27 Replies Latest reply on Apr 1, 2013 3:41 PM by JJMack

    Noel some advice please

    JJMack Mythic

      Noel I booted my new dell today installed the widows update but not the video driver for the Nivida Quadro 4000 offered by windows update.  Don't know which driver is best for it.


      I also installed the Dell updates they had on their site for my system.  None were for the Nividia Quadro 4000


      Windows backup failed with I/o error on the cheap 4TB external usb3 seagate drive I just got.  I need to test the drive. Do you know of a good free drive test program?

      So I did a backup on to the internal hard drive which worked. I also created a recovery DVD.


      I see  some applications installed on the system I don't know:


      1.) Dell Backup and Recovery Manager is installed.  What is that about? Do you use it? Does it involve a cloud server and a subscription and a cost?


      2.) Dell Client System Update application installed. When I  ran that it found a recommended Dell update for Quadro 600??? did not install it. It also found a optional BIOS update. I may install that.


      3.) Dell Data Protection | Access     what is that about???  Looks like it may be a tool a corporation IT department might use...


      4.) Dell System Detect which was installed when I had Dell's web site detect my service tag.


      5.) Lastly it looks like Dell installed a trial "Trend Micro Client/Server Security Agent... Though on the task bar the up triangle seem to indicate activation for  the Trend Micro security agent is required.

      The windows Control Panel, System and Security, Action Center  shows

      1.) Windows firewall on and Trend Personal Firewall off

      2.) Virus protection  Trend Micro Client/Server Security Agent Antivirus reports that it is up to date and virus scanning is on

      3:) Windows Defender and Trend Micro Client/Server Agent Anti-spyw both report they are turned on

      Note:Running two on more can cause you computer to run slow....

      What do you use for Antivirous and Firewall.   Lately I have given up on Norton Internet Security and have uninstalled it from my windows systems and I just use the  Windows Firewall and install Microsoft Security Essentials. Don't know if this is any good.


      Advice Please.

        • 1. Re: Noel some advice please
          conroy Rockstar

          JJMack wrote:


          cheap 4TB external usb3 seagate drive I just got.  I need to test the drive.


          These cheap Seagate drives have only a 1 year manufacturer's warranty. Shows how little faith Seagate has in the reliability. Return it and buy an enterprise drive with a five year warranty.

          • 2. Re: Noel some advice please
            JJMack Mythic

            Seagate's is 2 Years its a desktop drive.

            • 3. Re: Noel some advice please
              conroy Rockstar

              Well, two years is only half as crap as one year.


              I guess you got an external cased drive. If you buy Seagate's consumer-level bare desktop 4TB drive, it's a one year warranty.

              • 4. Re: Noel some advice please
                Noel Carboni Mythic

                Hi JJ,


                I'm deep into software development today, but I will get back to you with more detail soon.


                I'd update the BIOS from Dell's site, then go to nVidia.com for their latest driver for your card.  I haven't heard of anything wrong with it.


                I don't use any Dell pre-installed software; I installed my system fresh from a retail Windows 7 disc.  No frills (I have all the config changes etc. I've done written up in my Configure Windows "To Work" books).  I've not found any Dell "value add" software I felt was worth having.


                Windows Backup is plenty good for making and restoring backups.  I have it scheduled to run every night.


                I prefer SSDs, but for spinning HDDs I prefer Western Digital enterprise class drives.  I have RE4 models.  For external USB I swear by Western Digital MyBook drives (I have 3GB and 2GB models)


                My advice:  Remove all Dell-supplied anti-malware and go get Avast! free antivirus.  Their version 8 software is excellent, and it even lets you know if you have critical applications that are falling out of date.  You only need the free version - don't accidentally hit one of the bigger, more colorful "upgrade to pro" type buttons during installation.



                • 5. Re: Noel some advice please
                  Noel Carboni Mythic

                  Okay, I've come up for air...  I'll answer these one step at a time in more detail.

                  JJMack wrote:


                  Windows backup failed with I/o error on the cheap 4TB external usb3 seagate drive I just got.


                  I suggest you probably want to format the drive.  You'll want to format it to NTFS and use Windows 7 cluster sizing, as Windows XP cluster sizing will limit you to 2 TB.  In my case, after formatting my big backup drive, I set the permissions to wide open as I don't want to be fooling around trying to work around the drive protecting its data from me when it's crunch time and I'm trying to restore data.


