20 Replies Latest reply on Apr 1, 2013 10:35 AM by the_wine_snob

    Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?

    LaciG Level 1

      I created a 40 second clip with 6 layers of video plus one audio (as part of a larger project). The five layers are PIPs that are themselves have many motion and video effects. Building the clip, at one point the last motion effect stopped working. My solution was to export each of the 3 x 4 PIPs with all the effects (except the motion effects) as MPEG2 Blu-ray files (m2v) and using these clips I built the final clip (where I applied the motion effects: spinning in the PIPs, etc...). This approach worked.

       

      Questions:

      1. Is there "maximum complexity" of effects in PrPro CS5, or I still have some corrupted O.S. files, or corrupted registry?
      2. Working this way (until after I have done a clean O.S. install), would I degrade the quality of the Blu-ray project?
      3. I am also worried how "far" I have to go back: is it possible that the other sequences I use in the full project are also corrupted? (They play well in both   PrPro and Encore and can be transcoded.)

       

      I have been having some problems lately and eventually I have to start everything from the beginning.

      I would appreciate any comment, help.

       

      Best regards,

       

      Laci.

        • 1. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
          Jon-M-Spear Level 4

          CS6 has a reported 99 video track capability.  I'm unsure about max effects.

           

          Key to it all is the capability of your machine: memory, processor, GFX card etc - which you don't mention.

           

          Exporting sub-clips is a completely usual way to build up a complex edit.  I wouldn't export as a lossy codec, but as an intermediate one.  Perhaps uncompressed AVI, if you're PC based.

          • 2. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
            LaciG Level 1

            Thanks for the reply John-M-Spear!

             

            As for the PC:

            1. Mother Board: ASUS P6X68D Premium
            2. Processor: Intel Core i7 930
            3. Chipset: Intel X58 / ICH10R
            4. Memory: 12 GB
            5. Graphic Card:  AZUS GEFORCE ENGTX 480 (NVIDIA)
            6. Total hard disk capacity: 9 TB. (2x2 1 TB in RAID for Scratch and Export.)

             

            I would think it is good enough - but maybe I am mistaken. 

             

            More importantly, I have just found the way to set the export to "Uncompressed Microsoft AVI" with the original footage parameters (1920x1080, 29,97 fps, UFF, etc.) - first I just looked at the default settings that weren't the same.

             

            Some questions for the settings:

            1. Render at maximum depth?
            2. Use maximum render quality?
            3. Video CODEC: V210, or UYVY?
            4. Quality: 100?

             

             

            I would greatly appreciate your answers to these questions - this setting seems to be the one I would need.

             

            Thanks again,

             

            Laci.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
              SAFEHARBOR11 Most Valuable Participant

              Hi Laci,

               

              While "uncompressed" clips are the ultimate quality, if you are starting with camcorder clips, those are already extremely compressed so not a lot of advantage to going uncompressed, as that will create massive files and your hard drives will not be fast enough for smooth playback, and especially when layering multiple clips.

               

              Better to choose an intermediate format that is a "lossless" quality which will look great, but provide more manageable files.

               

              Some options are: Avid DnxHD codec, UT codec, Lagarith codec. All of those are free downloads.

               

              I've been using Matrox i/o hardware for many years, currently MXO2 Mini, and they have their own codec which is MPEG-2 I-Frame codec with 4:2:2 color at 100mbps. So it looks good, and plays back well. Also supports alpha channel if you need to render out overlays with transparent background. Available here - http://www.matrox.com/video/en/support/windows/vfw_software_codecs/downloads/softwares/ver sion1.0/build33/

               

              Matrox MPEG-2 I-Frame HD codec would be my choice for ease of use and editing playback performance.

