23 Replies Latest reply on Apr 9, 2013 7:55 AM by Klaus_Brandenburg

    Prores422

    RicardoMetrovision Level 1

      We are importing prores footage 422 in after effetcs CS6 and when we export the media we have bright and color differences compared with the original footage. We found an Adobe document that explains how to edit the "interpretation rules" to tell after effetcs that footage is 4:2:2. We did it but we're still experiencing the same issue.

      Looking forward to your thoughts

       

      Ricardo

        • 2. Re: Prores422
          Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          There's a gamma bug in QuickTime. Make sure you have all of the updated installed and that you're picking maintain legacy gamma in your renders.

          • 3. Re: Prores422
            Matt Dubuque Level 1

            Rick, does following your advice to the letter here eliminate this gamma shift problem or simply make the end product better?

             

            I'm not keen on losing my very hard work doing primary and secondary color grades, nor in having those hours of hard work matching shots, creating moods and tones with my tweaks to make individual scenes warmer or cooler and more randomized in any substantial manner.

             

            If I do everything you recommend above, am I going to have to revisit my applied gamma curves for each of the RGB channels, scene by scene?


            I'm a meticulous color grader and I know how to match shots well.

             

            Thanks,  matt

            • 4. Re: Prores422
              Todd_Kopriva Level 8

              There is no guaranteed way to avoid gamma shifts when using QuickTime. The problem is that the QuickTime infrastructure attempts to do a sort of color management, but this introduces problems because different formats are treated differently, and different version of QuickTime behave differently. If you need consistent color, don't use QuickTime. If you must use QuickTime, test thoroughly with your exact version of QuickTime and your exact formats, and don't deviate from those tested factors.

               

              BTW, this affects all software that uses QuickTime, including Final Cut Pro (and Nuke, etc.).

              • 5. Re: Prores422
                Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                You have to setup a workflow that gives you consistent results. Follow Todd's advice. I'm on a Mac so I use QT all the time. You're on a Mac because you're using ProRez. Read up on workflow with ProRez (there are dozens if not hundreds of options) and then pick one and stay with it. If you get right down to it this is not anything more than a display issue. The pixel information doesn't change, only the 'display' of that information.

                 

                FYI, I have 4 different ProRez workflows for 4 different clients. It's a bit of a pain, but everybody is happy.

                • 6. Re: Prores422
                  Matt Dubuque Level 1

                  Thanks so much for your prompt and helpful answers!

                   

                  I respect both your opinions so highly and am so fortunate to have your help on my work, which is very important to me.

                   

                  I'm a little puzzled by Todd's statement that I should not use QuickTime if I "need consistent color".

                   

                  Isn't that why we have LUTs, so that we will have consistent color? 

                   

                  It's hard to imagine a serious professional (as distinct from a YouTube hobbyist whose work will never be shown on a 20 foot screen) who doesn't need consistent color.

                   

                  Yet to me, Rick seems to be a consummate professional, and an inspirational one.

                   

                  Rick, what are the drawbacks to other delivery containers (such as PNG, X264 and H264) that tip the balance towards QT for you?


                  Thanks again,   matt

                  • 7. Re: Prores422
                    Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                    My comment was about how the QuickTime infrastructure can't/doesn't guarantee consistent color from one format to the next or one version to the next. That's a shortcoming in how QuickTime manages (or doesn't manage) color.

                     

                    My main point was that if you need consistent color, and you're stuck using QuickTime, don't presume that things will look the same when you go from one version of QuickTime to another or output to a different codec within QuickTime.

                     

                    After Effects has extensive color management features for consistent color, but that doesn't do much good if the last two steps of the chain (QuickTime encoding and QuickTime Player playback) change out from under us all the time.

                    • 8. Re: Prores422
                      Matt Dubuque Level 1

                      Thanks Todd.

                       

                      Perhaps it would behoove me to explore export containers other than QuickTime without these color shifting issues.

                       

                      Matt

                      • 9. Re: Prores422
                        Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                        Yep.

                        • 10. Re: Prores422
                          RicardoMetrovision Level 1

                          Hi,

                          I was reading all the answers but we were doing our tests, in fact we didn't finish yet. We are working in Final and after effects on windows and when we go back to final cut again (from after effects), we found inconsistences in levels and colors. It seems we are experiencing what Todd comments about "quicktime"

                          I'll let you know as soon as we finish our tests.

                          Thank you all for you help !

                          • 11. Re: Prores422
                            Matt Dubuque Level 1

                            I note that in this thread Rick recommended choosing "legacy gamma" for QT renders.....

                             

                            I'm doing most of my rendering in AME, which seems to be an acceptable workflow.  In AME for render with a QT container, does anyone have a recommendation for whether or not I should choose "automatic" gamma correction?

                             

                            Thanks, Matt

                             

                            Screen shot 2013-04-06 at 2.26.52 PM.png

                            • 12. Re: Prores422
                              Klaus_Brandenburg Level 2

                              Todd_Kopriva wrote:

                               

                              There is no guaranteed way to avoid gamma shifts when using QuickTime. The problem is that the QuickTime infrastructure attempts to do a sort of color management, but this introduces problems because different formats are treated differently, and different version of QuickTime behave differently. If you need consistent color, don't use QuickTime. If you must use QuickTime, test thoroughly with your exact version of QuickTime and your exact formats, and don't deviate from those tested factors.