                  Specifically, I made Administrators owner of the root folder, then gave Authenticated Users, SYSTEM, Administrators, and Users Full Control permissions,  which will propagate to subfolders.   I maintain physical 9 mm security over the hardware.



                  Hm, on re-reading it looks like I've covered everything else.



                  I'm interested in seeing your Passmark benchmark score on that system when you get the dust settled.



                  • 6. Re: Noel some advice please
                    JJMack Mythic

                    The drive came formatted NTFS 4TG I'm running chkdsk /R on it right now. Even though its empty the surface test should take many many hours been running now about 4 hours and its only 50% done.


                    I was planning on removing Dell Backup and  Trend Macro security.  I wondered what you used.  Yes I will update the BIOS and most likely keep the Dell Client System Update have it search Dell support for updated and just inform me so I don't need to do the searching. 


                    I don't want to run any benchmark till I add RAW. Computer properties shows experanve performance 7.4 the low score by the Quadro 4000 both vido scors 7.4 processors and RAM score 7.7 the C: SSd 7.9  the f: 500GB 10k drive not bad.  The machine solid and a great buy a 2K.

                    • 7. Re: Noel some advice please
                      Noel Carboni Mythic

                      Consider re-formatting the external drive anyway after you check it.  I wouldn't trust my data to something formatted en masse by a manufacturer.  Better to format it with the OS that's going to use it.


                      Whether or not you format it, try the following:  Scare up 100 GB or so of really big files (videos, etc.), copy them to the drive, then compare the copies with the originals using the COMP command.  I've read where some people get occasional data errors on external drives, and I'm not sure anyone's ever nailed down why.  I've done the test myself (as well as actually restoring data from a backup when upgrading from one machine to another, then again when I upgraded to my SSD array).  Never had a data error, and I hope that's the same performance you'll see. 


                      I suspect your Windows Backup error had to do with permissions.



                      • 8. Re: Noel some advice please
                        JJMack Mythic

                        Its a compatibility issue found this on Microsoft site.  I need to get a smaller drive.  Updated BIOS removed Dell software. Now to get the  RAM new smaller disk and add other old hardware multi card reader, Wacom Intuos, bluetooth, UPS with USB panel.  Then Photoshop.


                        Known compatibility issues

                        The following are known compatibility issues that may occur when you use large-sector drives: 


                        • If you are using a logical sector drive of a size other than 512 bytes, Windows system image backup and restore operations may fail, and you receive the following error message:

                          One of the backup files could not be created.
                          Details: The request could not be performed because of an I/O device error.

                          Error code: 0x8078002A

                        • 9. Re: Noel some advice please
                          Noel Carboni Mythic

                          FYI, I use a larger sector size and Windows Backup works just fine with my 3TB drive.  Did you try formatting it yourself?



                          • 10. Re: Noel some advice please
                            JJMack Mythic

                            The problem has to do with the 4K segments.  Some drives can use 4K segments and emulate 512 segments and backup will work with them Advance format http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh848035(v=vs.85).aspx

                            • 11. Re: Noel some advice please
                              Noel Carboni Mythic

                              Get a Western Digital MyBook then.  I can say with authority that they work.



                              • 12. Re: Noel some advice please
                                JJMack Mythic

                                Yes WD has the Advance Format

                                • 13. Re: Noel some advice please
                                  JJMack Mythic

                                  RAM is on order and most software installed. Have not used Photoshop much even though I'm colorblind the cheep 23" 1920x1080 Samsung TN 95DPI display I had hanging around is awful for image editing. It will be good for a second display for paletts and the web.  I hope to get a higher DPI resolution IPS display for editing images on.  Once you start editing images on a high resolution display you don't want to go back to a 100DPI displays. Except for reading text on the web.


                                  The little I did use Photoshop it did not crash.  However that does not mean much I was only getting a few crashes per month on my Dell I-7 machine.  I went for the Nvidia for some of my crashes were in a ATI driver othere were in a scriotUI  module or the image dll or in Photoshop.exe.


                                  The New Dell T5600 is a solid well built machine and quite easy to open and access things.  However it is much slower the my Dell I-7 starting up.  It takes a long time to get through the BIOS POST. The the Raid controller puts up message it found two non raid drives but BIOS handled that. Then the display goes blank for a while a blinking cursor shows up then it starts to boot Windows 7.  I could have booted and shutdown my I-7 in the same timeframe.