               

              Regarding your PC hardware, I see you have the GTX 480 display card. I have the 470, which is officially supported by Adobe for Mercury GPU acceleration, while the 480 is not listed - http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/tech-specs.edu.html

               

              Are you aware of the simple "hack" that should enable Premiere to utilize your GPU to increase editing performance? There is a LOT of information at this link - http://www.studio1productions.com/Articles/PremiereCS5.htm

               

              Basically, in the Adobe/Premiere Pro folder there is a text file called "cuda_supported_cards.txt" and if you simply add your card to the list and save, or even rename/delete the .txt file completely, then your GTX 480 ought to get used. In Premiere, go to Project > Project Settings > General and look if it says "Software Only" or "GPU Acceleration".

               

              Hope this helps you

               

              Thank you

               

              Jeff Pulera

              Safe Harbor Computers

              • 4. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                LaciG Level 1

                Hi Jeff,

                 

                Thanks for the detailed answer. (Some of it went over my head: I am making only home movies in AVCHD format and mostly doing it since I retired from Intel 3 years ago - at 73 .)

                 

                I hope I can use one of the settings on the CS5 PrPro export window without going into all these codec issues. I have a setting I assume close to what you are suggesting. Format:  MPEG2, Codec: "MainConcept MPEG Video". I made a screen capture of the details I guessed to be appropriate for my purpose.

                 

                The size difference is really huge: the lossless AVI clip is 1.3 GB, the one with this settings is 15 MB. Since the original source - as I understand - is already pretty much compressed (AVCHD), your advice sounds very useful. My only question is: is this settings close to the one you are suggesting? (I would prefer to use what Adobe already built into this editing suite.)

                 

                As for the "hack": I built my computer as a retired physicist (but still a very beginner "videographer") following the Hardware Forum's advice (mainly Harm's guidance), so I am aware of this and use it - exactly as you are suggesting - except I didn't know that simply deleting the file would also do the trick. (Why wouldn't Adobe update this list? And why doesn't Adobe put some effort to improve Encore? These are rhetorical questions .)

                 

                If you are not using Adobe PrPro, you might not be familiar with all the export settings there. There might be some more suitable for AVCHD footages. If you need, I can make a list of the formats and presets available there.

                 

                Thank you again,

                 

                Laci.

                 

                 

                ExportSettings-1.PNGExportSettings-2.PNG

                • 5. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                  SAFEHARBOR11 Most Valuable Participant

                  Hi Laci,

                   

                  Something important to understand about codecs is "inter-frame" and "intra-frame" encoding.

                   

                  Inter-frame codecs are typically Long-GOP (Group of Pictures). There are just a few frames per second that actually contain all the data to rebuild a complete frame - the remaining frames have only partial image data and must pull from surrounding frames before and after to complete a frame (recording just the differences from frame to frame rather than full frames).

                   

                  This is good for delivery since it greatly reduces file sizes. Not so great for editing, and especially when the video needs to be encoded again for final export. If you use a lossy, over-compressed codec an an intermediate, and then compress again for final output, you are losing more quality.

                   

                  Your AVCHD source might be 24Mbps, but the MPEG-2 codec you selected is just 15Mbps...something has gone missing. If you want to use an MPEG-2 codec, at least use a CBR setting and turn up the data rate some. You can actually configure MPEG-2 at a decent rate of 100Mbps for HD if you want to go that route. Here are some settings to download - http://www.precomposed.com/hd2sd/ame_hd_mpeg2i_cs4.zip

                   

                  Intra-Frame codecs compress every frame individually, resulting in a higher quality and larger file size, yet far smaller than uncompressed. These formats also require less processing power for playback, since the computer doesn't have to look at and compute multiple frames to play back each single frame. DV is an inter-frame codec and is easy to play on any old computer. HDV is Long-GOP MPEG-2 and is harder to play back. AVCHD is harder yet because it is Long-GOP and H.264, so requires faster computers for smooth playback/editing.

                   

                  There is nothing weird or complicated about installing another codec. Download it, click installer, and it then appears in the list in AME. Adobe just doesn't supply a decent "intermediate" type of codec, they are better suited for delivery or uncompressed workflows.

                   

                  Thanks

                   

                  Jeff Pulera

                  Safe Harbor Computers

                  • 6. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                    SteveHoeg Adobe Employee

                    Premiere Pro does not have impose any limit on the number of tracks or effects.