                               

                              BTW, this affects all software that uses QuickTime, including Final Cut Pro (and Nuke, etc.).

                               

                              Sorry Todd, I must have missed this developement since I'm pretty sold to AVID production workflow. What would be a more color consistent container format then? MXF would work for me too but last time I checked this was not one of AEs favourite format. Has that changed or can you recommend something else?

                              • 13. Re: Prores422
                                Matt Dubuque Level 1

                                I note both Klaus and I have asked recent questions in this thread.....

                                • 14. Re: Prores422
                                  Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                                  What is the exact purpose of the movie that you're creating? I.e., what is the next step in the pipeline? Is the movie for use in an NLE? A color grading application? For final broadcast for television? For web video upload?

                                  • 15. Re: Prores422
                                    Klaus_Brandenburg Level 2

                                    Well in my case it's mostly back into AVID or to the customer where I have limited knowledge what he does to further process the file. But honestly, does it matter? If you say not to use Quicktime because if color inconsistency there has to be a better production and delivery container and codec for both PC and MAC. As for production I'm mostly in a PC only environment but delivery should be platform independent since some people still stick to their MACs

                                    • 16. Re: Prores422
                                      Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                                      Klaus, it does matter, since the right container is different for each purpose. For example, if you're going out to air, you may be delivering MXF OP1a files with MPEG-2 essences. If you're posting to Vimeo, then H.264 in a .mp4 container is the right thing. If you're going to another compositing application, then you may be delivering OpenEXR image sequences. For going to an NLE or color application, a DPX sequence makes more sense. If you want self-contained files, and you're going back and forth with Avid, MXF with DNxHD essence is a good choice.

                                       

                                      But note that my actual point above wasn't to never use QuickTime; it was that if you are going to use QuickTime, then you must not trust that colors will be the same from one codec to the next or one version to the next. If you must use QuickTime, then you _must_ test with your specific codec and version of QuickTime, and---once you've established that it's working for you---don't deviate from those factors without doing additional quality control checks all the way through your production pipeline.

                                      • 17. Re: Prores422
                                        Klaus_Brandenburg Level 2

                                        Thanks for clarification Todd One more question though. How to create an MXF with DNxHD essence? I only got the MXF OP1a option and so far I only worked with AVIDs quicktime codecs o this is the only option for me to use DNxHD. A quick google research only pointed me to an unanswerded post in the Premiere forum.

                                        • 18. Re: Prores422
                                          Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                                          It looks like this post doesn't have the detail that I would have hoped for, but the somewhat vague reference to Avid and DNxHD on this page is referring to the ability of the next version of Adobe Media Encoder to output DNxHD in MXF OP1a:

                                          https://blogs.adobe.com/premierepro/2013/04/whats-new-next-in-adobe-media-encoder.html

                                          I'll write a more detailed list of what's new in Adobe Media Encoder.

                                           

                                          Also, the next version of After Effects can import various versions of DNxHD as described here:

                                          http://adobe.ly/XqOTlE

                                          • 19. Re: Prores422
                                            Klaus_Brandenburg Level 2

                                            Hi Todd,

                                             

                                            sorry for not giving enough detail. I'm usually working on Avid Media Composer (varying from version 5 to 6) and After Effects (varying from CS5 to CS6). So far, the only way to use DNxHD is through Quicktime. The only way to output MXF from AVID is either as XDCAM or IMX up to 50 Mbit/s so I usually go the quicktime route with at least 120 Mbit/s. So I'm not seeing any "MXF with DNxHD essence" from this side.

                                             

                                            After Effects, on the other hand, adds some AVC Intra Class 100 to the game but I haven't tried that option yet since this quicktime "issue" is obviously kind of new to me.

                                             

                                            Main reason I'm asking is that I'm quite unhappy with quicktime not being 64bit and I had some occasional issues with the QT32 Server so if I could have a workflow without any Quicktime (but self-contained files) invloved, I'd be more than happy.

                                            • 20. Re: Prores422
                                              Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                                              I'll hold off on advising further until the new version is actually available. Then, you can grab the free 30-day trial version and try some things out with the new format/codec features.

                                              • 21. Re: Prores422
                                                Klaus_Brandenburg Level 2

                                                Todd, for my own PC staying up to date goes without saying. Well thanks to Adobe's new upgrade policy this is mandatory anyway But I really have no influence wheter some of my clients upgrade or not. Anyway, I guess I do some further testing with the AVC INTRA 100 and do further research in the AVID forums. But thanks for your informations so far.

                                                • 22. Re: Prores422
                                                  Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                                                  > Well thanks to Adobe's new upgrade policy this is mandatory anyway

                                                   

                                                  I don't understand this sentence.

                                                  • 23. Re: Prores422
                                                    Klaus_Brandenburg Level 2

                                                    I was refering to the "no more 3 versions back" policy. So upgrading to CS7 is kind of mandatory if I don't want to buy CS8 for full price, isn't it? Or was this only for the CS6 upgrade?