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    Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6

    MarketingDen Level 1

      Here is a logo, pasted as a smart object from Illustrator into Photoshop CS5.1 :

       

      Screen Shot 2013-03-13 at 2.25.35 PM.png

      Here is the same logo pasted as a smart object from Illustrator to Photoshop CS6:

       

      Screen Shot 2013-03-13 at 2.24.51 PM.png

      Note the gaps in the orange gradient at the top of the graphic, and the transparent areas in the border of the shield. This discrepancy appears (to me) to be a result of using a "sharper" antialiasing mode in CS6 which is leaving 1 pixel wide gaps between objects that are actually completely aligned to the same points in Illustrator. Scaling the object will result in the gaps showing up in different areas of the graphic. This is incorrect behavior on the part of Photoshop CS6. Will there be a fix forthcoming? I'll have to keep working in Photoshop CS5.1 for the time being until issues like this are resolved.

        • 1. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
          Noel Carboni Level 8

          There is a preference setting in the General section, [  ] Snap Vector tools and Transforms to Pixel Grid.  I don't know whether that would affect what you're doing, as I don't use AI but but have you tried changing it?

           

          I have to admit, the second version looks a little better because it seems sharper (at 25% zoom).

           

          -Noel

          • 2. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
            MarketingDen Level 1

            Tried that just now... changed the preference setting and refreshed the smart object - no effect.

             

            I agree that the sharper rendering "looks" better (minus the gaps) but the existance of this bug makes Photoshop unreliable. Too easy to be concentrating on the overall job and miss some small defect which affects the customer's brand - in this case, directly in the logo.

             

            If I turn off antialiasing in the transform tool these gaps go away, at the expense of result looking like something out of a Super Mario game. I suppose a work-around would be to create a raster version of the artwork without antialiasing at several times the desired size and then use that as a smart layer, scaled into place, but that really seems like a lot of busy work that was not necessary in CS5.1.

             

            Edit: Ouch... just tried that workaround. The scaling method used when I shrunk the logo to final size resulted in some VERY heavy handed over-sharpening:

             

            Screen Shot 2013-03-13 at 4.07.30 PM.png

            • 3. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
              conroy Level 5

              I rasterize in Illustrator and export PNG for placing in Photoshop to overcome the completely unreliable rasterizing of imported vector artwork by Photoshop.

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                MarketingDen Level 1

                Yeah, that works too (exporting as PNG from Illustrator).

                 

                The Image Interpolation setting under the General Preferences is set to "Bicubic Automatic" which is where the obnoxious over-sharpening is coming from. Setting it to simply "Bicubic" results in a more reasonable result (for raster smart objects). This setting unfortunately has no effect on the rendering of vector smart objects.

                • 5. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                  conroy Level 5

                  MarketingDen wrote:

                   

                  Edit: Ouch... just tried that workaround. The scaling method used when I shrunk the logo to final size resulted in some VERY heavy handed over-sharpening:

                   

                   

                  You probably scaled down with ugly Bicubic Sharper interpolation, as a result of the Ps CS6 default of "Bicubic Automatic". Transforms of Smart Objects use the interpolation method set in Preferences > General. Set that to plain "Bicubic" to match CS5. And when transforming raster layers, the Options bar has an independent interpolation control in CS6, which also defaults to Bicubic Automatic, so set that to Bicubic to get the good ol' CS5 interpolation.

                  • 6. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                    conroy Level 5

                    Rasters inside Vector Smart Objects are subject to some other interpolation which can look horrendous. Generally avoid resizing VSOs containing rasters! Yet another reason to rasterize in Illustrator, export a raster file (e.g. PNG) then place that file in Photoshop.

                    • 7. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                      MarketingDen Level 1

                      Adobe seems to ruin something that was working perfectly well in the previous version every time they do an update.

                      • 8. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                        conroy Level 5

                        MarketingDen wrote:

                         

                        Adobe seems to ruin something that was working perfectly well in the previous version every time they do an update.

                         

                        And insist that Ps CS6 is correct and any software that differs is simply wrong!

                         

                        I kid you not.

                        • 9. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                          MarketingDen Level 1

                          Including their own software (Illustrator and InDesign and Acrobat), and every RIP that this logo has been printed through in the last few years...

