column all "match" (Source> Monitor conversion)

                              the untagged right column each look very close to your test

                               

                              Original.jpg

                              • 12. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                G.Hoffmann Level 3

                                Gator,

                                 

                                in my opinion the operation Convert Color (here in Acrobat 8)

                                works correctly for

                                - tagged RGB images

                                - tagged CMYK images

                                 

                                For the moment I'm excluding color swatches, Grayscale images

                                and untagged images.

                                 

                                I regret - your test is for me too complex.

                                Again a test with this manipulated PDF:

                                 

                                http://docs-hoffmann.de/colpdf27022008-ProPhoto.pdf

                                 

                                In Photoshop's color settings use sRGB.

                                Load the page with the faces in mode RGB.

                                All colors appear desaturated (because the numbers in ProPhoto are

                                too small for sRGB, so to speak).

                                 

                                Now assign the profile ProPhotoRGB. Voilà - all colors appear as

                                expected.

                                 

                                What happens in view by Acrobat? If we choose 'Output Intent

                                overrides color settings', then the appearance is correct.

                                 

                                Who wants to Convert everything to ProPhotoRGB? Normally

                                nobody, but if the RIP for a large format printer is unable to handle

                                CIELab correctly, then ProPhoto might be a choice (I had done just

                                these tests some years ago, using ColorGate Production Server).

                                 

                                A more practical application is PDF/X-1a - everything converted

                                into a specific CMYK space, here ISOCoated v2-eci, in one pass

                                by Acrobat.

                                Of course it's better to convert the images deliberately by Photoshop,

                                with checks by Soft Proof.

                                The Output Intent is here used only for the correct preview, it is

                                prohibited to apply further conversions.

                                 

                                Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                                 

                                Original PDF (not manipulated):

                                http://docs-hoffmann.de/colpdf27022008.pdf

                                • 13. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                  gator soup Level 4

                                  your test is for me too complex.

                                   

                                  i don't know how my test could be set up or concluded any more simply -- if seeing is believing

                                   

                                  in my opinion the operation Convert Color (here in Acrobat 8)

                                  works correctly

                                   

                                  in my post #10 -- i posted a screenshot of your Acrobat 8 Convert Color (of my .pdf)

                                   

                                  that screenshot shows none of the tagged files in your converted set are displaying properly as they do in my original .pdf (post #11 screenshot)

                                   

                                  my observation is simple:

                                   

                                  if Convert Color was working correctly, then Acrobat should display the converted tagged elements properly regardless if they are sRGB, ProPhotoRGB, AdobeRGB or WhackedRGB

                                   

                                  i am obviously missing something here...


                                  • 14. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                    gator soup Level 4

                                    still curious to understand what i am seeing

                                    i opened one of my Converted .pdf documents in Photoshop and opened each of the five tagged elements (see screenshot)

                                     

                                    Photoshop_Opinion.jpg

                                     

                                    the results are clear and convincing what happened

                                    and i could easily duplicate these results in Photoshop by:

                                     

                                    1. open each original Tagged file (use embedded profile),
                                    2. Assign Profile: Monitor RGB (or possibly sRGB as mine are pretty close),
                                    3. Convert to Profile> Destination Space: Whacked RGB
                                    4. Save with embedded Whacked RGB ICC profile

                                     

                                    moreover, my original un-tagged images -- opened from my Converted Colors pdf -- also appear to have been Assigned MonitorRGB and Converted to Whacked RGB and Saved with the Whacked profile during Acrobats Convert Colors process using the below settings

                                     

                                    and that theory supports what i am seeing in my original and Converted Colors Acrobat documents

                                     

                                    here is a screenshot of the settings i used in the converted pdf that i opened in Photoshop

                                     

                                    2.jpg

                                    • 15. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                      G.Hoffmann Level 3

                                      Gator,

                                       

                                      let me start citing a famous song:

                                       

                                      "Leonard Cohen

                                      You know who I am

                                       

                                      I cannot follow you, my love,

                                      you cannot follow me."

                                       

                                      Now I suggest a 'crucial experiment':

                                       

                                      A Gretag-Macbeth Color Checker, as defined by CIELab, with printed CIELab numbers

                                      in the patches, is placed in an InDesign doc, and exported as PDF, with colors unchanged:

                                      colorchecker-lab.pdf

                                       

                                      Then, Convert Colors by Acrobat is applied to this doc - Convert Lab to PropPhotoRGB and add

                                      Output Intent ProPhoto, saved as:

                                      colorchecker-prophoto.pdf

                                       

                                      Open this doc in Photoshop in mode RGB and assign ProPhoto.

