8 Replies Latest reply on Mar 20, 2013 2:41 PM by Todd_Kopriva

    Formats and Rendering

    whitey161

      Hi Guys,

       

      I have searched and read so much information regarding this topic in various plaecs across the web recently but am a bit confused by it all.

       

      I want to make sure i maintain as good quality settings and footage as possible throughout my project.

      It is a home edit of footage shot on my gopro HD Hero2.

      All footage is shot at 720 @59.94 FPS.

       

      Importing i use the footage to create its own composition so the comp should have perfect settings for my footage and no loss of quality yes?

      At some stages i might need to precompose and move up a layer. This can mean that some of my footage is buried 3 compositions down, do i lose video quality by doing this, it doesnt appear so but maybe i do?

       

      Also, i bet you have heard this a million times before, which settings are best for my output. I have been typically using H.264 encoding with best settings. This gives a pretty good output that i am usually fairly happy with. I looked about at settings yetserday and you can change framerates and clours and bitrates :/

       

      Do i need to mes with those settings. I want the footage to come out at the best settings at 25 fps for PAL TV's.

      Should i encode at H.264, change the fps to 25?

      Should i set maximum and target bitrates?

       

      Sorry for all the questions i just cant get my head around some of the information. So many settings, should i perhaps use MPEG?

       

      thanks,

       

      Chris

        • 1. Re: Formats and Rendering
          Dave LaRonde Level 6

          All footage is shot at 720 @59.94 FPS.... I want the footage to come out at the best settings at 25 fps for PAL TV's.

           

           

          Then you should SHOOT and EDIT at 25 fps. Don't mix frame rates.  If your camera only makes 50fps video, you can still use it in a 25fps comp with no problems as long as you shoot 720.  How about 1080?  It won't be a sure bet.

           

          When you work in AE, layer order or nesting a comp make no difference in image quality, so don't worry.

           

          And don't use AE to make H.264's!  Open Adobe Media Encoder, open the AE project, find the comp you want to render and add it to AME.  Use one of AME's presets to make the file or make your own preset.  You'll get better image quality. 

          • 2. Re: Formats and Rendering
            whitey161 Level 1

            OK thankyou for the speedy response.

             

            the reason it is shot at 60 fps is because it gives much better quality when i slow the speed down. Because its an action sports vid i am slowing down the video alot. Ill often slow it to 1/3 speed as it is or ill even go to 3 or 4 % using the twixtor plug-in. Hence i probably have very different framerates everywhere.

             

            OK i shall try the media encoder, i have never used it before, typically just render everything straight out of after efects. Is there a reason for you saying that?

             

            your help is much appreciated.

            • 3. Re: Formats and Rendering
              Dave LaRonde Level 6

              ... i probably have very different framerates everywhere.

               

              First item of business: STRAIGHTEN OUT YOUR FRAME RATES!  GET THEM CONSISTENT!

               

              This may mean you have to use Twixtor on the majority of your footage just to have the luxury of shooting in slo-mo whenever you want.  The slo mo stuff would be CONFORMED to 25fps, and everything else would be CONVERTED to 25fps using Twixtor.  It's time and storage-consuming, but that's the price you'll have to pay.

               

              Then cut in your editing application, and do your AE work.  You use AME because it preserves more image quality than AE.

              • 4. Re: Formats and Rendering
                Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                I have no problems with you shooting everything at 60. You just have to live with the extra workflow. As long as you're slowing down the footage by change frame interpretation or by using Twixtor everything is going to be OK. If you're just dropping your HFR (high frame rate) footage in a 25 fps comp (PAL) you're going to get some frame blending that will probably be almost undetectable played back at real time.

                 

                I don't see any reason for you to do all of your editing and compositing in a standard PAL (25 fps) composition or sequence. Any footage shot at 60 will still play back at the right speed. I think, however, that you might want to consider shooting things like interviews and normal speed sequences at a frame rate that matches your project. You will get less stuttering in panning shots, more motion blur in normal action, which is what we are used to seeing, and have another full f stop of exposure range with a normal frame rate. This makes a big difference in the quality of the image, the noise levels, and the amount of post production color grading you can do.

                • 5. Re: Formats and Rendering
                  whitey161 Level 1

                  Thankyou for that response. yes all of my time remapping is done using twixtor or the time stretch tool in Ae. Is this ok?

                   

                  My compositions are typically 720p at 59.94 fps to match all of my footage. when i render i try to convert it to 25 fps. I have always been doing this straight from Ae but will now have a go with the media encoder as i thought i should be able to get better quality somehow.

                   

                  Thankyou for your feedback.

                  • 6. Re: Formats and Rendering
                    Dave LaRonde Level 6

                    My compositions are typically 720p at 59.94 fps to match all of my footage. when i render i try to convert it to 25 fps. I have always been doing this straight from Ae but will now have a go with the media encoder as i thought i should be able to get better quality somehow.

                     

                    You're doing it backwards.   You need to consider what you need to DELIVER.  In your case, it's 25fps. 

                    By working at 59.94 in AE, the footage you shot for slo-mo is NOT slo-mo.  You have simply slowed the motion down, and you have reduced the image quality.  It isn't the pristine slo-mo you wanted.  Your image quality is suffering even before you convert it to H.264, and Adobe Media Encoder won't help.

                     

                    This is why you shoot at 25fps, edit at 25fps, and shoot ONLY at 59.94 when you want shots to be slowed down -- you then conform these shots to 25fps, and they will be almost 2 1/2 times slower with NO quality loss.

                     

                    This requres more planning, and more careful shooting.  If you choose to shoot everything at 59.94, you still have to edit at 25, and you have to use the procedures I mentioned in my first post.

                     

                    This is more complicated than you first imagined.  And you have much thinking to do about the way frame rates work.

                    • 7. Re: Formats and Rendering
                      Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Listen to Dave. You should always make your compositions match the best case delivery format for everything from size to frame rate.

                       

                      If you want to do slow mo in AE with 60FPS footage simply interpret the footage as 25 and drop it in a 25 FPS comp. This is exactly the same thing as shooting film with a film camera and then cutting it into a movie that is being projected. The projector runs at 25/24 so the 60fps footage takes a little more than twice as long to play back. 1 second of real time is a little more than 2 seconds projected.

                       

                      If you're using Twixtor to slow down this footage even more in AE you'll get better results if your footage is interpreted at the same frame rate as the comp (25) and then you apply Twixtor to a solid, reference the footage, and do your slow down there. The results will be far superior to the technique you are using.

                       

                      Personally, I'd also increase the frame size to full HD (1920 X 1080). That's not much of a scale up in the footage, it gives you more output options, and when you're done with the comp you can resize in AME using one of the H.264 presets and get much better results that you could ever get in AE using the render cue.

                      • 8. Re: Formats and Rendering
                        Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                        Dave and Rick are giving you good advice.

                         

                        I address some of this in this FAQ entry:

                        http://forums.adobe.com/thread/729526

                         

                        One of the most useful items on that page is the link to this document on planning your work with delivery specifications in mind.