                          • 11. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                            MarketingDen Level 1

                            I'd really like an answer from someone at Adobe about this issue. For the record, this bug also affects elements that have been dragged and dropped from InDesign - a workflow that really doesn't have the .PNG file workaround. This is unacceptable.

                            • 12. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                              Noel Carboni Level 8

                              MarketingDen wrote:

                               

                              Edit: Ouch... just tried that workaround. The scaling method used when I shrunk the logo to final size resulted in some VERY heavy handed over-sharpening:

                               

                              On re-reading this thread, one thing came to mind that I didn't think of before, as relates to the above observation:  The default resampling is called "Bicubic Automatic", and it can cause some real nasty oversharpening during resizes.  Try changing the preference to "Bicubic" (which is the old, traditional resampling).  Perhaps it won't end up looking so overdone on downsizing.

                               

                              -Noel

                              • 13. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                conroy Level 5

                                Noel, that was covered in replies #5 and #6.

                                • 14. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                  Noel Carboni Level 8

                                  So it was.  Perhaps I need to re-read more carefully. 

                                   

                                  -Noel

                                  • 15. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                    conroy Level 5

                                    The positive thing about this thread is that nobody from Adobe has disputed the existence of a problem this time, so maybe that can be read as them accepting that a problem needs to be fixed.

                                    • 16. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                      JJMack Most Valuable Participant

                                      One thing to keep in mind is a smart object layer acts like its a single raster layer created  from the composit of the layers of the embedded smart object. Smart object layer therefore behave like a raster layer.  However this raster layer can updated by updating the embedded smart object. You do this by double clicking on the layers smart object icon in the layers palette.  When to do that the embedded object will be opened in ACR or Photoshop and you can use ACR or Photoshop tools on the object.  If the object opens in Photoshop and it contains vector layers like shape layers and text layers when you use tools like image size and transform these layers will be updated using vector graphics. When you click OK in ACR or save in Photoshop the smart object layers embedded smart object will be updated to reflect the changes made using ACR or Photoshop its the raster layer pixels will be regenerated using the updated embedded smart object.

                                      • 17. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                        conroy Level 5

                                        JJ, the essay on Smart Objects is completely unnecesssary. You've entierely missed the point of this thread.

                                        • 18. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                          charles badland Level 4

                                          The default resampling is called "Bicubic Automatic", and it can cause some real nasty oversharpening during resizes.  Try changing the preference to "Bicubic" (which is the old, traditional resampling).

                                           

                                          Another thing to keep in mind with resampling and SOs, is that a Smart Object does not "remember" what interpolation algorithm was used if it gets edited after scaling. So if you downsample a Smart Object using Bicubic, then change your Preferences to Bicubic Automatic, then at some later point decide to Edit Contents of the SO, it will apply the current resample algorithm (Bicubic Sharper, in this case), even if there was no change to its scale in the edit.

                                          • 19. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                            MarketingDen Level 1

                                            I think the discussion got sidetracked here on talking about anti-aliasing of "raster" smart objects. THIS IS NOT WHAT THIS COMPLAINT IS ABOUT.

                                             

                                            The original complaint, which still stands, is that vector artwork is now rendering with 1 pixel wide gaps between elements that are, in Illustrator, exactly aligned. If you go back and look at my original two examples, the logo in the second screen shot has gaps in the orange banner in the logo, and is missing elements in the border around the shield. These are gaps or holes in the logo caused by a change in the way vector objects are rendered in Photoshop CS6. This can NOT be corrected by changing the antialiasing style - there is no choice of rendering method used. You get the new one, that is broken.

                                             

                                            In this particular example, I opened up an old CS5.5 Photoshop file in CS6, and edited it. During that process I resized the logo a little bit, and didn't notice the gaps and lines that now appeared in the logo. I ended up sending out artwork that was affected by this bug. Luckily I did finally notice and in the nick of time was able to fix it by using the .PNG export work-around.

                                             

                                            I was going to post a very simple example where I had a grid of filled boxes in Illustrator that were exactly adjacent to each other, which should result in a single larger solid box in Photoshop, but instead results in 1 pixel wide gaps between the elements. You can do this experiment for yourself. The reason I have not posted such an example is that, to my dismay, this example also now exhibits the same thin gaps in Adobe Illustrator CS6. So the rendering of vector images is broken there, as well.

