10 Replies Latest reply on Mar 4, 2013 9:01 AM by rob day

    acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)

    www.Hanbueckers.de

      I use the CS6 suite with Acrobat XI at windows platform.
      When I want to save a file from InDesign as .pdf with output intention eci_iso_coated_v2_300 the result is a .pdf with more than 300% ink coverage.

      I tried to transform the result in Acrobat XI into this standard output intention, but also the result has more than 300 % ink coverage.

      What is the reason of this bug?

      Before with Acrobat X this worked without problems

        • 1. Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)
          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          What preset are you using. The total ink limit is only enforced when there is a color conversion. If you have existing CMYK values that exceed 300 and there's no conversion the numbers won't change.

          • 2. Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)
            Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

            1. I think you are placing cmyk images in InDesign, don't, place RGB and let InDesign do the conversion.

            2, I would not repair the high coverage of ink in Acrobat, I would export it another time with correct settings in InDesign.

            3. I suppose you export as PDF/X3, don't, use X1-a when you need CMYK files. Olaf Drümer, one of the Coauthors of X3 recommends not to use X3 because of possible certainity.

            • 3. Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)
              www.Hanbueckers.de Level 1

              Hi Rob,

               

               

              I was told the new way to work would be to draw files via Bridge direct into the InDesign file

              and I thought automatically the color would not be changed.

               

               

              my colourmanagement setting in bridge for the whole CS6 was  ECI isocoated_V2_300

               

              The Illustrator file was saved without color profile.

               

              In this test file I used 3 kinds of black: background of pirate in cmyk 79,34 / 72,78 / 59,38 / 79,88 = ink coverage 291 %

               

              DÜSSELPIRATEN in “black” (if you would convert this in the file with the cmyk button it would be the same ink-percentage as before

               

              “e.V.” was set to 100 % k

               

              I set the preferences for Acrobat from InDesign CS6 as pdf X4 with profile eci isocoatedV2_300 in three ways:

              no color conversion

               

              convert to profile

               

              convert to profile keeping existing values

               

               

              in all tree files the pirates background has 322 % ink coverage instead of 291 %

               

               

              Why does Acrobat convert “black” in the wrong way?  If I click in Illustrator on the 4c button to convert the “black” into 4c it is 291% ink

              Acrobat should come to the same result with all profiles: iso coated V2 and iso coated V2_300

               

              The same happens also by saving as .pdf X3 or .X1

               

               

              The minimum what I expect is, that Acrobat reduces ink coverage for black to 300 %

               

              I also made test with the new ECI profiles for laminated prints from 2012.

               

              And with newspaper profiles

               

              In this case the ink coverage comes below 300 %, but only when I choose convert to profile.

              And then the 100 % k converts to cmyk, what I don’t want to have with text.

               

               

              Is there no way to reduce ink coverage below a special percentage without changing Text 100% k

               

               

              And is there a bug in Acrobat XI with the ECI IsoCoated_V2_300 Profile? For there is no color reduction below 300 % in all conversion settings.

               

              I can’t test this with Acrobat X or IX, for my computers with this software don’t run with CS6 64 bit.

               

               

              enclosed you find my files

               

               

              Kind regards

               

              Lutz Hanbueckers

               

               

              Hanbueckers Werbung GmbH

               

              Brandsackerstr. 5

               

              40764 Langenfeld

               

              P.O. Box 40 02 01

               

              40242 Düsseldorf

               

              Tel. +49 02173 1 09 44 - 0

               

              Fax +49 02173 1 09 44 - 10

               

              info@hanbueckers.de <mailto:info@hanbueckers.de>

               

              www.hanbueckers.de

               

              Visit our site

               

              Steady attractive offers!!!

               

              HR Düsseldorf B 26 480

               

              owner Manager: Lutz Hanbueckers

               

               

              Von: Rob Day forums_noreply@adobe.com

              Gesendet: Samstag, 2. März 2013 04:26

              An: Hanbueckers Werbung

              Betreff: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)

               

               

               

              Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)

               

              created by Rob Day <http://forums.adobe.com/people/rob+day> in InDesign - View the full discussion <http://forums.adobe.com/message/5115613#5115613

              • 4. Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)
                www.Hanbueckers.de Level 1

                Hi Willi,

                 

                 

                the illustrator file is cmyk without color profile.

                 

                CS6 settings in bridge were ECI iso coated_V2_300

                 

                If you work with special service provider you are asked to use their .pdf settings

                 

                and more and more go to .pdf X4 using Adobe print engine.

                 

                 

                With some printers you are asked to reduce ink below 300 % or newspaper below 240 %.

                 

                 

                I found, that in Acrobat XI the InDesign file does not make the right colour reduction for “black” with the Profile ECI Iso Coated_V2_300

                when clicking the cmyk button in Illustrator for “black” it will be converted to cmyk with 291 % ink coverage.