                                       

                                      Then use Info and show the Lab values. If these are identical or very near to the original

                                      Lab values, as indicated in the original graphic - wouldn't this prove or demonstrate, that

                                      the conversions had been executed correctly?

                                       

                                      Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                                      • 16. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                        gator soup Level 4

                                        Gernot, that's pretty complicated experiment (for me to pull off)...

                                         

                                        my color management mantra boils down to what i can see:

                                         

                                                      "the proof is in the pudding (and the proof is where I rest my case)"

                                         

                                        my monitors appear to me (even in your converted pdf of my original) Acrobat's Convert Colors process "Assumed" Monitor RGB (or its working sRGB) and then Converted to my "Destination" space — and Photoshop clearly supports that theory as i posted above

                                         

                                        if your theory is Acrobat is correctly converting my tagged RGB images — Adobe ACE (CMS) is just using the wrong Source profile to display — i can't argue that EXCEPT the untagged images "match" their tagged mates (that's why I believe Acrobat is Assuming one source profile to Convert colors)

                                         

                                        but (excuse that), would not that scenario ALSO provide Adobe ACE with the wrong Source profile during a color-managed printing process (Source> Printer/Paper/Ink profile)?

                                         

                                        So what good is Converting colors to a tagged PDF if the tag is wrong?

                                         

                                        again, i am obviously missing something very basic about how Acrobat handles its Source> Destination conversions (not the least of which are the Adobe geniuses' unfamiliar terminology and UI)...

                                        • 17. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                          gator soup Level 4

                                          Gernot, i believe I figured out what is going on:

                                           

                                          During Acrobat's "Convert Colors" process (using my conversion settings):

                                           

                                          1. Acrobat IGNORES the profiles embedded in my RGB images.
                                          2. Acrobat "Assumes" its Working RGB profile (on all Tagged/Untagged images) and then
                                          3. Acrobat "Converts" everything to the Destination profile and embeds that profile.

                                           

                                          if you are interested in the screenshots that I believe prove this, feel free to look at post #10 here http://forums.adobe.com/message/5080394

                                          • 18. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                            Larry Tseng Level 1

                                            Gator,

                                             

                                            I have at times been confused about what Acrobat does with color conversion. When I color converted your pdf in Acrobat 10, I get what both you and Gernot got. The result seems to indicate that the embedded source profiles are being thrown out. But why? I don’t have an answer to that, but I did do a simple test.

                                             

                                            I exported an RGB 202,36,40 vector patch from InDesign to pdf twice, once with an sRGB source profile embedded, and another with no profile attached.  My idea was to compare the result with the equivalent setup in Photoshop.

                                             

                                            Here is what I got for the RGB 202,36,40 source:

                                             

                                            A. Case of sRGB source converted to AdobeRGB1998.

                                            1. Photoshop reference.

                                            -- assign sRGB to the image

                                            -- convert to AdobeRGB1998 (RelCol with BPC)

                                            -- 32-bit readout on the info panel: 0.678, 0.161, 0.173

                                                      (expressed as whole percentages, we have 68%, 16%, 17%)

                                            2. Pdf with embedded sRGB source profile.

                                            -- convert to AdobeRGB1998 (RelCol with BPC)

                                            -- Output Preview Separations Preview using AdobeRGB1998 simulation profile: 68%, 16%, 17%

                                            3. Conclusion: Acrobat color conversion produced the same result as Photoshop.

                                             

                                            B. Case of deviceRGB source converted to AdobeRGB1998.

                                            1. Photoshop reference.

                                            -- assign AppleRGB to the image

                                            -- convert to AdobeRGB1998 (RelCol with BPC)

                                            -- 32-bit readout on the info panel: 0.737, 0.243, 0.224

                                                      (expressed as whole percentages, we have 74%, 24%, 22%)

                                            2. Pdf with deviceRGB source (no source profile attached)

                                            -- set Apple RGB as the default colorspace for RGB in preferences

                                            -- convert to AdobeRGB1998 (RelCol with BPC)

                                            -- Output Preview Separations Preview using AdobeRGB1998 simulation profile: 74%, 24%, 22%

                                            3. Conclusion: Acrobat color conversion produced the same result as Photoshop.

                                             

                                            The convert colors function in Acrobat seems to be working for this simple case.

