19 Replies Latest reply on Sep 25, 2015 3:09 PM by rob day

    Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???

    viveredesign Level 1

      Hello,

       

      For the color geeks, quite by accident, I noticed a seemingly bizarre behavior:

       

      Open a new In Design document and assign the standard sRGB color profile, add a single color square with a filled color (I chose #66FF00 or 102,255,0) and select the square with the fill color's numbers visible in the color palette.

       

      Then, select Edit|Convert to Profile... In the dialog box: RGB Profile: choose sRGB (the same as the source RGB profile), for the intent, choose Absolute Colorimetric. (This means don't alter colors that are within gamut and clip those that are out of gamut, black-point compensation makes no difference either way in this scenario). Select and unselect preview and you'll see the color numbers (and the appearance) change!!! If you do this several times, your green square will keep drifting further and further away from the original coordinate and appearance!

       

      I thought absolute colorimetric conversions were supposed to preserve in-gamut colors as-is!

       

      I tried this with a few basic colors and found that the reds, blacks, whites, and grays are left unchanged. The blues and greens are shifted.

       

      Can anyone explain why colors that are converted to the same color profile using an absolute colorimetric conversion are shifted at all?

       

      thanks!

       

      PS. Incidentally, upon further testing, I see no color shifting when converting from Adobe RGB -> Adobe RGB and none when converting from ProPhotoRGB -> ProPhotoRGB (our default profile). So as far as I can tell, shifting only occurs when converting from sRGB -> sRGB. I know it's the smallest standard color profile, so perhaps that's a factor?

        • 1. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          I can't replicate your problem here. How much are the numbers changing and why would you want to convert to the same profile?

          • 2. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
            viveredesign Level 1

            Hi Rob. Thanks for spending time replicating it. I double checked again today and found the same thing (pictured below--the images differ by the 'preview' box being checked). I'm running InDesign CS6 (8.0.1) on a Windows 7 x64 machine.

             

            Of course, there is no reason to convert from a color profile to the same profile, but it makes me suspicious of the conversion algorithm employed by InDesign. For example, if you have a bunch of links of varying color profiles and you choose to convert to a color managed profile upon exporting to a PDF, does InDesign shift colors/numbers for link containing the same profile that you're exporting to?

             

            For example, if you're producing a catalog or program, and a client sends an advertisement image containing their logo (with specific colors) in the sRGB color profile and you link it in to an InDesign file and then create a PDF in the sRGB color space, will those logo colors shift?

             

            I know my experiment doesn't show much color shift, and I wouldn't worry about it, but it really shouldn't shift at all. I'm more curious than concerned.

             

            before.PNG

            after.PNG

            • 3. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              I can replicate your capture if the document RGB assignment and the Color Setting's Working RGB are different (which shouldn't matter, so it looks like a bug). If they do match the result is as expected no value change no matter what the conversion settings are.

               

              Screen shot 2013-02-20 at 8.40.39 PM.png

              Screen shot 2013-02-20 at 8.40.45 PM.png

               

              It looks like the problem is limited to ID's Convert to Profile... I don't see it happening in a PDF export and Photoshop's convert to profile always works as expected when the profiles are the same.

              • 4. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                viveredesign Level 1

                Hi Rob,

                 

                Thanks for spending your time looking in to this. I'll try to communicate to Adobe about this bug so they can fix it.

                • 5. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                  JeffePortland

                  I'm seeing this same issue with photos. When using sRGB 2.1 Photoshop files and specifying No Color Conversion or Convert to sRGB 2.1 I get two different results. You can see this same behavior within Photoshop itself  by using Edit- Convert to Profile. Check and uncheck preview and you will see a drastic change. Oddly enough it seems like the two programs do the reverse of each other with results. Photoshop converts to a more saturated look after conversion, while InDesign produces a more saturated look with No Color Conversion and a duller one with Convert to sRGB. Since I work with artists who want RGB this is turning into a "Big Bag of Hurt".

                  • 6. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    You can see this same behavior within Photoshop itself  by using Edit- Convert to Profile. Check and uncheck preview and you will see a drastic change.

                    I can see the preview problem in Photoshop's Convert to Profile when the source and destination are the same, but the appearance change indicated by the preview is not applied when I click OK. The appearance reverts to the original and the RGB values remain unchanged, which is what you would expect.

                     

                    I no longer see the problem from the original post using ID2014 (the post is 2 years old so we were using CS6). InDesign's Edit>Convert to Profile only affects the values of InDesign colors. You can't convert a placed image via InDesign's Convert to Profile.