                    • 7. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                      LaciG Level 1

                      Hi Jeff,

                       

                      I learned more about codecs from your post than I learned before. I will use some of your advice, mainly regarding codecs. My biggest problem at this point however is that in most cases, Encore loses the link to the transcoded files after it is saved, closed and opened again. That's why I tried to "simplify" the asset before transcoding in Encore. This apparently didn't work this time. I still must have some problem with my OS and/or the latest CS5 installation, and I have to do a clean Win 7 install. (That has been due for a long time - I have other quirks in the system - but apparently I can't postpone it for any longer.) These issues could have impose a "limit" on the effects on some of my clips - that's why I was asking about limits. I will try the codecs after the reinstallation and will report back.

                       

                      Thank you again,

                       

                      Laci.

                      • 8. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                        LaciG Level 1

                        Hi Steve, Thanks for your input, however it seems to contradict to one of the earlier reply about the limitations on the number of tracks in CS6. When you say "no limit" do you mean that there is no practical limit? Or, that the limit is imposed by the computer? Thanks again, Laci.

                        • 9. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                          joe bloe premiere Level 5

                          Even if the track limit is 99 as stated in post #1,

                          it may as well be unlimited.

                           

                          You will never in any practical use scenario need 99 video tracks.

                           

                          • 10. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                            SAFEHARBOR11 Most Valuable Participant

                            I said that DV was inter-frame, meant INTRA, sorry.

                             

                            About the original issue, are you using Dynamic Link to go from Premiere to Encore? A lot of folks have issues with that. I recommend using File > Export > Media and creating the "MPEG-2 for DVD" out of Media Encoder and then just Import those assets into Encore.

                             

                            Also, I believe there was a 5.0.3 update for Premiere and probably an update for Encore as well, are those apps up to date? Often fixes bugs of original release.

                             

                            Thanks

                             

                            Jeff

                            • 11. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                              LaciG Level 1

                              I am going to do the update (after the full reinstall of CS5 5.0 a week ago, I haven't updated it). Also, this morning, I used that single clip in MPEG format simply imported it into Encore (I think ADL works only with PrPro sequences). Everything worked fine until a couple of month ago (I didn't really do much this year), and opening old projects they seem to work, also. I will do some more checking and will let you know. Thank you very much for your help (I really need it now), Laci.

                              • 12. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                                LaciG Level 1

                                Joe, My actual problem with the limit was the number of video effects. But as I said, I have two problems: 1. Encore losing the link to the transcoded files in most cases, and 2. my "giant" clip stopped working properly after a large number of effects. Both of my problems could be caused by my slightly corrupted O.S. also. I have to do some more checking, and probably a clean reinstall. (Even if there is some theoretical limit, I am quite far from it, so the "No limit" sounds reasonable.) Thanks for your help again, Laci.

                                 

                                UPDATE:

                                Turned out that my timelines edited with PrPro in the 3 month prior to the full reinstallation of all Adobe products were corrupted in some way. When imported to Encore, they caused the loss of links to the transcoded files, the loss of rendered menus, etc. Using the original MTS files with the reinstalled CS5.03, it works flawlessly.

                                • 13. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                                  LaciG Level 1

                                  Hi Jeff,

                                   

                                  Now that I "solved" my software problem (at least I know I have corrupted edited timelines that I have to discard), I was trying to "install" (?) some of the codecs you referred to. (I am not sure if they are actually codecs: searching for the epr file extension, it is a setting for AME?) There is nowhere to click "installer", so I can't even proceed. Hours googling the Internet, I couldn't eve find any information as to "How to download and install codecs". I feel really bad that after building an editing workstation, installing storage controllers, using CS5, I have no idea how to install a codec. (I guess, I found out that codecs are installed to the O.S. and not the applications, but maybe I am mistaken.) Could you please, refer me to some literature that would teach me this? Sorry for these questions but I can't use your advise if I don't know the " how to" . (BTW, I visited the Safe Harbor Computers website: pretty impressive!)

