12 Replies Latest reply: Apr 13, 2013 3:06 PM by Peter Spier RSS

    Display pages individually

    Wildflower123 Community Member

      InDesign displays pages side by side when the intent is to print as a book, with page numbers adjusted left or right depending on even or odd-numbered page. This presents a problem with bleeds, however. Is it possible to display pages individually, even though there will be facing pages in the printed book, so bleeds can be set on each page all around?

        • 2. Re: Display pages individually
          Wildflower123 Community Member

          Good point. No, I guess not. I figured out that in the Document Setup I should specify "facing pages" and set bleeds for the top, bottom, and outside, but NOT inside. This should avoid a previous problem of bleeding images onto an adjoining page; i.e.,. I imagine that if an image overlaps the inside edge a little, it won't bleed onto the adjoining page.

          • 3. Re: Display pages individually
            bobreid Community Member

            I have a  print vendor that I am working with that requires bleeds at the spine (especially for coil bound books).

             

            It seems to me to be a glaring oversight that the current bleed settings cause art to print onto the facing page when it is RIP'ed.

             

            Why there isn't an easy way to show and hide the spine bleed so that the page elements could be pulled into bleed to meet a printer's requirement is beyond me.

            • 4. Re: Display pages individually
              Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

              Seems to me that the information in the link is pretty straightforward.

               

              But beyond that, how are you setting up the page width? Does it include the drilled area for the coil binding?

               

              Also, how many pages are actually affected? The only time this is an issue is if there is art that abuts the spine that does not actually cross over. As long as the bleed allowance at the spine is blank, or a continuation of the opposite page artwork, there is no problem.

              • 5. Re: Display pages individually
                Wildflower123 Community Member

                Continuing with my comment of April 6: In InDesign I specified bleeds for top, bottom, and outside. When viewed in "normal" mode, a red border indicating the bleed area is seen around the top, bottom, and outisde edges, but not the inside edges. Images are cut off on the inside (spine); even when I TRY to make an image spill onto the adjoining page, I can't. When viewed in "preview" mode, the pages appear as intended to the size specified without bleeds. I agree with Bob that InDesign should have a facility for bleeding at the spine, but they don't. Even for coil bound books, where one doesn't want content where the holes would be, bleeding might be good where a whole page is to have a background color or image.

                 

                The printer of my book, CreateSpace, has rather poor instructions for telling authors how to allow for bleeds: they suggest just making the document larger, which is a poor way of doing it since that messes up the visual analysis of the document. But that's not Adobe's fault.

                 

                Anyway, I am happy with Peter's advice and the way my book, "How to Draw Monsters and Aliens", is turning out.

                • 6. Re: Display pages individually
                  Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                  Wildflower123 wrote:

                  even when I TRY to make an image spill onto the adjoining page, I can't.

                  I don't understand what you are trying to say here...

                   

                  I'm not quite sure, either, how you and Bob think an inside bleed should work. If you extend art across the spine to as bleed for one page there is no way ID is going to know that you don't intend that art to appear on the other page as well. Unless you split the spread as described the bleed IS the edge of the opposite page. I don't, personally, think adding a pair of guides at the gutter would be very helpful.

                  • 7. Re: Display pages individually
                    Wildflower123 Community Member

                    What I am saying is now that I understand the process I am happy with not attempting to bleed on the spine edge. I was confused at first. (InDesign seems to regard spreads as one sheet with pages on either side; i.e., a spread with two 8.5 x 11 pages would be 11 x 17. But this is all academic and perhaps not correct.) As far as I am concerned, the problem has been solved, and I very much appreciate your feedback, Peter.

                     

                    By the way, I was wrong to suggest that CreateSpace suggested bleeds all around; they suggest bleeds on the top, bottom, and outside edges only.

                    • 8. Re: Display pages individually
                      bobreid Community Member

                      The information in the link is quite clear. I am speaking to how the application represents bleed at the spine as overlapping onto the facing page.

                       

                      The bleed setting could automatically cut any crossovers, or show bleeds on all sides of each page when bleed is included in preview mode, or something akin to this. As it exists right now, bleed at the spine when pages are butted is ineffective and tedious.

                       

                      To answer your question, the pages are set up to trim width. This allows our design team to lay in their art and intent more intuitively. In this project's case, the book itself is perfect bound, and the vendor is requesting bleeds in the spine for grind-off.

