11 Replies Latest reply on Apr 27, 2013 11:05 AM by the_wine_snob

    Audio/Video fall out of sync as I edit files


      Hello all,


      I'm used to using older editors like MPEGstreamclip so I'm grounded in the basic concepts of editing files.  All my material comes to me from a TiVo via KMTTG which decodes my shows and movies and spits them out as HD quality (when possible) MPEG files to retain as much quality as possible.


      I'm having a problem with the files rapidly losing A/V sync as I edit out commercials and leading and trailing edges of other shows from the clips.


      I always start out checking the finished MPEG file from KMTTG to make sure everything lines up by playing it in VLC or Quicktime.  I've yet to encounter any problems there.


      I play the file as-is in Adobe PE 11 QE prior to editing and it is fine.  There isn't any lag or A/V sync issues.  Then I trim out the leading edge of the file to remove the first couple of seconds and the trouble starts.  Within a few minutes inside the file, the A/V sync is already becoming noticable.  By the time I trim the first commercial break and check the work, the audio lags by minutes behind the video and it only gets worse as I approach the end of the file.


      The first time I noticed this, I tried rendering the file as normal and checking it afterwards, thinking the preview was giving me spurious feedback, but it turned out to be accurate.


      I tried having KMTTG export the decrypted TiVo files as MP4 but it is still the same issue.


      I'm currently running Adobe PE 11 QE on a mid-2011 Mac Mini 2.3 GHz Intel i5 Core with 8 Gig of ram on OS 10.8.3 Mountain Lion.


      Are there any obvious steps I've overlooked?  Everytime I think I've got a pretty firm grasp of things is about the time I royally screw something up due to being overconfident.

        • 1. Re: Audio/Video fall out of sync as I edit files
          Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

          Are you saying that you're using MPEG Streamclip to convert your files before you bring them into Premiere Elements? Which settings are you using for your conversion? What type of file are you outputting?


          What happens if you just use the Tivo file directly in Premiere Elements?


          What do you plan to do with your finished video? Create a DVD? BluRay? Upload to YouTube?

          • 2. Re: Audio/Video fall out of sync as I edit files
            John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            >just use the Tivo file directly


            Not 100% sure, but I don't think that is possible


            I do know that the DirecTV version of Tivo encrypts the files, so the only way to get an external file for computer edit is to play the video through a converter


            Again, not sure of this, but a non-DirecTV Tivo MAY also record files in a format that my not be directly edited

            • 3. Re: Audio/Video fall out of sync as I edit files
              the_wine_snob Level 9

              John T.,


              You are probably correct, regarding the encryptation.


              I have only used DirectTV material, from way back when, and it was SD material. In those cases, the files were Captured from the DirectTV DVR via Canopus unit, directly, to DV AVI Type II (no encryptation back then), and edited smoothly in PrPro. Those files were cooking shows, where the client's wife appeared, and were assembled for her "show reel."


              Client brought over a later DirectTV DVR (HD by that time), but the files were encrypted. Rather than fight that encryptation, I just called the two TV stations, and got a DVD of the shows. Those Imported (the VOB's) into PrE, and edited pretty well. I needed to adjust the sync (common issue with some VOB's), but it was not that tough. I used the "dynamic OOS" workflow in this FAQ Entry: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/436751?tstart=0



              • 4. Re: Audio/Video fall out of sync as I edit files
                jerry7171 Level 1

                Hello Steve,


                my workflow is to use an open source software called KMTTG on my Mac Mini to talk to my TiVo and choose what movies or shows to download. KMTTG can then pull the encrypted files from TiVo, decrypt them and output them in nearly any QuickTime format I want.


                I previously used MPEGstreamclipper in the past for removing commercials and creating a new MPEG file which I'd then run through Handbrake to output a final MP4 or H264 file.


                The ultimate goal is to create small files with good detail and resolution to store inside a HD to access via freeware PLEX which gives me a great Netflix style experience but only with things that I want to keep for the future.


                I can't give you the precise specs as my area suffered an Internet and power outage, so I'm posting via my iPhone for now.

                • 5. Re: Audio/Video fall out of sync as I edit files
                  Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                  Clearly the third-party KMTTG software is the wild card here and is most likely at the root of your problem.


                  But it's hard to say without knowing what the program is doing to your DVR files.


                  Open one of its video files in Media Info and list the specs. We're most interested in its format, resoltion, codecs, frame rate and sampling rate.


