25 Replies Latest reply: Feb 3, 2013 12:13 PM by cc2545 RSS

    Soft return affecting running headers

    cc2545 Community Member

      Hello!

       

      I have a Running Header that is using my style from my Chapter Name in my book. In the chapter name on the page, I've used a soft return. Now my Running Header only shows half of the chapter name because I used a soft return in the title on the page.

       

      Is there any work around for this?

       

      Thanks!

        • 1. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
          BobLevine CommunityMVP

          Don't use a soft return. You're breaking the text.

           

          Bob

          • 2. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
            cc2545 Community Member

            Thanks Bob. But then how do I style my Chapter Heading? I need to have it on two lines, yet the Running Header has to pull from that text?

            • 3. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
              P Spier CommunityMVP

              Let's start by finding out why the chapter heading needs to break, and if that is always true, or just on some chapters.

              • 4. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                MW Design CommunityMVP

                Can you not define two variables based on two paragraph styles--one for the first line of chapter title, one for the second line of chapter title and put them in the header? If the second isn't used it won't display.

                 

                Mike

                • 5. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                  cc2545 Community Member

                  I'm breaking the chapter titles for stylistic reasons. It closely matches the way the book title is set up on the book cover. I think it will be true on most chapter starts because now it's a design element.

                  • 6. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                    cc2545 Community Member

                    That's an interesting use Mike, I think I need to test this...

                    • 7. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                      P Spier CommunityMVP

                      Variables don't break across lines, and they pick up exactly the text that is carrying whatever style is selected, so if you use a soft return and specify a paragraph style your header text will ose everything beyond the line break (because the varialbe cannot wrap). You can use two paragraph styles (that differ only in their names, if you like) and a hard return with two paragraph style variables, and a space between, or you can use two character styles applied to the different lines in a single paragraph with the forced break and two character style-based running headers, again with a space between.

                       

                      The character styles, if you use this method, should have no attributes at all other than a unique name so they do not change the formatting. You can apply the characters styles as nested styles in the paragraph style (a good way to do it becasue the disappear completely when you assign a new paragraph style to the variable text itself, or to a TOC listing that uses the paragraph style). The character style method in connection with a forced line break may make your life easier when it's time to build the TOC since the chapter headings will use only one paragraph style. You will, though, need to use find/change on the TOC to replace the forced line breaks with spaces.

                       

                      To use the nested style approach you define the basic formatting of the paragraph style, then in the nested styles section appy character style 1 up to 1 forced line break, none through 1 character, and character style 2 through 1 sentence.

                      • 8. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                        cc2545 Community Member

                        I think I understand the nested character style approach. Except that my second line needs to be indented somewhat and I can't (don't know how to) achieve that without making a hard return.

                         

                        I was successful with the two-paragraph style approach, but again it puts the hard return when I generate the TOC. Maybe this is fine, since even using a soft return would break the lines in the TOC generation anyway. Is that correct?

                        • 9. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                          MW Design CommunityMVP

                          A break is a break. Either way you would need to remove it if desired in the TOC.

                           

                          I suppose one could use a frame which is attached to the text. One line for the header and each frame adjusted so the text would wrap where desired for each chapter. One paragraph style, one line in the TOC.

                           

                          Mike

                          • 10. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                            P Spier CommunityMVP

                            That's correct. The differnce, though is you only need to include one paragaph style if you use the forced break approach, which makes things a bit simple in building the TOC.

                             

                            To get your second line indent, add that amount as a left indent to the pargarph style, then add the same amount as a negative to the first line. This is called a hanging indent.

                            • 11. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                              cc2545 Community Member

                              Ok, I believe that did it. Thank you all for your help.

                              • 12. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                peter at knowhowpro Community Member

                                I think it might work with InDesign CS6's text frame Auto Size feature and a combination of techniques mentioned above. Just a wild stab, didn't try to test.

                                 

                                 

                                HTH

                                 

                                 

                                Regards,

                                 

                                 

                                Peter

                                _______________________

                                Peter Gold

                                KnowHow ProServices

                                 

                                Peter Spier wrote:

                                 

                                That's correct. The differnce, though is you only need to include one paragaph style if you use the forced break approach, which makes things a bit simple in building the TOC.

                                 

                                To get your second line indent, add that amount as a left indent to the pargarph style, then add the same amount as a negative to the first line. This is called a hanging indent.

                                • 13. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                  P Spier CommunityMVP

                                  You lost me, Peter. Can you explain what you are thinking?

                                  • 14. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                    [Jongware] CommunityMVP

                                    cc2545 wrote:

                                    I have a Running Header that is using my style from my Chapter Name in my book. In the chapter name on the page, I've used a soft return. Now my Running Header only shows half of the chapter name because I used a soft return in the title on the page.