                    • 7. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                      JeffePortland Level 1

                      I use a PDF workflow and am referring to InDesign - File- Adobe PDF Presets- Output - Color Conversion- No Color Conversion OR - Color Conversion- Convert to Destination- sRGB. I Do see the color changes and it mimics the Preview of Photoshop conversion. I don't actually use the Photoshop conversion as there is no need to, it was an example of the differences I'm seeing within different outputs of InDesign. If you have an InDesign file with links of different profiles, converting the entire document changes the color of images of the same profile being output to. It actually doesn't matter if there is a single sRGB file and  sRGB is chosen as the Destination profile, but the example of multiple link profiles is a real world example of when you might want to use this method. It affects photos not just InDesign colors.

                      • 8. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        I use a PDF workflow and am referring to InDesign - File- Adobe PDF Presets- Output - Color Conversion- No Color Conversion OR - Color Conversion- Convert to Destination- sRGB.

                        I'm not seeing it in ID2014, maybe you can provide an example? How are you determining the RGB values in the exported PDF? AcrobatPro? Is Acrobat's Simulation Profile set to sRGB? Which version of Acrobat are you using?

                         

                        Here I have an ID file with the RGB assignment set to sRGB. The top rectangle is filled with an InDesign RGB color 50|255|50, the bottom rectangle is an sRGB PSD file filled with the same color. When I export to DocumentRGB-sRGB, the RGB values and preview are unchanged over in AcrobatProDC.

                         

                        Screen Shot 2015-09-25 at 1.36.12 PM.png

                        Object Inspector gives the actual fill values in the PDF (you have to multiply them by 255 to get the gray value scale InDesign uses). I'm setting the Simulation Profile to sRGB so that the appearance is the same between Acrobat and ID (on the left)

                         

                        Screen Shot 2015-09-25 at 1.45.12 PM.png

                        • 9. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Also, if you are using Acrobat X or XI they have an Output Preview bug where the soft proof created by the Simulation profile is wrong. AcrobatProDC's Output Preview's softproof is correct.

                          • 10. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                            JeffePortland Level 1

                            Here is a capture of the two files with the same sRGB profile output from InDesign. The top is Convert to Destination while the bottom is No Color Conversion. This is not just a preview issue as the prints off my digital press come out the same way.Color Differences sRGB.jpg

                            • 11. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                              JeffePortland Level 1

                              To be clear- this is actually one file with the sRGB profile output two different ways to create two PDFs.

                              • 12. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                On Export are you including profiles in both cases? Looks like one might be sRGB and the other DeviceRGB.

                                 

                                To be sure you have to open Output Preview, choose Object Inspector next to Preview, and click on the image. That will tell you if the images are both tagged with sRGB:

                                 

                                Screen Shot 2015-09-25 at 4.03.47 PM.png

                                • 13. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                                  JeffePortland Level 1

                                  Well yuck. The file is in fact going to Device RGB. I was under the impression that using "No Color Conversion" along with "Include Tagged Source Profiles" would honor the link profile. What settings would I use to honor the profile of links?

                                  I appreciate your help with this as you obviously are very knowledgeable and thorough.

                                  • 14. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    The PDF/X-4 preset should work.

                                     

                                    I don't think X4 will allow DeviceRGB. If the image has no embedded profile or your Color Settings' RGB policy ignores embedded profiles, the document's RGB profile will be assigned to the image on a PDF/X-4 export.

                                    • 15. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                                      JeffePortland Level 1

                                      Sure enough that honored the profile. I do find it odd that No Color Conversion and Include Tagged Source Profiles doesn't actually give results that one would expect.

                                       

                                      Thanks for the help!

                                      • 16. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        I do find it odd that No Color Conversion and Include Tagged Source Profiles doesn't actually give results that one would expect.

                                         

                                        Include All Profiles instead of Include Tagged Source Profiles should also work.

                                         

                                        Are you sure the placed image was saved with an embedded profile and it was honored by the Color Settings's RGB CM Policy (it would have to be Preserve Embedded Profiles when the doc was created)?

                                        • 17. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                                          JeffePortland Level 1

                                          In short yes. Preserve Embeded Profiles on in InDesign Prefs. I double checked the file within Photoshop and can also see the sRGB profile within Link Info. I output to No Color Conversion and Include Tagged Source Profiles. This used to be my workflow but I've simply saved a new default with X4 and adjusted resolution, bleeds etc. Thanks for your help as I did not even expect a resolution nearly so quickly.

                                          • 18. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                                            JeffePortland Level 1

                                            Well- instead of using "Include Tagged Source Profiles", the option below it is "Include All RGB and Tagged Source CMYK Profiles" which works as expected. So maybe "Include Tagged Source Profiles" does not include RGB. In any case I can output with confidence now!

                                            • 19. Re: Converting colors to SAME PROFILE alters color coordinates???
                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              This came up awhile back with CMYK files.

                                               

                                              With Include Tagged Source Profiles, you'll only get tagged color if the object's embedded profile conflicts with the InDesign document's profile. So it would be away to export everything as DeviceRGB or DeviceCMYK and only include a profile when there's a conflict. Obviously you would never want that in an RGB workflow.