                                             

                                            Dragging and dropping elements out of InDesign into Photoshop is also a workflow that I have developed when creating web pages from previously produced print designs. This bug also affects this workflow. Every seperate vector shape in a logo or other compound artwork is now being rendered in such a way that small gaps might appear between elements that should be touching. I imagine that they are being pixel aligned or otherwise sharply antiased so that two shapes that are touching in the vector artwork are now being drawn not-touching. In the original example, if I resize the logo to a different size, the places the gaps happen change - some places that are gapped now touch, others that didn't have gaps now do.

                                             

                                            THIS IS A BUG which will affect legacy artwork, and will affect workflows. This has degraded the usability of the Creative Suite as a whole, and should be corrected as soon as possible.

                                            • 20. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                              conroy Level 5

                                              Screenshots of simple example of Ps CS5 correctly rendering Vector Smart Objects and Ps CS6 rendering garbage...

                                               

                                              Illustrator artwork: 4 squares, pixel-aligned and butted together.

                                              Screen-shot-2013-03-27-at-16.09.32.png

                                               

                                               

                                              CS5 rendering correctly.

                                              Screen-shot-2013-03-27-at-16.09.40.png

                                               

                                               

                                              CS6 creating anti-aliasing garbage between elements of the imported vector document.

                                              Screen-shot-2013-03-27-at-16.09.45.png

                                              • 21. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                MarketingDen Level 1

                                                Thank you. Exactly the example I had in mind.

                                                • 22. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                  conroy Level 5

                                                  Although my example didn't show it, beware that VSOs which are simply placed and not scaled or rotated can be erroneously rendered by Ps CS6: garbage antialising can appear where there should be none in vector artwork that's definitely pixel-aligned in Illustrator.

                                                  • 23. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                    MarketingDen Level 1

                                                    Further to this, our logos are designed and built by designers. Designers are a particularly interesting breed of computer user, generally prone to magical thinking and non-linear ways of approaching problem solving. If I said to them "you need to build all of your Illustrator artwork pixel aligned" (assuming that to be a fix to this issue, which it is not), the effect on them would be similar to a dog trying to understand Shakespeare, or Charlie Brown listening to his teacher.

                                                    • 24. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                      Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                      Conroy, is there a way you can make that test file available online?

                                                       

                                                      -Noel

                                                      • 26. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                        conroy Level 5

                                                        Remove the .ps extension that is mysteriously appended to the download.

                                                        The filename is "butted squares.ai" (without quotes).

                                                        • 27. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                          Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                          I had to change it from butted squares.pdf myself.  Could AI files really be PDF format under the covers?  I have "Mime Sniffing" enabled.

                                                           

                                                          -Noel

                                                          • 28. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                            conroy Level 5

                                                            Yes, modern AI files are PDF.

                                                            • 29. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                              Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                              Thanks.  The problem is trivially easy to reproduce with that file.

                                                               

                                                              Kind of a twist...  In 13.1.2 we have this behavior:

                                                               

                                                              PlacedRotatedScaled.png

                                                               

                                                              -Noel

                                                              • 30. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                                JJMack Most Valuable Participant

                                                                Conroy your entitled to your opinion be it right or wrong.  When someone like Noel repeat something you wrote it may be because he missed your append or he was showing he agreed with what you wrote and was re-enforcing it.  Also humans learn from repetition.  Some may think I missed the point of this thread. However I'm quite sure some think that if an embedded smart object is all vector graphics the smart object layer will be scaled using vector math when scaled which is not the case.  I know you elected yourself judge and jury for this forum however in my opinion you stepped outside your authority.

                                                                • 31. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                                  conroy Level 5

                                                                  JJ, go away if you cannot contribute to the thread.

                                                                  • 32. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                                    conroy Level 5

                                                                    Noel, I think I can explain your results being different to mine... we're not comparing apples with apples.

                                                                     

                                                                    Your "Scaled" VSO is correctly rendered because it is aligned with the pixel grid and has even dimensions, therefore all edges of its four squares lie exactly on pixel boundaries and no anti-aliasing happens.