                                  Also I have had two problems in the short time I been installing the machine.  Once the bluetooth Mouse stopped responding and the wacom tablet was also not functioning. Both use USB2 ports in the rear of the machine. The USB 2 keyboard that's plugged back there was still working. A USB 2 Multi Card reader and a UPS were also plugged in back there. I don't know if they were working.  I plugged in a USB mouse into the front of the machine and rebooted it using that mouse.  The second problem I had was the next day after a deep sleep the Wacom tablet did not wake up.  The machine take a long time to come out of a deep sleep too I think its a BIOS thing. Has the latest BIOS update and after a re-boot the Wacom was back.


                                  I know I wrote I would not do any benchmark till I installed som RAM.  Well I could not wait to do a little testing.  I downloaded Free NovaBench and Ran its test.  My machine came in in the middle of the pack of E5-2620 processors 1775 the highest ones were in the 1999 range.  They had more RAM.  I ran some o the test one at a time.  I wa very surprised to find the write time to the solid state drive were much slower then the write speeds of the spinning disk.  80MB/sec solid starte drive, 114Mb/sec the 10k DRIVE AND 109MB to the external USB 3 drive???

                                  • 14. Re: Noel some advice please
                                    Noel Carboni Mythic

                                    What kind of SSD is it?



                                    • 15. Re: Noel some advice please
                                      JJMack Mythic

                                      I seem to have a problem with the Wacom Intuos2 on wake-up. When I hit a keyboard key to wake up the system after a while I see the LED lights on the USB 2 Multi Card reader and the Intuos 2 tablet turn on but then the Intuos LED turns off.


                                      I powered downed and started the system up and used F2 to get into the BIOS set up to look for power settings.  I notices the RAM speed was 1333Mhz not 1600Mhz I need to find out why.


                                      There was only one power saving option that could be set to be more aggressive then the default setting that allows wake up on lan. So I need to look now at the wacom site.


                                      The SSD and Memory in the Dell invoice follows

                                      0MHTT  Module,Solid State Drive,256G,S3,7MM,Precision Workstation

                                      14TNX   Module,Dual In-Line Memory Module,8GB,4X2GB,1600,Registered Dimm

                                      • 16. Re: Noel some advice please
                                        Noel Carboni Mythic

                                        I would suggest never using any of the power-saving sleep states.  Just leave it on all the time (it's built for continuous duty).  Windows has never been rock solid in resuming from sleep states.


                                        Did you look at the drive inside?  I don't believe Dell makes their own drives.  Most modern drives (made from 2012 on) can yield FAR better performance than what you measured.  Generally speaking they can saturate a SATA link.  I don't know what port you've plugged it into, but I'm guessing it's in one of the SATA III ports, which means it literally should give you 500 megabytes/second transfer speeds.


                                        Because it's a refurb, I hope Dell isn't populating these systems with old tech drives...  That would not be nice.



                                        • 17. Re: Noel some advice please
                                          JJMack Mythic

                                          Noel Carboni wrote:


                                          I would suggest never using any of the power-saving sleep states.  Just leave it on all the time (it's built for continuous duty).  Windows has never been rock solid in resuming from sleep states.


                                          Did you look at the drive inside?


                                          Because it's a refurb, I hope Dell isn't populating these systems with old tech drives...  That would not be nice.

                                          Yes windows power management has had its problems.  When the machine is up and running I can un-plug the Intuos 2  and plug  it back in and all is fine.  If I put the machine to sleep then wake it up the Intuos LED will go on the off.  When its un-plugged  then plugged back in its an unknown USB device to windows 7.  Have the latest driver downloaded it two days ago.  There is nothing on the Wacom site I can find related to my problem.  I do not know if uninstalling the unknown device with the device manager and then having windows scan for new devices would work. I'll just keep it running since wake up takes so much longer then my Dell XPS 9100 I-7 machine.


                                          The SSD is tucked in so its not possible to read what is written on it.  The machine inside is spotless and all parts looks as though the were manufactured yesterday.  On the Windows score card it gets a 7.9...  and 32GB of ram will be added...



                                          • 18. Re: Noel some advice please
                                            Noel Carboni Mythic

                                            If the SSD is getting a 7.9 then it definitely has more throughput than your spinning hard drives; perhaps that other benchmark didn't do a good job of measuring it.  When you get the additional stuff going try Passmark.