                       

                      All of the pages in the book are affected, ie, have bleed elements at both left and right edges.

                      • 9. Re: Display pages individually
                        Michael Gianino Community Member

                        You might be more comfortable starting with a non-facing page document. That way, you could set your bleed for all four sides without having to split facing spreads.

                        bobreid wrote:

                         

                        The bleed setting could automatically cut any crossovers…

                        If you stop the bleed where it crosses the spine, it isn't a bleed any longer, and you can already do that. You can also use facing pages and increase the width of your page to include a bleed area at the spine and make crop marks in the bleed area instead of using automatic crops.

                        • 10. Re: Display pages individually
                          Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                          bobreid wrote:

                           

                          All of the pages in the book are affected, ie, have bleed elements at both left and right edges.

                          That may be a very difficult book to read. I hope there's nothing of importance that bleeds into the spine because odds are your readers won't be able to actually see it without breaking the binding. And what goes into the grind-off is cut away, so it really doesn't matter.

                           

                          But maybe your inside bleed elements are crossovers of some sort. That's fine, and you needn't do anything special to handle that.

                           

                          Remember that bleed is color that extends beyond the page edge, and what is beyond the page edge at the spine on a spread is the opposite page. There are basically three cases for what can happen at the spine, and I've made three screen captures to illustrate them. I've included manually placed guides to show the inside bleeds.

                           

                          Case 1: There is no content of any sort in the inner margin (or you have some sort of uniform background color):

                          Inside Bleed-1.png

                          Case 2: Similar to case 1, but there is some sort of non-uniform cross-over, such as a photo, or in this case a crummy illustration:

                          Inside Bleed-2.png

                          Case 3: There is an actual hard color break at the spine with elements that do not cross over:

                          Inside Bleed-3.png

                           

                          I hope you can see that in cases 1 & 2 you actually want what is on the opposite page in the blled area to be used as the bleed for each page, and that only case 3 requires that the spread be split to accomodate an inside bleed.

                          • 11. Re: Display pages individually
                            Wildflower123 Community Member

                            Although I am happy with the way my InDesign documents are set up, I thought I'd add my two cents' worth:

                             

                            It seems to me that you, Bob, could specify bleeds for the top, bottom, and outside edges in InDesign. You could have, for example, a solid color background extend into the bleed areas of the top, bottom, and outside edges, but only to the spine on the inside edge. Included is a screenshot from my book where I did just that, as you can see on the right page where the blue background extends into the bleed areas but not beyond the spine. Although I haven't yet received a physical copy of the book, it looks fine on the vendor's "digital proofer". (A very minor risk would be that a thin white line would appear on the inside in the printed book, but it won't be seen by the reader due to the way the pages come together at the spine.)

                            Screen shot.jpg

                            I understand your vendor insists on bleeds all around. You could probably do that as long as you don't have any content in the inside bleed areas. I assume my vendor, CreateSpace, prints on paper larger than the 8.5 x 11 finished size and also prints pages separately, then trims to size. Your vendor will probably do the same. In summary, It's probably best with InDesign to not attempt to create an inside bleed and not have any content that might spill onto an adjoining page with the assumption it will be trimmed off.

                             

                            I also think it's best to NOT try to have individual, non-facing pages in the document. I don't believe InDesign can do that while maintaining odd and even page number orientation; and besides it's better for the designer to view page spreads to get an idea of what the document will look like. In the future, Adobe will likely make it possible to have inside bleeds while maintaining the two-page spread look and not have content spill onto adjoining pages. But that does not appear to be the case at the moment.

                             

                            A minor point: The blue block in Peter's Case #3 does not appear to go into the bleed areas on the top, bottom, and outer edges. The reader would almost certainly see a thin white border at one or more of those edges in the printed document. Neither the blue or orange blocks would spill onto the adjoining pages to any significant degree, though, and that's a good thing!

                             

                            Good luck!

                            • 12. Re: Display pages individually
                              Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                              Wildflower123 wrote:

                              A minor point: The blue block in Peter's Case #3 does not appear to go into the bleed areas on the top, bottom, and outer edges. The reader would almost certainly see a thin white border at one or more of those edges in the printed document. Neither the blue or orange blocks would spill onto the adjoining pages to any significant degree, though, and that's a good thing!

                               

                              You caught me. I wasn't really worried about the outer edge bleeds in my examples, but of course that Cyan background should extend to the bleed guides all around for printing.