                                             

                                            Here’s a link to my test files in case you'd like to try.

                                             

                                            Regards,

                                             

                                            Larry

                                            • 19. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                              gator soup Level 4

                                              thank you so much for dropping in, Larry

                                               

                                              i looked at your test files

                                               

                                              may i suggest you base your RGB .tifs on something a lot wider like ProPhotoRGB, and your Acrobat Working RGB to something bizarre like Whacked RGB (or vice versa) because any error will be visually obvious?

                                               

                                              because, if your tif is sRGB (tagged or untagged) and Acrobat's Working RGB is sRGB, Acrobat will display them correctly -- moreover -- Acrobat Convert Colors process will make the correct Assumption if its source images are sRGB (tagged or untagged) and its Working RGB is sRGB and I wouldn't expect to see any problems in any case

                                              • 20. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                G.Hoffmann Level 3

                                                Larry,

                                                thanks for joining our discussion.

                                                A document in InDesign has alwas a document color space RGB and one CMYK

                                                and one (implicitly defined) Gray.

                                                Convert Color for untagged images or swatches is based always on the assumption

                                                that these spaces are sources (therefore it's obviously nonsense to embed untagged

                                                RGB images with different spaces, dto for CMYK).

                                                Would you agree, so far?

                                                 

                                                And Gator...

                                                Here comes the ultimate test.

                                                 

                                                Document space sRGB, upper EPS Lab, lower EPS sRGB untagged

                                                http://docs-hoffmann.de/cchecker-lab-srgb.pdf

                                                 

                                                Convert Color (everything) to ProPhoto and add ProPhoto as Output intent:

                                                http://docs-hoffmann.de/cchecker-lab-srgb-ProPhoto.pdf

                                                 

                                                Open the second doc in Photoshop, assign ProPhoto (Output Intent is ignored

                                                by Photoshop) and read color values by Info. Read Lab numbers directly,

                                                but for reading sRGB values one needs Convert to sRGB.

                                                 

                                                Not only the appearance is correct, as well the number are correct, but because

                                                of so many conversions small deviations are allowed.

                                                 

                                                Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                                                • 21. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                  gator soup Level 4

                                                  the ultimate test.

                                                   

                                                  your test, my test...

                                                   

                                                  i use my types of RGB source images in my desktop business and can't remember ever taking a file into lab (or receiving a lab document from a client) so it is hard for me to open my mind to the relevance of your test when my tests are clear and convincing

                                                   

                                                  yet you say your test works, i believe you, though i find it hard to see what you are doing without screenshots

                                                   

                                                  for my purposes -- the types of real-world RGB images i use on a daily basis -- Acrobat "convert colors" works like my notes and screenshots indicate


                                                  seeing is believing...

                                                  • 22. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                    gator soup Level 4

                                                    PS:

                                                     

                                                    Gernot, if you (or anyone else) can use an Acrobat "Convert Colors" maneuver to properly convert the Tagged images in my PDI_Color_Profile_Test.pdf to a single tagged destination profile (RGB or CMYK) -- I will be grateful if you could provide a screenshot of your View> Tools> Print Production> Convert Colors settings.

                                                    • 23. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                      gator soup Level 4

                                                      Gernot, if you are still there.

                                                       

                                                      I don't understand your cchecker-lab-srgb.pdf


                                                      I open it in Photoshop CS6 and CS5.1 and do not hit a profile warning (ProPhotoRGB or sRGB working RGB) -- that's really odd in my experience:

                                                       

                                                      settingsPPrgb.jpg

                                                       

                                                      Acrobat's Object Inspector references LabProfile:

                                                       

                                                      AcroInspector.jpg

                                                       

                                                      Is Lab an ICC profile?

                                                       

                                                      How do I display it properly in Photoshop (what source profile do I assign)?

                                                       

                                                      Sorry, I don't know anything about Lab.

                                                      • 24. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                        G.Hoffmann Level 3

                                                        Gator,

                                                         

                                                        the first doc

                                                        http://docs-hoffmann.de/cchecker-lab-srgb.pdf

                                                         

                                                        contains two EPS-vector-graphics. The upper defines colors in Lab (CIELab).

                                                        Lab is device independent - no ICC profile is required, none exists. Conversions

                                                        are algorithmically established in programs, like my EPS program generator

                                                        in PostScript.

