17 Replies Latest reply on Jan 31, 2013 9:23 PM by Steven L. Gotz

    Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose

    MikeAiken

      I saw a post on here about upside-down video happening to a guy by accident and it gave me an idea. I want to shoot upside-down on purpose and then rotate it to right side up. I do multicamera shoots by myself with preset cameras at different angles on tripods and a handheld for zooming and panning to get details (stage performances). Since I'm not always near them, there's always the danger of somebody bumping into the tripods and messing it up, the audience member who decides to stand up and yack with somebody for five minutes in front of a camera, or God forbid, just running off with one of my cameras. With todays lightweight cameras with super long run times and cheap memory it would be really easy to come up with some ceiling or wall mounts, maybe even magnetic, to hold a camera to a T-bar grid, I-beam, column, etc. upside-down. The camera tripod mounts are all on the bottom so designing a bracket to hold the cam right side up would complicate things a lot more, add weight, and make it hang lower. Of course all of the video would be digital and most likely AVCHD.  My question is would rotating the final footage cause any degredation of the video or is it all done while still digital without being uncompressed first. Anybody know?  Thanks.

      Mike

        • 1. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
          shooternz Level 6

          Sheesh

           

          When you edit or preview...the Source footage will display up side down . What a hassle!

           

          Make a simple L or U Bracket to suspend the camera right way up.

          • 2. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
            Jim_Simon Level 8

            I'd agree.  Do some research, I'm sure you'll find way to hang them properly without adding too much to the drop.

            • 3. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
              BenjaminMarkus Level 4

              Shooternz is right.  An L bracket is the right way to go.

              • 4. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                MikeAiken Level 1

                My question is would rotating the final footage cause any degredation of the video?

                 

                That's what I'd like an answer for.

                 

                I wouldn't mind the time involved in rotating the file to use as a totally new source first before editing. You can't just bend a piece of strap steel to make an L bracket that's really steady, or a U bracket either, which is what you actually need for that matter. I've done all that before for rinky-dink real time monitoring systems and it usually looks like crap, and you usually make them to fit a particular camera. U-channel or aluminum extrusions are what you need, but you can't bend channel without welding at the bends and I certainly can't afford a special extrusion for a couple of mounts. I just want gravity to hold my camera pretty straight, maybe bend the mount a little or put some kind of adjustment on it to get the angle I want, and go. I've thought this thing through so I'm just asking the question; "would rotating the final footage cause any degredation of the video?".

                • 5. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                  BenjaminMarkus Level 4

                  As long as you're not scaling or changing the resolution, a horizontal or vertical flop should not degrade the quality of your image.

                  • 6. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                    shooternz Level 6

                    I wouldn't mind the time involved in rotating the file to use as a totally new source first before editing.

                     

                     

                    In that case...

                     

                    You will get a generational quality loss.   

                     

                    ....as well as (maybe) a bigger file than you started with 

                     

                    ....and so a storage issue.

                     

                    You may lose timecode information on the duplicate file as well.

                     

                    All your clips will need a "rotate" effect applied separately and exported separately...or else you will be working with one large and long source clip.

                     

                    Still think its worth it?

                     

                     

                    Brackets....lots of stuff available..like Flash Unit extenders for SLRs  or Flat screen TV wall mounts....

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                      Instead, I would talk to a rigger/grip, and come up with the mechanicals to allow you to do it correctly.

                       

                      Hunt

                      • 8. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                        MikeAiken Level 1

                        You will get a generational quality loss.

                        Is there a generational quality loss in doing this since it's digital? That's what my question was in the first place. 

                         

                         

                        ....as well as (maybe) a bigger file than you started with

                        ....and so a storage issue.

                         

                        I don't care about file size or storage. I've got 4 TB of raid  which should be plenty for what I need for what I'm doing right now.

                         

                         

                        You may lose timecode information on the duplicate file as well.

                         

                        I don't have timecode anyway since we're talking about cheap cameras to begin with. I just run continuously and sync up with a handclap or slateboard.

                         

                         

                         

                        All your clips will need a "rotate" effect applied separately and exported separately...or else you will be working with one large and long source clip

                         

                        That's right, it'll just be one long clip, or clips,  that I'll apply the effect to and export first. Then I'll use it in a multicam sequence.  Don't really care how long it takes to export.

                         

                         

                        Still think its worth it?

                         

                        Yes, if there's no generational loss. (original question)!

                         

                         

                        Brackets....lots of stuff available..like Flash Unit extenders for SLRs or Flat screen TV wall mounts....

                         

                        Lots of stuff available, but not cheap and no money to buy them with. This is just a hobby with me and I like doing things myself, even if it's the hard way.

                         

                         

                        I've thought this thing through and I don't want to get rude here, but I just want somebody to answer me, "will there definitely be a generational loss with rotating a digital video clip?".

                        • 9. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                          shooternz Level 6

                          but I just want somebody to answer me, "will there definitely be a generational loss with rotating a digital video clip?".

                           

                          Thought I answered that but  I said Yes

                           

                           

                          You export out  so there has to be a generation produced.

                           

                          In your case...I doubt that its going to affect you though ...and it does depend what you export the DI out as  .

                           

                           

                          Why dont you do a little test?

