9 Replies Latest reply on Mar 6, 2013 9:50 AM by Louis Dery

    Characterization data for CMYK breakdowns of Pantone spot colours

    Giordano Galli

      Hello

       

      I wonder whether Pantone provides characterization data or ICC profiles of the latest cmyk breakdowns that were part of spot colour libraries before what I understand to be a switch to the Lab breakdowns found in CS6.

      I'm also interested in documentation on superseded breakdown sets.

       

      Can anybody point me to a source of information on this matter?

      Thank you very much.

       

      Giordano

        • 1. Re: Characterization data for CMYK breakdowns of Pantone spot colours
          Louis Dery Level 1

          Hello Giordano,

           

          Good question! I already asked to Pantone a few month ago… they told me that the ICC profile used to define the CMYK values for Pantone Color Bridge IS NOT AVAILABLE. They said that they also made some CMYK tuning for some Pantone color.

          They also said that the CMYK values are based on ISO printing standards.

           

          I’ve made several test with different Pantone+ Color Bridge CMYK values compared to Pantone + Solid… I’ve tried all ISO ICC profile that comes with Adobe Creative Suite (Fogra 27, Fogra 39, Gracol, etc.) and no one of those ICC profile can simulate accurateley any Of the CMYK values define by Pantone+ Color Bridge!

           

          One thing I can say, it is that those CMYK values are based on European TVI and NOT for North American standard TVI !!!

           

          Hope this will put some light on your color ! ;-)

           

          Louis

          • 2. Re: Characterization data for CMYK breakdowns of Pantone spot colours
            Giordano Galli Level 1

            Hello Louis

             

             

            Thank you very much for your reply.

             

             

            Do you think that from a user's point of view it would be correct to consider those cmyk breakdowns colorimetrically vague?

            I'm also curious about how you came to your conclusions about the underlying TVI.

             

             

            Thank you again.

             

             

             

             

            Giordano

            • 3. Re: Characterization data for CMYK breakdowns of Pantone spot colours
              Louis Dery Level 1

              Hello Giordano,

               

              Personnally, I wouldn’t used the CMYK breakdown of Pantone Plus Color Bridge because there is NO references (ICC profile) provided by Pantone.

              Jyst try to compare Pantone Plus Coated 425 and Pantone Plus Coated 425 Color Bridge. 425 is a mid gray. They are totally different. The Color Bridge CMYK is way too dark.

               

              Louis

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Characterization data for CMYK breakdowns of Pantone spot colours
                Giordano Galli Level 1

                Louis Dery wrote:

                 

                Jyst try to compare Pantone Plus Coated 425 and Pantone Plus Coated 425 Color Bridge. 425 is a mid gray. They are totally different. The Color Bridge CMYK is way too dark.

                 

                Which Bridge library are you referring to, the "EC" or the "PC"?

                 

                Giordano

                • 5. Re: Characterization data for CMYK breakdowns of Pantone spot colours
                  Louis Dery Level 1

                  Pantone Plus Color Bridge Coated "CP"

                   

                   

                  Louis

                  • 6. Re: Characterization data for CMYK breakdowns of Pantone spot colours
                    Giordano Galli Level 1

                    Hello Louis

                     

                    First of all, thank you very much for pointing out the case of Pantone 425C, it's quite interesting and I'm studying it in Photoshop CS4.

                     

                    When I try the "PC" breakdown [38c 28m 21y 63k] with both sheetfed and web U.S. profiles the results do in fact have low L values.

                    Pantone 425C: 38 -1 -2

                    U.S. Sheetfed Coated v2: 30 0 -3

                    U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2: 35 -1 -5

                     

                    On the other hand when I try the "EC" breakdown [52c 29m 30y 78k] this is what I get.

                    Euroscale Coated v2: 19 -2 -5

                    Euroscale Uncoated v2: 21 -4 -3

                    Coated FOGRA 39: 24 -4 -3

                     

                    All of these are not only dark, but hugely so. Even more surprising, the "PC" breakdown gives pretty decent results when coupled to these euro profiles, [34 −2 −6], [34 0 −4] and [38 0 −4] respectively: bluish but nothing more.