                                                        The lower graphic defines colors in sRGB, no profile is embedded.

                                                         

                                                        In Photoshop:

                                                        Use sRGB as RGB space in Color settings. Open the doc in mode Lab.

                                                        Lab is handled automatically. RGB is handled correctly because of global

                                                        settings sRGB.

                                                        [opening in mode RGB is possible as well, but then Lab numbers are wrong

                                                        for #18 top, which is out-of-gamut for sRGB].

                                                         

                                                        Next step in Acrobat: Convert Colors to Prophoto is applied to the whole doc,

                                                        Output Intent ProPhoto is assigned. Lab is gone, but the upper graphic is converted

                                                        to ProPhoto without clipping (therefore Lab can be reconstructed in Photoshop).

                                                        http://docs-hoffmann.de/cchecker-lab-srgb-ProPhoto.pdf

                                                         

                                                        In Photoshop:

                                                        Still use sRGB as RGB space. Open doc in mode RGB. All colors are apparently

                                                        desaturated. Now assign Prophoto. Now all colors appear as they should.

                                                        Measure Lab numbers by Info - they are almost as given by the printed numbers.

                                                        This comparison - printed numbers, numbers by Info - is in my humble opinion

                                                        of great value.

                                                        For measuring the RGB values one has to Convert to sRGB. Without doing this

                                                        the numbers are still in Prophoto, whereas the appearance is that of sRGB.

                                                         

                                                        Obviously, even without using the Lab demo, we can see that the roundtrip

                                                        - Source sRGB in InDesign (document space is sRGB as well)

                                                        - Export as sRGB in Acrobat -

                                                        - Convert to Prophoto in Acrobat

                                                        - convert to sRGB in Photoshop

                                                        is handled correctly, minor deviations because of rounding are tolerated.

                                                         

                                                        For viewing the examples in Acrobat one needs these settings:

                                                        RGB: sRGB

                                                        Output Intent overrides color settings  

                                                         

                                                        For me, Convert Colors in Acrobat works well. In my workflow - which

                                                        may be somewhat old-fashioned because based on CS2 / Acrobat 8, the only

                                                        bottleneck/disadvantage is the fact, that InDesign doesn't handle Grayscales

                                                        correctly.

                                                         

                                                        There are no warnings in Photoshop. Did we ever get warnings, opening

                                                        PDFs? Do we ever get warnings for opening vector graphics? Not me...

                                                         

                                                        Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann 

                                                         

                                                        By the way - another example where all colors are defined  by Lab

                                                        (digital version of Munsell colors):

                                                        http://docs-hoffmann.de/munsell15052009.pdf

                                                        • 25. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                          gator soup Level 4

                                                          There are no warnings in Photoshop. Did we ever get warnings, opening

                                                          PDFs?

                                                           

                                                          here is what i get opening the first two images in my original test pdf (i dragged it into Photoshop CS6 both times) they are the Tagged and Untagged ProPhoto RGB pair and they display proper in Ps using the ProPhoto ICC profile.  I get a warning on each of the nine images doing this except for the Tagged sRGB:

                                                           

                                                          Embedded.png

                                                           

                                                          EmbeddedNO.png

                                                           

                                                          again, seeing is believing

                                                           

                                                          you are a real color scientist, Gernot, and i thank you for enlightening this conversation with your knowledge

                                                           

                                                          i posted a more focused ACROBAT CONVERT COLORS TUTORIAL on my website - this was a real eye opener for me and i truly hope i missed something basic, that someone proves me wrong using my PDF...

                                                          • 26. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                            thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                            If anyone can use an Acrobat "Convert Colors" maneuver to properly convert the Tagged images in my Control PDI_Color_Profile_Test.pdf to a single tagged destination profile (RGB or CMYK) -- I will be grateful if you could provide me with a screenshot of your View> Tools> Print Production> Convert Colors settings.

                                                             

                                                            I had no issue converting all the images in Acrobat 11, on Mac to both CMYK (shown below) and RGB. At least the Preflight shows this after a conversion. Where should I send two PDF's for you to look at? PDF.jpg

                                                            • 27. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                              gator soup Level 4

                                                              g5b at gballard net

                                                               

                                                              posting a screenshot of your Acrobat's View> Tools> Print Production> Convert Colors settings would be most appreciated (because i probably won't understand it any other way)

                                                               

                                                              thank you so much in advance!