                                                                     

                                                                    My scaled VSO has deliberately odd dimensions so that, even though the overall object is aligned to the pixel grid, the internal edges of the four squares are mid-pixel and provoke the undesirable internal anti-aliasing by CS6 (but not CS5).

                                                                     

                                                                    Regarding the poor rendering of your "Placed" VSO, it should have placed as 50 px by 50 px but yours is 67 by 66, and the odd width results in the undesirable internal antialising by CS6 (but not CS5) for the reason given in the previous paragraph.

                                                                     

                                                                    Edit: I've realized that your Ps document must have a different resolution to mine, which will cause the placed VSO to cover a different number of pixels. I used a 72 ppi Ps document and my Illustrator artwork is aligned to pixels in a 72 ppi grid.

                                                                     

                                                                    However, the VSO should still place as a perfect square, but both CS5 and CS6 occasionally miscalculate the size of one dimension of an imported vector document. The Ps versions make different sizing errors for any given imported file.

                                                                    • 33. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                                      Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                                      Yep, I can exactly reproduce your results with 72 ppi and an odd sized rescale.

                                                                       

                                                                      Interestingly, whether I place the image in a 96 or 72 ppi document in Photoshop CS5, I see no division lines, and the square stays all black (except for anti-aliasing at the edges).

                                                                       

                                                                      Looks like an obvious regression.  I'm surprised it's been allowed to remain.

                                                                       

                                                                      -Noel

                                                                      • 34. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                                        JJMack Most Valuable Participant

                                                                        Noel do you think that Adobe management will have their programmers fix a bug like this one that is minor and effect only the few users that notice thing like this.  It would be nice if Adobe fixed reported bugs however Adobe for years has only fixed major bugs and put bugs like this one their may be fixed is some future release bug list.

                                                                        • 35. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                                          conroy Level 5

                                                                          JJMack wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          [...] a bug like this one that is minor [...]

                                                                           

                                                                          Are you trying to be funny?

                                                                          • 36. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                                            MarketingDen Level 1

                                                                            This is a major issue that affects core functionality of the entire CS6 Suite. This bug degrades the ability to drag and drop or copy and paste between the CS applications - you now cannot trust the results. It introduces a hitch into formerly seamless workflows. Until this bug is fixed, I have to remain vigiant and on the lookout for this issue cropping up in legacy artwork and artwork supplied to me by designers and clients. Thank FSM that I noticed in time the corrupted logo in artwork I had prepared for an email that was going to be distributed to a list of thousands of customers.

                                                                             

                                                                            This is a major issue.

                                                                            • 37. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                                              JJMack Most Valuable Participant

                                                                              No its not funny at all it just seems to be the way Adobe does thing.  While for some its a major problem Adobe may not classify it as a major problem to be fixed. I've been trying to get two bugs they added to Photoshop in CS4 since CS5 I skipped CS4.  They also have not fix the bug I reported ic CS6.  There many bugs in CS6 that have been reported and not fixed. It the way Adobe supports its customers. A management problem.

                                                                              • 38. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                                                Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                                                JJMack wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                Noel do you think that Adobe management will have their programmers fix a bug like this one that is minor and effect only the few users that notice thing like this.  It would be nice if Adobe fixed reported bugs however Adobe for years has only fixed major bugs and put bugs like this one their may be fixed is some future release bug list.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Can't say.  I know I certainly wouldn't consider leaving any reproducible customer reported bugs unfixed across a major release.  I personally don't even leave any internally reported bugs unfixed across a minor update.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Adobe management would say they have a sustainable strategy that produces value and it would actually be hard to argue with that, inasmuch as it's tough to argue with success - the product DOES sell for a crapload of money.

                                                                                 

                                                                                But honestly, it's just possible management needs a few more engineers and a few less marketeers.

                                                                                 

                                                                                -Noel

                                                                                • 39. Re: Smart Objects rendered incorrectly in CS6
                                                                                  JJMack Most Valuable Participant

                                                                                  Most programmers feel that way bugs major or minor they all should be exterminated.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Yes Adobe just seems to be market driven.  At one time I was involved in a project that was driven by marketeers. The ones I worked for were a strange group individuals with inflated egos. They were even more concerned with impressing upper management then the market.

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