                          1 person found this helpful
                          • 10. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                            Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                            Let's be clear. My friends are answering the question you asked, but not supplying the information I believe you actually might need.

                             

                            If you are rotating the video and immediately exporting, then yes, you have a generational loss.

                             

                            If you are cutting, plus adding effects of any kind to include transitions, color correction, noise reduction, anything at all, then it is all the same generation. You can't avoid the one generation loss. But it is not an extra generation. It is still the same one from the color correction (a common issue with stage productions).

                             

                            I might be inclined to stick all of the upside down video on new sequences, rotate the video, and then use the new sequences as the clips to edit in the main sequence. That way the motion effect won't be on the clip and possibly get in your way.

                            • 11. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                              shooternz Level 6

                              Edit  nested sequences.

                               

                              Nice thinking Steven.

                              • 12. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                                Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                                Thanks.

                                 

                                It took me a long time to warm up to the idea of nesting, and now I can't remember a project that didn't end up with a final sequence that consisted of nested sequences within nested sequences. I use nesting like After Effects people use precomps.

                                • 13. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                                  Level 4

                                  =========

                                  it would be really easy to come up with some ceiling or wall mounts, maybe even magnetic, to hold a camera to a T-bar grid, I-beam, column, etc. upside-down.

                                  ===========

                                   

                                  I would stay away from magnets , because the digital media ( sd cards, chips in camera etc ) are not happy with magnetic stuff. Magnets tend to kill those things... so forget that idea.

                                   

                                  You could use 750 pidgeons taped or screwed to walls, ceiling etc..or c-clamps with 750 stud to I beams, lots of stuff to use..with a gobo head and a PIN in head with thread on end to attach your camera ( can use thread adapters to go from 3/8 to 1/4 or 5/16 etc as needed ).. so anyway, however you attach doesnt matter but no magnets.

                                   

                                  Turning cameras ( dutch angles, or vertical ) is common. With green screens of "people" its very common to turn camera vertical to get the MOST resolution for post work... and when that post work is DONE the result is put back into the horizontal frame for export. Here is sample of what I mean ...

                                   

                                  http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?79720-Shooting-vertically-more-resolution-in-p ost

                                   

                                  turningCamera.jpg

                                   

                                  You can see that the person FITS into frame better with vertical frame ( camera turned sideways )..so for post work you get more resolution to do that work. THEN when done with that you have to put that into a horizontal frame for export and final product....cause thats how we watch movies.

                                   

                                  Cameras dont care how you turn them etc.. so the fact of " generational " loss etc is up to your editing program and how it handles the data and export etc.. has nothing to do with what 'angle' you shoot at etc. Of course, if you go to horizontal from vertical like with sample above, you are "reducing" the image of the person to fit the horizontal frame in the end product...so you don't lose anything except the size of person.. and again, all this boils down to what your editing software can do regarding exports in general.  So, no , you don't lose anything going upside down, cause who cares ? Not the camera.

                                   

                                   

                                  1 person found this helpful
                                  • 14. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                                    MikeAiken Level 1

                                    Thanks for the  great ideas.

                                     

                                    I thought you were pulling my leg when I first started reading your answer 'cause I didn't know what a "750 pigeon" was. Looks like some handy gadgets, and not a joke about screwing that many birds to the wall to "fly" my cameras!

                                     

                                    As for the magnets, I did a search and found a lot of info that says they won't affect flash memory. Maybe if you rapidly swished a magnet back and forth right over a card it might induce a current in some of the internal traces that could fry something but  I'm going to test that for myself just to find out.

                                     

                                    Back in the old days, when chip cameras were first coming out, we had to use them in several MRI suites that we outfitted with video because the magnetic field didn't affect them at all. Vidicon or plumbicon cameras couldn't be used even anywhere near the room. Shielding wasn't so good those days and those liquid helium cooled, near superconducting magnets could wipe out your credit cards from dozens of yards away.

                                     

                                    Sorry I can't mark two answers as correct but I think Steven answered what I needed first.

                                    • 15. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                                      Level 4

                                      ==========

                                      Shielding wasn't so good those days and those liquid helium cooled, near superconducting magnets could wipe out your credit cards from dozens of yards away.

                                      =======

                                      Wow, that stuff is so cool ! About 1986 approx. I got a tour of that giant superconductor magnet at MIT and we had to get all metal stuff off us before going into the room. Guide pointed to a big I beam up above us that had a huge dent in it, from when a magnet thing reversed polarity unexpectedly and the whole unit flew up in the air ( ripped out of its cement floor anchors ! ) and crashed into the I beam !  Holy Smokes !  Wow !

                                       

                                       

                                      • 16. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                                        shooternz Level 6

                                        Sorry I can't mark two answers as correct but I think Steven answered what I needed first.

                                         

                                        Humph....

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        If the question was..

                                         

                                        My question is would rotating the final footage cause any degredation of the video?

                                         

                                        That's what I'd like an answer for.

                                         

                                        Answer 6 and 9 came before 10

                                         

                                         

                                        Sulking.....

                                        • 17. Re: Shoot Upside-down Video on Purpose
                                          Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                                          Hey! I need to get to that second + by my name! I'll take all the points I can get.