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1. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
Rallymax-forum Apr 15, 2013 10:31 AM (in response to EdwurdAdam)BD-R Single layer 25GB (23.3GiB)
BD-R Dual layer 50GB (46.6GiB)
BD-RE Single layer REwriteable 25 GB (23.3GiB)
BD-RE Dual layer REwriteable 50GB (46.6GiB)
BD-XL Triple layer 100GB (93.1GiB)
BD-XL Quadruple layer 128GB (119.2GiB)
So for a single layer BR-R you can burn 25G BITS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#BD9_and_BD5
25G BITS is 4.7Gbytes - this is called a "BD5".
Dual layer is 9Gbytes (BD9).
So, yes 15Gbytes is too big.
As for target and maximum.
The Bluray standard allows for up to 40Mbits per second at Level 4.1.
So,
If you want to encode and have it fit make the target bitrate a little smaller than the size of the disk (eg 4.0Gbytes) so that there is room for audio and the menus and set the Maximum to 40Mbps so that when you have a suddent need for bits - eg a point in the film that has a sudden lot of action - it has the headroom.
2:30:00 project = 120+30 min = 150min.
4Gbytes = 20Gbits.
20Gbits / 150min = 133Mbits/minute = 2.2Mbps/second.
That's quite low for h.264.
So, I recommend you target burning to a BD9.
Thus...
8.5Gbytes for video = 68Gbits.
68Gbits / 150min = 453Mbits/min = 7.5Mbps.
So, set your target to 7.5Mbps, your max to a reasonable head room above that - say 15Mbps and you should be good.
Make sure you output in Level 4.1.
blantent plug.... since you have a size/quality problem you may want to encode with a more efficient encoder like (3rd party) x264pro.
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2. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
EdwurdAdam Apr 15, 2013 11:22 AM (in response to Rallymax-forum)Hi,
Thnaks for al the info.
I am going to encode my 2 hour and 40 minute project (a wedding) from Premiere Pro at the following settings:
1440 x 1080i
Format -- H.264 Blu Ray
Pre-set - Custom
Video:
Field Order = Upper
Pixel Aspect Ratio = Widescreen 16:9
Profile = High
Level = 4.1
Bitrate Encoding = VBR 2 Pass
Bit Rate Level = Custom
Target Bit Rate = 7.5
Max Bit Rate = 15
Estimated File Size says = 8945 MB This is equal to - 8.753 GB
I hope this looks good to you. I'm going to try it and see how many GB it really comes out to be and how it looks.
If I did anything wrong, please e-mail me with any other suggestions.
Thank You and I will let you know how it works out.
Thanks
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3. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
Rallymax-forum Apr 15, 2013 11:40 AM (in response to EdwurdAdam)I don't think the Estimated File Size is base1024. I think it's in base1000. So the total size will be 8.9GBytes.
Also, work out your audio bit budget too..
Dolby AC-3 is encoded at a rate of say 512kbps * 60 sec/min * 150min = 4.6GBits = 576Mbytes
I'd set the video to 8GBytes to be on the safe side of fitting in the menus etc.
aside: precomposed.com has some awesome off the shelf wedding menus if you haven't discovered them.
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4. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
SAFEHARBOR11 Apr 15, 2013 1:11 PM (in response to Rallymax-forum)I'm curious, since a blank Blu-ray holds 25GB, why do you want to limit the final size to 15GB, and then later 8GB? Why not use the space available on the disc? Did I miss something? Should be able to encode at 18 or 19 and fit your 160 minutes on one BD-R. Think of "Target bitrate" as the AVERAGE bitrate. Or just encode as CBR.
Oh, I see what happend, Rallymax is messing with your head with bits and bytes. Just use a bitrate calculator like this one - http://dvd-hq.info/bitrate_calculator.php
or Google "Blu-ray bitrate calculator" and just plug in the numbers to get a result. By the way, Dolby stereo is usually 192 or 224, not 512.
Thanks
Jeff
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5. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
Rallymax-forum Apr 15, 2013 1:11 PM (in response to Rallymax-forum)btw. I totally had brain fade.
