20 Replies Latest reply: Apr 4, 2013 11:18 AM by Joel Cherney RSS

    Both Chinese and English in running header

    Lars Bo Zhou Yi

      Hi-

      I have mixed Chinese and English in my book without any problems. However, I have one heading with both Chinese and English and the Chinese characters will not show in the running header, only crossed out squares.

      Got any ideas? Lars

        • 1. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
          Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

          Are you using a different font in the headers than you are elswhere? The crosse-out squares would indcate to me that there are no glyphs at those codepoints inthe current font.

          • 2. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
            Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

            I suppose the other half of the question is do you currently use the same font for both English and Chinese?

             

            Running headers using a variable (and I'm guessing about the use of a variable here). don't work quite the same way as running text. The variable itself is only a single character for formatting purposes, so it can only have a single format applied to the entire string inside the variable. The variable can carry different formatting from surrounding text in the header, but you cannot break the variable string itself or apply one set of formatting to some words and different formatting to others.

             

            One way to work around this limitiation is to use Running Header (Character Style) variables instead of Running Header (Paragraph Style) and to use several variables together, applying character styles in  the text to the different languages so they can be picked up independently and formatted independently in your header, but your paragraphs would have to have the same same pattern of language use in all the paragraphs you want to pick up for headers.

            • 3. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
              Lars Bo Zhou Yi

              Okay, I have removed my paragraph for the heading and changed it to two different character styles-one English and one Chinese in the master page.

              They show up  in the running header, but still with crossed boxes for Chinese.

              The Chinese characters show nicely in the header.

              I have even tried to put them in two different textboxes - still the same.

              Lars

              • 4. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                Are you using the same font in the heading where the Chinese shows and in the header where it doesn't?

                • 5. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                  Lars Bo Zhou Yi

                  I am using the same font and size LiSongPro 18p. I have also tried to clear overrides.

                  • 6. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                    Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                    Can you show me a screen capture of the the page that shows the Chinese text and the header with the boxes? Please select the Chinese portion of the header so it is highlighted and show the font field in the Control panel or Character panel, too. You can embed the image in your post using the camera icon on the web page like this:

                    CameraIcon.png

                    • 7. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                      Lars Bo Zhou Yi

                      Funny thing is that the Chinese characters show up nicely before the English in the TOC....

                      • 8. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                        Lars Bo Zhou Yi

                        Dump1.JPG

                        In fact, this is with both running header for paragraph and character styles - same result...

                        • 9. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                          Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                          I need to see the running header boxes highlighted and the font applied....

                          • 10. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                            Lars Bo Zhou Yi

                            Hope this is what you want

                            I have to go and will be back later this afternoon. Thanks!

                            Dump2.JPG

                            • 11. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                              Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                              Close, but not quite. I want to see the font you are using in that running header, so highlight the LiSong 18 character style variable and show the font field inthe panel again.

                               

                              Thanks.

                              • 12. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                                Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                I'll be offline for a bit, so no rush...

                                • 13. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                                  Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                  I'm back for a bit before I go out to walk the dog.

                                   

                                  I've been looking at the screen captures you provided, and I'm almost ceertain I know what the problem is. I don't have the LiSong font, though, so I'm not 100% sure.

                                   

                                  It looks to me like you are using a combination of the LiSong and Arno Pro, with your English text set in Arno Pro and the Chinese in LiSong. That's fine so far, it will probably also be OK if you are using LiSong for the English in the body text, too.

                                   

                                  In your running headers you've switched to an italic font, and, I think, therein lies the problem. I'm certainly not versed in typesetting Chinese, but my understanding is that there are no italics, and it looks to me like the entire running header is set in Arno Pro italic. Arno Pro does not have any Chinese glyphs, so you get the x-boxes. If you select the variable for the chines text and change the font to the LiSong I think they will go away and your correct glyphs will return.

                                   

                                  Also, it looks like you have the header repeating because you've got both the two character style variables and aparagraph style variable. You don't need the last one if you use the first two.

                                   

                                  And finally, and I probably should have mentioned this earlier, the character styles applied to this text don't necessarily need to do anything at all tothe formatting to work for defineing variables, as long as they have unique names. This allows you to name different parts of a paragraph without affecting the text in any way, but you can then apply separate formatting to your individual variables. In this particualr case, if I'm correct that you are using ArnoPro for the English and LiSong for the Chinese in the body text, it's probably appropriate to create a "Chinese" character style that includes the LiSong font (but not a size or color so you can apply it anywhere in your text and it will match the surrounding type except for the face), and an "English" style that is only a name.