                                   

                                  Thanks again, Laci.

                                  • 14. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                                    SAFEHARBOR11 Most Valuable Participant

                                    Hi Laci,

                                     

                                    If you download the Lagarith or UT codec, just run the installer or .exe. or whatever comes with, I don't recall, but it's like one click and done, nothing special you need to do. Run the installer and next time you go into AME and choose AVI as the format, you will then find the installed codec available as an option (under VIDEO tab > Video Codec).

                                     

                                    Note that when choosing Lagarith or UT or any codec in AME for export, you need to go to the Video tab and check that all the settings match the footage you are editing. For instance, if working with 1080i 29.97 clips, and you want to export the same, then must be set to 1920x1080, 29.97 frames, Upper Field First. Look under "Sequence > Sequence Settings" if unsure what the correct settings are for your video. This is of course only when creating an intermediate or master video clip. When project is done and you want to export to DVD or web or whatever, then choose appropriate settings which will likely not match the original.

                                     

                                    As for the MPEG settings, that link was not for a codec; MPEG-2 is already installed on the system. Rather, the .epr files are simply "presets" for Media Encoder to use to configure the output a certain way. In AME, in the Export Settings panel, two buttons to the right of the "Preset" setting, there is a button to "Import Presets". This is where you would import the .epr file, and that will add another preset to the choices for MPEG-2.

                                     

                                    I just Googled "What is a codec" and found a lot of good stuff, check it out.

                                     

                                    Thanks

                                     

                                    Jeff Pulera

                                    Safe Harbor Computers

                                    • 15. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                                      LaciG Level 1

                                      Hi Jeff, Thank you very much. I will download some codecs this week. My main question was what I do with the epr files and how I get them into PrPro. You answered them both. Thanks again, Laci.

                                      • 16. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                                        LaciG,

                                         

                                        For a bit more background on CODEC's, this article might be useful: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/546811?tstart=0

                                         

                                        Good luck,

                                         

                                        Hunt

                                        • 17. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                                          LaciG,

                                           

                                          Thank you very much. I will download some codecs this week.

                                          Just a little caveat here. Jeff has mentioned some particular CODEC's, and I agree with how useful those are. However, be just a little careful when downloading and installing CODEC's. I strongly recommend that one only download and install just the ones that they need. Some folk feel that having every possible CODEC is a good thing, but that can cause all sorts of problems. The same with nearly every CODEC "pack." They usually contain all sorts of "other stuff," and much of that is bad. Also, many will overwrite good, commercial CODEC's, with hacked, or reverse-engineered versions, that are seldom as good. That is one reason that Adobe "hides" the MainConcept CODEC's, that get installed with Premiere. Unfortunately, even if those do not get overwritten, their priority can be altered by a CODEC pack.

                                           

                                          When dealing with any CODEC pack, I only recommend a very few, such as from MicroSoft, AVID, MainConcept, BlackMagic, and a few others. CODEC packs, like K-Lite, should be avoided, unless the editor knows exactly what they are doing, and will accept the risk.

                                           

                                          Good luck,

                                           

                                          Hunt

                                          • 18. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                                            LaciG,

                                             

                                            As for EPR files, this was about all that I could find, and I cannot see how it would apply: http://filext.com/file-extension/EPR

                                             

                                            Hunt

                                            • 19. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                                              LaciG Level 1

                                              Hi Bill, Since the reinstalled CS5.03 works flawlessly (so far ) - I do not need and  am not intended to download any codec at this time. All the advice and information from Jeff and you are very useful however, if I need any new codec in the future. (Right now I am pretty busy to brush up on the basics of thermodynamics and electrodynamics that I am tutoring in and/or teaching at Folsom Lake College this semester as my part time job.) Thanks again, Laci.

                                              • 20. Re: Is There a Maximum Number of Effects One Can Use on a Clip?
                                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                "Working glawlessly," is a great thing!

                                                 

                                                Glad to hear that, and good luck,

                                                 

                                                Hunt