                                                              • 28. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                gator soup wrote:

                                                                posting a screenshot of your Acrobat's View> Tools> Print Production> Convert Colors settings would be most appreciated (because i probably won't understand it any other way)

                                                                convertcolors.jpg

                                                                Will zip the two PDF's and send next.

                                                                1 person found this helpful
                                                                • 29. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                                  gator soup Level 4

                                                                  got your pdfs -- thank you!

                                                                  opened in Acrobat 10.1.5 OSX

                                                                   

                                                                  SETTINGS:

                                                                  Dog3.jpg

                                                                   

                                                                  RESULTS:

                                                                   

                                                                  Dog1.jpg

                                                                   

                                                                  Dog2.jpg

                                                                  • 30. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                                    gator soup Level 4

                                                                    Andrew,

                                                                     

                                                                    it looks like we had the same approach to Convert Colors settings?

                                                                     

                                                                    and similar results (using Acrobat Working RGB: ProPhoto)?

                                                                     

                                                                    it is pretty perplexing...

                                                                     

                                                                    the Converted pdfs obviously don't display correctly and i will guess they print just as badly (although i haven't tried printing yet)

                                                                     

                                                                    and i notice InDesign Export PDF has the same interface -- i wonder if it has the same problem -- or if i am still missing something...

                                                                    • 31. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                                      thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                      gator soup wrote:

                                                                      it looks like we had the same approach to Convert Colors settings?

                                                                       

                                                                      and similar results (using Acrobat Working RGB: ProPhoto)?

                                                                       

                                                                      it is pretty perplexing...

                                                                       

                                                                      the Converted pdfs obviously don't display correctly and i will guess they print just as badly (although i haven't tried printing yet)

                                                                       

                                                                      and i notice InDesign Export PDF has the same interface -- i wonder if it has the same problem -- or if i am still missing something...

                                                                      All the data is said to be converted using Preflight so you're saying it's the prevews that are the issue? And yes, you should try printing because either the data is correct and the preview is wrong or vise versa. Preflight is telling me the conversions produced CMYK for all pages (RGB on the other PDF). I didn't even concern myself with the preview. I think the first step is seeing if the data was properly converted and can print. While the preivew would be nice, if the data is in the correct color space, I'd be less concerned about preview in this context (PDF would be used to print from, not really view although it should be correct too).

                                                                      • 32. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                                        gator soup Level 4

                                                                        you're saying it's the prevews that are the issue?

                                                                         

                                                                        yes, exactly, and what Photoshop is telling me when i open the Converted pdf in Ps (screenshot post #14)

                                                                         

                                                                        based on Acrobat's display and Photoshop's confirmation of what i observed -- i don't see how the converted tagged set could print as the original PDI image (but i will give it a try, i am not sure how to print a Source Profile> Print Profile out of Acrobat on my Epson 7880, but i will look a little deep than last several times i looked)

                                                                         

                                                                        now i am super curious about InDesign Export PDF

                                                                        i need to put this aside for a few days and give my neurosis a break...

                                                                         

                                                                        Thank you again!

                                                                        • 33. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                                          thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                          gator soup wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          you're saying it's the prevews that are the issue?

                                                                           

                                                                          yes, exactly, and what Photoshop is telling me when i open the Converted pdf in Ps (screenshot post #14)

                                                                          Well something does appear to be off here as when I convert the entire doc to CMYK, RIP in Photoshop, what I see there doesn't look right which you guys have been over. I thought the issue was some pages were not converting to the output color space but what you're saying is, there's a source profile issue here.

                                                                           

                                                                          The question becomes, what settings do you have for Convert TO PDF and could that affect what is happening here? Or did you build this in InDesign then use IT to build the PDF?

                                                                           

                                                                          Acrobat appears to see the embedded profiles but it doesn't seem to honor them when converting. ProPhoto appears correct and yes, I have that set as my preferred RGB working space in Photoshop and Acrobat (they share the settings).

                                                                          • 34. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                                            gator soup Level 4

                                                                            question becomes, what settings do you have for Convert TO PDF and could that affect what is happening here? Or did you build this in InDesign then use IT to build the PDF?

                                                                             

                                                                            i took my iPhoto Tutorial images (the 10 .jpg images) into Photoshop and save each one as Photoshop PDF as marked (tagged/untagged)

                                                                             

                                                                            then i dragged one into Acrobat and then the rest into its Pages Panel, then Saved/uploaded it

                                                                             

                                                                            Acrobat appears to see the embedded profiles but it doesn't seem to honor them when converting

                                                                             

                                                                            exacto

                                                                            • 35. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                                              thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                              Not much better in InDesign.