                                     

                                    That is contrary to my experiences so far, so I checked with InDesign CS4, CS5, and CS6. This is the behavior I remembered: a soft return gets converted to a regular space. There is no difference between a Paragraph style (left header) and a Character style (right header).

                                     

                                    hdr.png

                                     

                                    However ...

                                    If I change the type from "First on Page" to "Last on Page", soft returns are suddenly discarded!

                                     

                                    hdr2.png

                                     

                                    (This is on my Mac; does Windows show the same erratic behavior re: Soft Returns?)

                                     

                                    No amount of resizing the frame ever makes parts of the header invisible. If the text frame is too small, the header just gets crunched up to fit; it'll never wrap to a second line. Also, since soft returns aren't picked up, you will never get a "second line" that way either.

                                     

                                    So it's not what the OP is experiencing.

                                     

                                    I would like to see a screenshot from a page showing both chapter title and the resulting header, with Invisible Characters on.

                                    • 15. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                      P Spier CommunityMVP

                                      Wow, is that strange....

                                       

                                      Here's a screen shot from Win7 and ID 8.0.1 (CS6):

                                      Running Head variables.png

                                       

                                      As you said, the forced break was converted to a space when using first on page, but it was just dropped entirely when using last.

                                      • 16. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                        cc2545 Community Member

                                        I am on Win7, CS5 and mine does not work the same as Peter's, ie no space inserted for Paragraph style, first on page. The only way I can do it is to insert a space in my Chapter Name before I insert the forced return. Then it shows correctly in the running header.

                                        • 17. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                          P Spier CommunityMVP

                                          Stranger still. I get the smae behavior in CS5 as in CS6. Is your CS5 updated to the 7.0.4 patch?

                                          • 18. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                            cc2545 Community Member

                                            I just checked and it is on 7.0.4. Maybe I have something else affecting the style??

                                            • 19. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                              P Spier CommunityMVP

                                              Can upi show us a screen shot of the heading with non-printing characters showing?

                                              • 20. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                                [Jongware] CommunityMVP

                                                > As you said, the forced break was converted to a space when using first on page, but it was just dropped entirely when using last.

                                                 

                                                Submitted as Bug. It's potentially harmful, as it is an unexplainable and unnecessary random difference when you toggle from First to Last on Page.

                                                 

                                                cc2545, unfortunately this issue seems unrelated to yours. Care to show a screenshot? Perhaps there is something else in your file that messes up things for you.

                                                • 21. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                                  cc2545 Community Member

                                                  Ok, I think I figured out what's happening for me...

                                                   

                                                  In preparing my screenshot test, I was now able to recreate the same effect that Peter has. When I went back to look at my "real" file, I realized I don't have the running header on my Chapter start page, so the first instance it shows up is on the following pages.I guess that's why I have to put the extra space before the forced line break for it to work. In any event, here's my test images (they work like Peter's).

                                                   

                                                  First on Page:

                                                  firstonpage.jpg

                                                   

                                                  Last on Page:

                                                  lastonpage.jpg

                                                  • 22. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                                    P Spier CommunityMVP

                                                    Can you show us the real file? I suspect Jongware wants to figure out why that was different, and I know I do.

                                                    • 23. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                                      cc2545 Community Member

                                                      Unfortunately no, I cannot show that text here. But here's more of my tests on those actual pages...

                                                       

                                                      With a space before the soft return:

                                                      First on page = 2 spaces in Running Header on the chapter start page, and correct Running Headers on succeeding pages.

                                                      Last on page = Correct Running Headers on all pages

                                                       

                                                      With NO space before the soft return:

                                                      First on page = Correct Running Header on chapter start page, incorrect on all succeeding pages (ie no space where the soft return was)

                                                      Last on page = Incorrect Running Header on all pages (ie no space where the soft return was)

                                                       

                                                      Hope this helps.

                                                      • 24. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                                        P Spier CommunityMVP

                                                        I'm confused at this point. In your first post you said everything after the soft return was missing. My suspicion is that you actually had a hard return, not soft, since none of us, at this point is seeing text after the line break disappearing.

                                                         

                                                        The use of the character styles may still turn out to be the best option since it works around the apparent bug with the dropped space, but we haven't really answered what was happening in the original problem.

                                                        • 25. Re: Soft return affecting running headers
                                                          cc2545 Community Member

                                                          Yes, you are probably right, maybe it was a hard return (and I wrote soft). Now that I've made so many tests & changes, I can't remember. Well, I'm glad I helped uncover something else to fix and also found a fix to my immediate problem (because now it's working the way I want it).

                                                           

                                                          Thank you all again for your help.