                 

                Enclosed you find the files in Illustrator and InDesign and the results with the profile.

                 

                Everytime the “black” is 322 % instead of 291 % ink coverage

                 

                 

                In newer profiles as PSO coated or uncoated for matt or glossy lamination from 2012 the ink coverage is below 300 %, the same with newspaper profiles below 240 %

                 

                 

                I think Acrobat XI has a problem with the right colour reduction for this ECI profile iso coated V2_300

                 

                 

                Kind regards

                 

                Lutz Hanbueckers

                 

                 

                Hanbueckers Werbung GmbH

                 

                Brandsackerstr. 5

                 

                40764 Langenfeld

                 

                P.O. Box 40 02 01

                 

                40242 Düsseldorf

                 

                Tel. +49 02173 1 09 44 - 0

                 

                Fax +49 02173 1 09 44 - 10

                 

                info@hanbueckers.de <mailto:info@hanbueckers.de>

                 

                www.hanbueckers.de

                 

                Visit our site

                 

                Steady attractive offers!!!

                 

                HR Düsseldorf B 26 480

                 

                owner Manager: Lutz Hanbueckers

                 

                 

                Von: Willi Adelberger forums_noreply@adobe.com

                Gesendet: Samstag, 2. März 2013 12:59

                An: Hanbueckers Werbung

                Betreff: - Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)

                 

                 

                 

                Adobe Community <http://forums.adobe.com/index.jspa>

                 

                Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)

                 

                created by Willi Adelberger <http://forums.adobe.com/people/Willi+Adelberger> in InDesign - View the full discussion <http://forums.adobe.com/message/5116051#5116051

                • 5. Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)
                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Some things to check.

                   

                  What's the document mode of your AI file? If you want objects to be 0|0|0|100 black it has to be CMYK, but in that case you could specify a CMYK mix that exceeds 300%  because total ink limits are only enforced on a color conversion RGB>CMYK or CMYK>CMYK :

                   

                  Adobe Illustrator CS6ScreenSnapz001.png

                   

                  Check your InDesign's CMYK profile assignment via Edit>Assign Profiles, Syncing via bridge doesn't necessarily work for existing documents:

                   

                  Screen shot 2013-03-02 at 6.18.50 PM.png

                   

                  When you export make sure the destination is Document CMYK

                   

                   

                   

                  InDesignScreenSnapz002.png

                   

                  When you check the numbers in Acrobat make sure the Simulation Profile is the output intent or your ISO Coated V2 profile:

                   

                  AcrobatScreenSnapz001.png

                  • 6. Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)
                    www.Hanbueckers.de Level 1

                    Hi Rob,

                     

                     

                    I think, I have localized the problem now.

                     

                    It is in Illustrator.

                     

                    When I create a cmyk image in Illustrator and attach no colour profile or any other cmyk colour profile,

                     

                    I can set ink coverage > 300 %  

                     

                     

                    when placing this in InDesign, I cannot select under “object “couloursettings for picture” under profile: “use document standard” (as I can do with photoshop pictures)

                     

                    to provide that document rendering intention will be selected for this element instead of standard “keep values”.

                     

                     

                    If I could change the coloursettings for placed Illustrator objects in InDesign, the problem would be solved.

                     

                    But this field is greyd out under “object” for placed illustrator elements.

                     

                     

                    I think it is also a little bug, that I can save an illustrator image as .ai or .pdf with a normed output intention, e.g. coatedV2_300 or US newspaper…

                     

                    although the ink coverage is higher than allowed in the norm.

                     

                     

                    try it:

                     

                    save a 90/90/90/90cmyk with the profile US newspaper as .ai file- no warning it will be saved!

                     

                    save it as .df X3 or X4 with profile US newspaper without color conversion - it will be saved without warning

                     

                    Place the .ai file in InDesign document with colour profile ECI IsoCoated V2_300 - it is not possible to select  “object” “coloursettings for picture” to use document standard for this image.

                     

                     

                    This is a pity, for it makes it dangerous just to drag an drop Illustrator images Into InDesign if they have no color profile, - what is normal.

                     

                    And also if there is a profile. It might be wrong, for Illustrator gives no warning if ink coverage exceeds the allowed maximum of a selected colorprofile.

                     

                     

                    Kind regards

                     

                    Lutz Hanbueckers

                     

                     

                    Hanbueckers Werbung GmbH

                     

                    Brandsackerstr. 5

                     

                    40764 Langenfeld

                     

                    P.O. Box 40 02 01

                     

                    40242 Düsseldorf

                     

                    Tel. +49 02173 1 09 44 - 0

                     

                    Fax +49 02173 1 09 44 - 10

                     

                    info@hanbueckers.de <mailto:info@hanbueckers.de>

                     

                    www.hanbueckers.de

                     

                    Visit our site

                     

                    Steady attractive offers!!!