                                  • 14. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                                    Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                    You mentiuoned earlier that the Chinese glyphs showed up correctly in your TOC. This would indicate that either you are using a font in the TOC that supports these glyphs, or that you've applied a character style in the headings that you picked up, or that you manually applied the formatting without a style by selecting the text and changing the font attributes. Your running header variable can pick up an assigned character style that is applied manually, by selecting text and applying the character style, or that is applied automatically through the use of a nested style or GREP style as part of your paragraph style definition.

                                     

                                    The method you use will have an impact on what happens in the TOC, so I'm going to talk about that a bit, too. TOC picks up entire paragraphs based on the pargraph style applied to them. In the TOC itself you can continue to use that same paragraph style for your listings, or you can choose a new style so your listings are 10 pt regular, for example, even if the headings that you've picked up are 18 pt bold with a rule below.

                                     

                                    Nested styles will not carry through in the TOC if you define new paragraph styles for the listings unless you also add them to the new paragraph style definitions, but manually applied character styles, or local formatting overrides will carry over. You may need to adjust the paragraph style defintions that you are using to format the TOC if you use nested styles to trigger your variables for the running headers. The good news is that if you took my suggestion to herat and the only thing your Chinese character style does is change the face, you can use exactly the same style nesting in the TOC aas you used in the heading paragagraph style.

                                    • 15. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                                      peter at knowhowpro Community Member

                                      Peter Spier wrote:

                                       

                                      I'm back for a bit before I go out to walk the dog.

                                      Isn't there a script for this?

                                       

                                       

                                      Regards,

                                       

                                       

                                      Peter

                                      _______________________

                                      Peter Gold

                                      • 16. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                                        Lars Bo Zhou Yi

                                        Now I have removed all English from the headline and left the pure Chinese and then created a new paragraph style with no italics or other tricks - still no luck.

                                        Please see the dumps and how it works in the TOC.TOC style.JPG

                                        LiSongPro18Header.JPG

                                        OnlyChineseHeader.JPG

                                        • 17. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                                          Joel Cherney MVP

                                          Maybe this is obvious, but: you've applied a paragraph style to that running head, right? The variable picks up the first use of LiSongPro18Header, but you need to select the running head with the text tool and mark it with a parastyle (or character style) that has Chinese glyphs.

                                          • 18. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                                            Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                            Your last group of screen shot doesn't mean much since we don't know where they are applied (or if there are additional character styles or local overrides applied as well).

                                             

                                            I get the sense that you are having trouble grasping what I've been trying to say (and Joel is echoing) about styles and how to apply them, though maybe you don't realize that you are not really understanding. Would you be willing to share the file with me? I can do some markup on it and send it back to help explain what is happening.

                                            • 19. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                                              Lars Bo Zhou Yi

                                              It works now! Thats nice and I can do it myself later. However, I am am not sure exactly why it is necessary to mark the Chinese running header with chara-style when I never had to mark other, English, running headers this way and the Chinese in the TOC works fine. But thanks for the explanations, I'm still learning

                                              • 20. Re: Both Chinese and English in running header
                                                Joel Cherney MVP

                                                I am am not sure exactly why it is necessary to mark the Chinese running header with chara-style when I never had to mark other, English, running headers this way

                                                Well, let's look at the way you make a running header. You define the variable first, right? Once the variable is defined, you then draw a new text frame and insert the variable. This is no different from drawing a new text frame and inserting the letter Q - that letter will have the styling information (font, etc.) of whatever paragraph style is defined as your default paragraph style for new text frames, right? If you draw a brand-new text frame, what font is selected? Does it support Chinese? From InDesign's point of view, that entire running header and that letter Q are identical - they are text, they're both a single character, and they are rendered in whatever font happens to be active in that text frame.

                                                 

                                                and the Chinese in the TOC works fine

                                                 

                                                The text that the TOC tool pulls in can have paragraph styles automatically applied retains character styles and local formatting/overrides, but the text that variables pull in does not retain such formatting. That's why the TOC works fine without addional styling or formatting, but the variables do need such styling applied.