                                            I'm surprised that it's not getting a 7.9 on the RAM access...  I would have thought your RAM would test better than mine (which reads 7.8), not worse, since you have the option of running the RAM faster than I do.  You mentioned a 1333 vs. 1600 disparity above - did you get to the bottom of that?  Perhaps you don't know that Precisions have recommended ways to populate the RAM sockets.  It may kick up to multi-channel access and the higher speed if you populate the DIMM sockets in groups of 3 - e.g., 3 on the motherboard and 3 DIMMs on the riser, which is how I'm set up.  That may say you should have opted for 24 GB or 48 GB though, instead of 32.  That's why I got 48 GB.


                                            EDIT:  I see that your system has quad channel capability.  That probably says you'll get the best performance if you populate all 4 slots per processor with identical DIMMs.


                                            Do you have a setting in your BIOS for "Non-Uniform Memory Addressing"?  I do in mine, and as far as I know the concept is still valid in the newest processors.  Windows alters its process allocation slightly to try to run threads from a process in a processor that is nearer its memory.  Enabling NUMA actually netted me some measurable additional performance.  With the BIOS setting disabled your memory blocks are interleaved.


                                            I'd be doing benchmarks every step of the way if I were you, so you know when changes help or hinder performance.  I do understand if you don't want to publish them publicly until you have everything just so.



                                            • 19. Re: Noel some advice please
                                              JJMack Mythic

                                              I did not get to the botton of 1333 vs 16000 question.  Non-Unform Memory Addressing is defaulted to enable and that is the setting in my machine. There is no speed setting the machine can use either speed and will run at the slowest ram speed inatalled.  I did not take the ram out to look at it. The invoice listed 4 2GB 1600 installed. When the 4 8GB 1600 ECC ram I ordered comes I'll look at what is installed.  The slots are hard to get to. Two slots on two side of each processor. Four are covered by an air tunnel.  To get to those I have to remove the housing that holds the dvd and has slots for two 2.5" disk.  Once removed the tunnel can be removed..  If it turns our they are 1333 dimms I send them back to Dell if the 32GB runs at 1600.

                                              • 20. Re: Noel some advice please
                                                JJMack Mythic

                                                Noel thank you four your help.  Ram came yesterday I removed the 8GB and installed the 32GB still ran at 1333Mhz so I put the 8GB back in.  So not I have 40GB.  I downloaded the Dell Precision T5600 Workstation Technical Guide and found the answer.  Turns out it the processors I have reduces the speed used.


                                                Maximum memory speed is tied to processor.

                                                1600MHz memory will run at reduced speeds - 1333MHz with 7.2GT/s processors and at 1066MHz with 6.4GT/s processors

                                                1333MHz memory will run at reduced speed - 1066MHz with 6.4GT/s processors


                                                I ran the NovaBench and my score went from  1775 to 1884 there are only 4 higher scores listed on their web site 3 of the 4 have more ran the one with less 32GB has a faster video card.


                                                Now to see if I can use Photoshop on one cheep poor display till the display I want is manufactured. You sure do get use to using two displays for  Pgotoshop. 


                                                I still want a small high resolution display. The 23" 1920x1080 seems large to me.  I have two 20"  1600x1200 on my Dell XPS 9100 I7 machine together their size is great.


                                                I would love a 2560x1600 20" display for image editing. A 23" one would be acceptable for it would be the same physical size as my cheep display which would be great for Photoshop pallets.  Its lower resolution would display the font larger then the high resolution.   I like to tile image wallpaper across displays and have created Photoshop actions to create image the contain a split image to match screen resolution so the section displayed by each display the same physical size. 

                                                • 21. Re: Noel some advice please
                                                  Noel Carboni Mythic

                                                  Wow, so the 1600MHz RAM is only a benefit when you have the really high-end Xeons, then.  Anyhow, 1333MHz isn't bad - you're going to love the way Photoshop runs with 40GB of RAM on tap.  I think nothing of working on 50 or 100 megapixel files at 16 bits/channel any more.