                     

                    HR Düsseldorf B 26 480

                     

                    owner Manager: Lutz Hanbueckers

                     

                     

                    Von: Rob Day forums_noreply@adobe.com

                    Gesendet: Sonntag, 3. März 2013 00:32

                    An: Hanbueckers Werbung

                    Betreff: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)

                     

                     

                     

                    Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)

                     

                    created by Rob Day <http://forums.adobe.com/people/rob+day> in InDesign - View the full discussion <http://forums.adobe.com/message/5117047#5117047

                    • 7. Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      But this field is greyd out under “object” for placed illustrator elements.

                       

                      Image Color Settings is grayed out for .ai, .pdf, or .indd files because they can have objects with different profiles and color spaces, while an image can have only one profile assigned so that assignment can easily be changed inside of ID.

                       

                      If the AI file has been saved with its profiles (i.e., PDF/X-4) they are included and the placed file will respond accordingly, you just can't see the profiles inside of InDesign.

                       

                      You can see this working if you save your 90/90/90/90 example two ways, with and without profiles, and place them in your document that's assigned IsoCoated V2_300. Open Separation Preview and check the values. The version with the saved US Newspaper profile will have new total ink values under 300 because its profile conflicts with IsoCoated V2_300—there's a CMYK to CMYK conversion from US Newsprint to IsoCoated V2_300. The version without an embedded profile doesn't change because there's no profile conflict and no color conversion.

                       

                      ID has to assume some source profile so if one doesn't exist the document's profile gets assigned.

                       

                      try it:

                      save a 90/90/90/90cmyk with the profile US newspaper as .ai file- no warning it will be saved!

                       

                      Photoshop, InDesign and Illustrator all work this way.

                       

                      There's nothing stopping you from filling a CMYK Photoshop file with 100|100|100|100 and saving. Unless there is a color conversion later the values remain unchanged—when you build a CMYK color in a CMYK document there's no color conversion.

                       

                      Assign a Photoshop CMYK file IsoCoated V2_300, fill it with 100|100|100|100, convert its mode to Lab then back to CMYK, and you'll get new values under the 300 total ink limit because of the conversion.

                      • 8. Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)
                        www.Hanbueckers.de Level 1

                        Thank you Rob,

                         

                         

                        your explanations are well understandable.

                         

                        What remains is the problem, that Illustrator can embed profiles, that are not true.

                         

                        i.g. cmyk 90/90/90/90 in an US newspaper-profile

                        if tha file comes with this profile to InDesign, it will be not converted, when the InDesign file has the same profile, for only the name of the profile is checked and not ink coverage.

                         

                         

                        When I check the profile of the exported .pdf in Acrobat XI preflight I receive “no problems”. Also here should come an alert,

                         

                        for the file does not meet the X-standard, when the ink coverage is higher than in the profile norm.

                         

                         

                        I’ll create an own pdf preflight setting for my Acrobat to avoid further problems with ink coverage.

                         

                         

                        Thank you for your extensive help to explain the way how InDesign works with the embedded profiles. J

                         

                         

                        Kind regards

                         

                        Lutz Hanbueckers

                         

                         

                        Von: Rob Day forums_noreply@adobe.com

                        Gesendet: Montag, 4. März 2013 15:08

                        An: Hanbueckers Werbung

                        Betreff: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)

                         

                         

                         

                        Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)

                         

                        created by Rob Day <http://forums.adobe.com/people/rob+day> in InDesign - View the full discussion <http://forums.adobe.com/message/5119767#5119767

                        • 9. Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)
                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Another place you can see the conversion enforcement working is in the Color Pickers. Here I'm picking HSB black and the CMYK total ink values change with different document profiles, first US Newspaper then IsoCoated V2_300:

                           

                          Screen shot 2013-03-04 at 9.37.33 AM.png

                           

                          Screen shot 2013-03-04 at 9.47.01 AM.png

                          • 10. Re: acrobat/Indesign does not export correct into the selected output intention (eci_iso_coated_v2_300)
                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            What remains is the problem, that Illustrator can embed profiles, that are not true.

                             

                            The embedded profile is whatever profile is assigned to the document. When you assign a CMYK profile there's no consideration of the CMYK values all that matters is that the mode is CMYK.

                             

                            Besides total ink a CMYK profile controls the black ink limit, black generation, and GCR. I could  build a color with way more black than isoCoated V2_300's black generation would allow. The profile would never produce a color like 0|0|30|50 on a conversion—the same color would be something like  33|24|63|24.

                             

                            The best you can do is turn on the Ink Limit preview in ID or Acrobat so you can see any violations.