BD9 and BD5 are hacks by using a DVD as the media.
And I mixed up bits and bytes.
Single layer Bluray has 25GBytes.
So you can encode 25Gbytes/150min*60seconds/min = 2.7Mbps * 8bits/byte = 22Mbits/second combined maximum
Dual layer Bluray has 50GBytes.
So you can encode 50Gbytes/150min*60seconds/min = 5.5Mbps * 8 = 44Mbits/second
So encode at 4.8Mpbs for the video, giving you 512kbps for AC-3 + some head room.
Target = 39Mbps (40 is the bluray max - give some headroom)
Max = 40Mbps.
sorry for the bad advice.
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6. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
Rallymax-forum Apr 15, 2013 1:13 PM (in response to SAFEHARBOR11)SAFEHARBOR11 wrote:
I'm curious, since a blank Blu-ray holds 25GB, why do you want to limit the final size to 15GB, and then later 8GB? Why not use the space available on the disc? Did I miss something? Should be able to encode at 18 or 19 and fit your 160 minutes on one BD-R. Think of "Target bitrate" as the AVERAGE bitrate. Or just encode as CBR.
Oh, I see what happend, Rallymax is messing with your head with bits and bytes. Just use a bitrate calculator like this one - http://dvd-hq.info/bitrate_calculator.php
or Google "Blu-ray bitrate calculator" and just plug in the numbers to get a result. By the way, Dolby stereo is usually 192 or 224, not 512.
Thanks
Jeff
yep and I totally brain fades with BD5 and BD9 in my head. I have no idea where that came from.
sorry guys.
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7. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
EdwurdAdam Apr 15, 2013 2:37 PM (in response to Rallymax-forum)Hi,
Thanks for all of your input,
Firstly. the reason I only need 15 GB is because I have built a menu in Encore that consists of 24 Quicktime Movies, 30 seconds eaach, that will be playing in all 24 of my Chapter buttons. This is taking up about 7 GB.
So I wanted to make sure my finished 2 and a half job did not go over 15 GB so it would fit with my menus in Encore.
I tried encoding with CBR yesterday and I set it up and the estimated file size in Media Encoder said it was going to be 15 GB. I then encoded it and when it was done, it came out to be 23 GB. It was way off.
Right now I am encoding it again at
H.264 Blu-Ray
VBR 2 Pass
Target Bit Rate = 7.5
Max Bit Rate = 15
The file size says it's going to come out at almost 9 GB. I am curious to see if it comes out to be 15 because of what happened yesterday when I encoded it with CBR.
If it does come out to be 9GB like it says, than I am going to have to raise the Target Bit Rate and the Max Bit Rate so it does come out to be around 15GB.
Any suggestions on what I should put my Target and Max Bit Rate to accomplish that?
Thanks Again everyone.
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8. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
SAFEHARBOR11 Apr 16, 2013 6:48 AM (in response to EdwurdAdam)I'm sorry, but you are not understanding how this all works. You're allowing 7GB for your QuickTime menu movies, but in fact those clips are NOT going to be used "as is" - they are going to be built into the menus as thumbnail videos and the menus will then be compressed using H.264. You could be looking at far less than 1GB of space used on the disc, not 7GB. The QuickTime movies will not be found anywhere on the final disc in their original form or size. Any video used in the Encore project that is not a "Blu-ray compliant" format will be transcoded (re-compressed).
Let's say you have the 24 menu buttons spread over 3 screens. The clips are 30 seconds right? So that is really 90 seconds total for the 3 screens, assuming the menu screens just loop. Forget that there are 24 "videos" being used as sources. You will be combining 8 of them on each menu screen, so in essence, the 7GB of source material is going to be compressed down to just 90 seconds total of video in the H.264 format. That takes very very little space.
Also, your 7.5 Target Bitrate is way too low - that is the rate that one would use for DVD, which is standard def - not enough bandwidth for HD video. It would look very poor.