                                                  I hadn't heard of Novabench before, but the ones where you can compare with others online and see how your system is doing are good.  I like the Passmark PerformanceTest benchmark suite for that myself.  As it turns out I downloaded a new BIOS last night for my Precision T5500, and it actually made a positive difference in my performance (my Passmark RAM and disk scores gained a little).  Notably this BIOS claims better management of RAM allocation with multiple processors - I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds pertinent, and I'll take every bit of additional performance.    The latest Catalyst 13.3 beta 3 driver recently added a bit of display performance as well.  All good!


                                                  Some Photoshop benchmarks to try:


                                                  Radial Blur benchmark by Keith Simonian: 

                                                  http://ksimonian.com/Blog/2010/02/24/improved-photoshop-benchmark-cpu-speed-test-for-both- mac-pc-free-radial-blur-filter-test/

                                                  (mine's the 3rd highest score there at 9.7 seconds)


                                                  ClubOfOne Photoshop Speed test:


                                                  (I got 11.2 seconds with that one - you might want to disable the steps that change your color working space settings)


                                                  I'm also curious how quickly Photoshop opens your raw files now - though of course that will depend also a lot on the settings you choose.  I'm betting you're going to love that workstation.  Congratulations on a fine purchase.



                                                  • 22. Re: Noel some advice please
                                                    JJMack Mythic

                                                    Noel Carboni wrote:


                                                    I'm also curious how quickly Photoshop opens your raw files now - though of course that will depend also a lot on the settings you choose.  I'm betting you're going to love that workstation.  Congratulations on a fine purchase.

                                                    I don't get too excited about how fast Photoshop Opens and saves files.  I try to keep my the amount of user files on my c: disk  down.  Some Applications Put their user file un their User Documents.Where possible I change that. On this system I plane have the majority of user data files on the external USB 3 drive maybe someday they will make a ThunderBolt adapter for a PC.   I have a 1TB external eSATA drive on my XPS system and can live with its speed for user data files.


                                                    Want to keep as much free space on my solid state C: disk for paging and Photoshop scratch as I can .  I also configured Photoshop to use my 500GB 10k RPM drive for additional scratch space.  Also have to use that disk for system backup for backup does not work on my external seagate 4TB drive.  I only backup C: system, programs, user settings using windows backup user library data files on external drives are not.  I backup the external drives manually by add attaching an additional external drive. The new T5600 has two USB 3 ports where my XPS system only has one eSATA port. The machine need some work to do while I'm sleeping.


                                                    I'll look into those Photoshop benchmarks I hope thy break out open and saving disk performance as a seperate line item.  Photoshop's scratch and autosave is where speed is needed and they are on c:

                                                    • 23. Re: Noel some advice please
                                                      Noel Carboni Mythic

                                                      I was thinking more along the lines of after you press the [Open Image] box in Camera Raw and the file opening into Photoshop, which will have essentially nothing to do with your disk speed.  That's about how well the multi-threaded raw conversion uses your CPUs.



                                                      • 24. Re: Noel some advice please
                                                        JJMack Mythic

                                                        OK My Canon 1d 4 is the camera I have with the largest number of pixels RAW image open as smart object layer around 3 seconds after you click Open Object.  The Photoshop Blur bench test took some 12 or 13 seconds and the Speed test one took 15 seconds. I ran the speed with my normal Photoshop settings not his striped down performance settings.

                                                        • 25. Re: Noel some advice please
                                                          Noel Carboni Mythic

                                                          Your performance sounds really good.  Thumbs up!  Enjoy that beast.



                                                          • 26. Re: Noel some advice please
                                                            Noel Carboni Mythic

                                                            P.S., JJ, what did the 32 GB of ECC RAM cost?  Just curious.


                                                            Passmark provides a latency measurement, which was just reduced from 40ns to 39ns on my system by a Dell BIOS upgrade (so far, it's still stable).  I'm curious what latency you're seeing with the T5600 design.  Have you run any benchmarks that measure latency?



                                                            • 27. Re: Noel some advice please
                                                              JJMack Mythic

                                                              Memory from DMS $316 32GB.  The only benchmark I ran is free NovaBench does not measure memory latency.  It has a memory test and my memory score changed  from a score of 186  (10062MB/s) to a score of 283 (10112MB/s) both score with same BIOS first with 8GB installed second with 40GB installed.


                                                              DMS $79  8GB ECC Registered

                                                              Dell $108 8GB ECC Registered

                                                              eBay  $62 8GB ECC Registered minimum order 10 machine only has 4 slots