                     

                    Am I messing up my tests? Are your Bridge breakdowns for this spot colour the same?

                     

                     

                    Giordano

                    • 7. Re: Characterization data for CMYK breakdowns of Pantone spot colours
                      Louis Dery Level 1

                      Hello Giordano,

                       

                      First of all, when you want to get the right LAB value form profile, set your Default rendering intent to Absolute in your color settings.

                       

                      Then, here is the numbers I have for all CMYK breakdown of Pantone Bridge Coated CP, PC, and EC for Pantone 425:

                       

                      Pantone Plus Coated 425: L37 a-1 b-2

                       

                      Pantone Plus Color Bridge Coated CP: C48 M29 Y26 K76

                      U.S. Web Coated SWOP v2: L26 a-3 b-2

                      U.S. Sheetfed Coated: L23 a-3 b-2

                      Coated Fogra 39: L28 a-2 b-4

                      Euroscale Coated v2: L26 a0 b-5

                       

                      Pantone Color Bridge Coated PC: C38 M28 Y21 K63

                      U.S. Web Coated SWOP v2: L33 a-1 b-2

                      U.S. Sheetfed Coated: L31 a-1 b-2

                      Coated Fogra 39: L38 a0 b-4

                      Euroscale Coated v2: L35 a2 b-6

                       

                      Pantone Color Bridge Coated EC: C52 M29 Y30 K78

                      U.S. Web Coated SWOP v2: L24 a-4 b-2

                      U.S. Sheetfed Coated: L21 a-3 b-2

                      Coated Fogra 39: L26 a-3 b-3

                      Euroscale Coated v2: L24 a-1 b-5

                       

                      Finally, what it should be for each CMYK profile (value from Pantone Color Manager v2. Note that PCM uses Absolute Clorimetric intent):

                      U.S. Web Coated SWOP v2: C66 M55 Y48 K23

                      U.S. Sheetfed Coated: C67 M53 Y48 K19

                      Coated Fogra 39: C62 M49 Y48 K40

                      Euroscale Coated v2: C69 M52 Y52 K31

                       

                      Be carefull when comparing CMYK values… they are not all made with the same black generation!

                       

                      NOW, compare and see!

                       

                      Louis

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                      • 8. Re: Characterization data for CMYK breakdowns of Pantone spot colours
                        Giordano Galli Level 1

                        Hello Louis

                         

                        Thank you very much for the time you put into this and for correcting my colour settings.

                        Now I think I'm on the right track. I'm only confused about your using the "CP" library that I thought to only comprise GOE colours. If so, how are you relating it to Pantone 425C?

                         

                        Here come my results, as a recap. They're pretty much identical to yours.

                         

                        Colour ProfileEC breakdown
                        [52 29 30 78]
                        PC breakdown
                        [38 28 21 63]
                        Euroscale Coated v2[24 -1 -5][35 2 -6]
                        Coated FOGRA39[26 -3 -3][38 0 -4]
                        U.S. Sheetfed Coated v2[21 -4 -1][31 -1 -2]
                        U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2[24 -4 -2][33 -1 -2]

                         

                        They seem to me to confirm that the "PC" breakdown performs poorly and the "EC" version is even worse by far. And, again, correct me if I'm wrong but I see the "PC" as the winner for euro colour profiles. I think I now understand why you wouldn't use these breakdowns.

                         

                         

                        Giordano

                        • 9. Re: Characterization data for CMYK breakdowns of Pantone spot colours
                          Louis Dery Level 1

                          Hello Giordano,

                           

                          I’m glad that you understand my point!

                          About the "CP" library, this is the new "Pantone Plus Color Bridge Coated" suffix name Pantone is using.

                          Now, ther is no more North America (PC) and European (EC) Color Bridge libraries! only one for both worlds!

                           

                          So, if your printer (offset, etc.) is not inline with TVI from ISO (european) standard, they will fight a lot on press with these "too generic" CMYK breakdown.

                           

                          Hope this help!

                           

                          Louis