Whether encoding for DVD or Blu-ray, the idea is to always use the highest possible bitrate that will allow the material to fit the disc. You basically want to fill up the disc and not have a bunch of empty space. If there is space left over, you could have encoded at a higher quality then! Only if the video is short, then you would not fill the disc since there are limits to the maximum data rate allowed.
I would try encoding the main video at 18 Target, and maybe 25 max on the VBR settings. I hope this starts to make sense. I understand there is a lot to learn and it doesn't happen automatically, there is a curve.
Thanks
Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor Computers
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9. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
EdwurdAdam Apr 16, 2013 7:22 AM (in response to SAFEHARBOR11)Hi Jeff,
I have 6 Pages of sub-menus each with 4 Animated buttons on them. A 30 second QT Time movie will be playing in them looping. That equals 24, 30 QT movies in all.
I also have a Spcial Features Menu (Which will be playing one 30 Second QT in an animated button)
I also have a Pop Up Menu and a Main Menu that have no QT movies playing in them (Just Buttons and Text)
Right now when I go to the "Bulld Tab" it says it's using 7.1 GB of space. This is just the menus I have described.
So, You are saying that just because it says 7.1 GB, it's not really going to be that big after building? It will be compressed down a lot when I press Build and it creates my Blu-Ray DVD?
My main project is 2 and a half hours long. So when I Encode it Media Encoder I can set my Target Bit Rate at 18 and my Max at around 25?
I know this will be a big file. When I bring it into Encore I know that it will say that it is over 25 GB total for the project due to the Encore menus and the Encoded 2 and a half hour project.
I should jut go ahead and build it anyway?
Will it tell me at some point if the project is too big and cannot burn it?
Thanks in advance
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10. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
SAFEHARBOR11 Apr 16, 2013 7:39 AM (in response to EdwurdAdam)Hi Edwurd,
To put the space thing in perspective, if you were editing in Premiere and you combined several videos using Picture-in-Picture, and then Exported to a new clip using a more compressed codec, you then have ONE clip, much smaller than any one of the original clips. This is the same thing in Encore. If you have 4 videos on each page, Encore is basically going to take those QuickTime source clips and combine them all into the menu page, which it will then encode as a single video clip. Plus, it will use H.264 compression which will be much smaller than any QuickTime source files. So the original source videos are not used in the final encode, just the "composite" of them is saved.
So six of the 30-second menus is 180 seconds, so total space used would be 3 minutes of H.264 compressed video, versus 12 minutes of original (large) QuickTime files.
I don't know why the Build tab shows 7GB, that doesn't sound right. What you could do is "Build to Folder" and this just puts a file on the hard drive rather than burning a disc, then you can simply see how big the resulting file folder is, as a test.
Jeff
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11. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
EdwurdAdam Apr 16, 2013 10:55 AM (in response to SAFEHARBOR11)Hi Jeff,
I just started to build just my menus with my QT files inside of them as a "Build to Folder."
I think I know why it's saying 7.1 GB used.
Since the menus in Encore stop and loop after 30 seconds, I did not like that.
I like to play a full song on each menu and then when the song ends, it starts again. If I did that on a standard 30 second menu in Encore, the song would stop every 30 seconds and start again. This was not acceptable to me.
This does not happen in DVD Studio Pro. In DVD Studio Pro, I can put in a full song with Videos in Video Zones, change the loop time to the length of that song, and the menu would play that song, and loop again when it was over.
I wanted to do this in Encore, so I had to make the menus a little longer than the song I wanted to put in them. I did that.
1) I went into After Effects with the background of the menu I wanted to use.
2) It comes in as a .psd file.
3) I then stretched it out to a length a little longer than the song. (For exaample, I'm using a song that is 4 minutes and 50 seconds, so I stretched out the background of that menu to 5 Minutes.)
4) I then rendered out that newly made 5 minute menu out of After Effects, using H.264 1440 x 1080i, 29.97 High Quality.
5) I then brought that newly made 5 minute background back into Encore and placed it over the original 30 second background in Encore.