                  • 6. Re: Audio/Video fall out of sync as I edit files
                    jerry7171 Level 1

                    Hi Steve,


                    Here are the specs as requested:


                    TYPE: MPEG movie

                    IMAGE SIZE: 528 x 480

                    FRAME RATE: 29.97

                    SOURCE AUDIO FORMAT: 48000 Hz - compressed - stereo

                    PROJECT AUDIO FORMAT: 32 bit floating point - stereo

                    TOTAL DURATION: 00:59:15:12

                    AVERAGE DATA RATE: 317 KB/sec

                    PIXEL ASPECT RATIO: 1.2121


                    Hopefully this info about the output file from TiVo via KMTTG will aid in figuring out what is causing the severe audio lag.

                    • 7. Re: Audio/Video fall out of sync as I edit files
                      Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                      The non-standard dimensions are likely at the core of your problems. As I said, DVR video that's been run through a third-party program is pretty likely to cause problems for Premiere Elements.


                      I have no solution, other than to use KMTTG to edit the video, if that's possible, and leave Premiere Elements out of the workflow completely. But maybe someone else who's worked with this program will have a solution.

                      • 8. Re: Audio/Video fall out of sync as I edit files
                        jerry7171 Level 1

                        Hello Steve,


                        Curiosity got the better of me and I tried a different file again.  This time I zeroed in on a television show that I knew should work properly.  Here are the specs for it:


                        FILE TYPE: MPEG movie

                        FILE SIZE: 5.2 GB

                        IMAGE SIZE: 1920 x 1080

                        FRAME RATE: 29.97

                        SOURCE AUDIO FORMAT: 48000 Hz - compressed - 6 channels

                        PROJECT AUDIO FORMAT: 48000 Hz - 32 bit floating point - 6 channels

                        TOTAL DURATION: 01:01:46:16

                        AVERAGE DATA RATE: 1.6 Mb/sec

                        PIXEL ASPECT RATIO: 1.0


                        After beginning editing to remove the first 60 seconds of the recording, a tiny but creeping lag between the audio and video began.  By the time I had removed the first commercial block, it was back with a vengeance.


                        Unfortunately, as Adobe PE 11 QE is just about all there is out there at this time that actually works (sort of), I'm pretty well stuck.  KMTTG is only a decoder for the TiVo files.  My previous editor MPEG Streamclipper had been chugging along until an update in the OS.  After that, I could open it but only listen to the audio.  The display area went white, rendering it useless.  Toast Titanium is not an option either.  It is all pretty GUI but it locks up if I throw anything HD at it.


                        I don't know about anyone else, but I'm all out of ideas now.  I have a terabyte half-full of unedited stuff.

                        • 9. Re: Audio/Video fall out of sync as I edit files
                          Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                          Have you tried iMovie?

                          • 10. Re: Audio/Video fall out of sync as I edit files
                            jerry7171 Level 1

                            Hello Steve,


                            I got fairly busy for a stretch after your last response but I think I may have blundered into my own solution.


                            First, some background to lay the groundwork.


                            KMTTG is an opensource software and pretty much the only game in town for people who use TiVo and decide they want to archive a television show or movie from it.  It is one of those rather byzantine pieces of software that works really well once you have messed with it for a while and fiddled with the settings.  There is documentation, but it is written more towards the advanced user who has a working knowledge of basics for video like demuxing, etc.


                            The monkey wrench that fouled up Adobe Premeire 11 Quick Editor was a setting in KMTTG.  The MPEG or MP4 files KMTTG created after decrypting the media pulled from the TiVo device were still very playable in any player -- with the proviso that the media NOT be edited.  Otherwise there would be the resulting problems.


                            I was combing very studiously through the support documentation when I came across a setting called "QS."  Without going into too much detail, checking the box for QS will tell KMTTG to comb through the media file a final time and do any corrections as needed to the audio/video sync.  It adds time to the decryption and rendering but in the end, it spits out a file ready to be sliced and diced in Adobe P 11 QE without any audio sync problems or other gremlins.


                            So there you have it.


                            I don't know if this is something that you or anyone else will find especially useful or worthwhile posting where other Mac users with a TiVo/KMTTG workflow will find it but I wanted to let anyone following know that it wasn't Adobe's fault in the end.


                            Oh yes, iMovie... I have that by default since it came preloaded on my Mac Mini when I purchased it new in 2011.  I never tried using it until just before Christmas when I purchased my TiVo and needed something to edit out all those commercials in the television shows I was recording and wanted to keep.  I didn't delve too much into it but I just recall feeling like I was being patronized by the software, then I was enraged when it told me that I had no choice but to let it grind along for roughly 10+ hours to edit a 30 minute show because it insisted that the raw media had to be in a special format or codec favored by Apple.  Hence, I dumped iMovie faster than a hot potato and never looked back.


                            I like Apple, don't get me wrong, but it seriously got iMovie all wrong.

                            • 11. Re: Audio/Video fall out of sync as I edit files
                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                              I think that this information will be useful to Mac-users, who are using KMTTG to rip TiVo material. I believe that they will be thankful to knowing about that setting.


                              Thank you,