                                                                               

                                                                              I am able to extract the actual images embedded into your PDF within Acrobat and open them in Photoshop (Edit with), then place them into a new doc ID CS6.

                                                                              I tested three tagged images (Wacked, sRGB and Adobe RGB (1998)).

                                                                              Each previews differently IN ID CS6 with Wacked looking magenta. They preview as expected in Photoshop (Wacked looks fine). If I go into Assign Profile and pick don't color manage, the Wacked image appears as it does in ID assuming ProPhoto RGB, very magenta.

                                                                               

                                                                              I think this may be a better route than the drag and drop in Photoshop and save as PDF assuming you have InDesign. Or at least build the page in Acrobat just so we can be sure that whatever is happening here isn't the creation of the PDF or ID file.

                                                                               

                                                                              I'm not an ID or Acrobat super user but I've never noticed this preview issue in the past so I'm wondering if it could be how the images were initially built in either ID or Acrobat.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                                                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                I'm seeing an issue on this end saving out the images in Photoshop PDF instead of TIFF. Can you check this?

                                                                                 

                                                                                IF I take the Wacked image I've taken from your PDF and save it back as a Photoshop PDF, it doesn't preview correcly (Magenta) in ID

                                                                                IF I take the wacked image I've taken from your PDF and save it back as a Photoshop TIFF, it does preview correctly in ID.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                                                  thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                  Andrew Rodney wrote:

                                                                                  I am able to extract the actual images embedded into your PDF within Acrobat and open them in Photoshop (Edit with), then place them into a new doc ID CS6.

                                                                                  I tested three tagged images (Wacked, sRGB and Adobe RGB (1998)).

                                                                                  Each previews differently IN ID CS6 with Wacked looking magenta.

                                                                                  Preivew is wrong IF one places a Photoshop PDF saved that way from Photoshop (with embedded profile) in ID yet if one saves this instead as a Photoshop TIFF, they all preview the same as expected.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  In Acrobat 11, there is a command Document Processing>Export All Images. I select TIFF and extract all into a folder. Those images placed in ID preview correctly! I suspect the PDF made from them will be OK as well. There is no option to save off a "Photoshop PDF" which is a weird bird anyway. JPEG, TIFF, PNG. So at this point, stay away from saving anything as a Photoshop PDF and try TIFF.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                                                    gator soup Level 4

                                                                                    .

                                                                                    okay, i will take my original 10 iPhoto .jpg test images i packaged in Photoshop and set them up in InDesign and Export PDF...

                                                                                     

                                                                                    i will crap if the tagged 5 don't display correctly in the pdf, but i don't expect Acrobat to Convert Colors any differently (i will hope i am wrong on this last point)

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Acrobat pdf: Convert to Destination Profile (confused)
                                                                                      gator soup Level 4

                                                                                      my original 10 iPhoto .jpg test images i packaged in Photoshop and set them up in InDesign and Export PDF...


                                                                                      note: my iPhoto set is a different version og the PDI, but otherwised packaged identical to the original Photoshop control set


                                                                                      i did not include the Apple RGB set in this test

                                                                                       

                                                                                       

                                                                                      appears successful (probably the "weird bird" is Photoshop pdf now *highly suspect* format) — thanks to Andrew Rodney www.digitaldog.net

                                                                                       

                                                                                      this is Export PDF from Indesign CS6 — then — Convert Colors in Acrobat to the ProPhoto RGB desitnation profile (just what i expected):

                                                                                       

                                                                                      ConvertedColors9.jpg

                                                                                       

                                                                                      here is the InDesign build (default Working Space: sRGB):

                                                                                       

                                                                                      IDsettings9.jpg

                                                                                       

                                                                                      InD9.jpg

                                                                                       

                                                                                      here are the InDesign Export PDF settings:

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Exp1.jpg

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Exp2.jpg

                                                                                       

                                                                                      exp3.jpg

                                                                                       

                                                                                      here is the Exported PDF in Acrobat:

                                                                                       

                                                                                      ControlPDF9.jpg

                                                                                       

                                                                                      here is the Exported PDF in Acrobat WITH CONVERTED COLORS to ProPhoto RGB destination profile embedded:

                                                                                       

                                                                                      ConvertedColors9.jpg

                                                                                       


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