6) Now the song and the videos inside the "Video Drop Zones" will loop until the song is over, stop, then the song will start again and the videos keep on looping. Just like in DVD Studio Pro
For this particular job I did this 6 times (1 for each sub-menu) depending on the length of the song I am using for each menu.
1) The first sub-menu is a 5 minute menu which, when rendered in After Effects, came out to be 1.5 GB Big
2) The second menu is a 4 minute menu which came out to be 1.2 GB
3) The third is a 4 and a half minute menu which is 1.35 GB
4) The fourth is a 3 and a half minute menu which is 1.05 GB
5) The fifth menu is another 4 minute menu which is 1.2.GB
6) The sixth menu is a 7 minute menu which is 2.1 GB.
When you add them up it actually comes out to be 8.4 GB just the menus without any videos in them.
So Encore has already compressed them down a little.
It's not the videos that are taking up much space, but these menus.
Since I am building my job in Encore to a folder, I want to see what the actual size comes out to be after it's compressd. This will give me an idea of how big I can make my 2 and a half hour wedding. The Target and Max Bit rate.
I hope that sheds some light on why Encore is saying that the menus and QT files are taking up 7.1 GB already.
I wish there was another way that I can have my menus play for the length of any song without having to go into After Effects and stretch each menu to accomodate the length of a particular song. This takes up a lot of space, but it's the way I like to make my menus.
Thanks again
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12. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
SAFEHARBOR11 Apr 16, 2013 11:11 AM (in response to EdwurdAdam)Hi Edwurd,
I can't tell you how to author your project, that is entirely up to your discretion, but I can present some thoughts and you can make your own decision.
Any time you are working with a very long video, whether for DVD or Blu-ray, disc space becomes very precious. Since the video is longer, it must be compressed at a lower data rate (lower quality) to fit the disc. You want to keep the data rate as high as possible to maximize quality. That usually means taking up as little space as possible for the menus. The larger the menus, the smaller the main video must be.
While I don't believe that Encore is going to use up 7 or 8GB for the menus - it should be transcoding your clips behind the scenes - I still think it is imprudent to have 5-minute-long motion menus when space is so precious. If you have six 5-minute menu videos, that is like adding 30 minutes to the total program length, basically trying to fit over 3 hours of material on the disc which is just really pushing things.
I like to make "nice" menus as much as the next guy, but in reality, the WEDDING MOVIE is what they want to see. I would hope they do not need a full 5 minutes to make a choice from the menu, and if they do, well then there might be some looping audio. So be it. In other words, do you want to sacrifice the quality of the main movie in order to have 30 minutes of motion menus? You must decide the priority. Which is more important.
Just my two cents ;-)
Thanks
Jeff
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13. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
EdwurdAdam Apr 16, 2013 11:41 AM (in response to SAFEHARBOR11)Hi,
I do agree 100% with you. The main Wedding movie should be the best quality it can be because it is the most important part of the DVD, not the Menus.
I am just going to see how much space I will have after Encore finishes compressing my menus.
I am hoping it's only 2 or GB's. We will see though.
I will let you know what it comes out to be after it finishes. It will probably be a few hours though.
Thanks again for all of your help and input.
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14. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
EdwurdAdam Apr 16, 2013 3:19 PM (in response to EdwurdAdam)Hi Once Again,
After almost 5 hours of "Building to Folder" Encore is finally done building.
It started out as 7.3 Gb used and now it is down to 6.3 GB used. It only compressed down 1 GB.
It now says I have 18.59 GB Free. Let's just say 18 GB Free.
Is that a good?
Will my 2 and a half hour wedding be good quality for a Blu-Ray Disc after I encode it in Media Encoder out of Premiere Pro CS 5.5?
I just did a test in Media Encoder from Premiere with my 2 and a half hour wedding.
My settings are at
Blu-Ray h.264
Dolby Audio
Target Bit Rate = 15.7
Max Bit Rate = 20
Estimated File Size = 18482 MB = 18 GB
For the menus I have now, this is big I can go.
Is this too small? I had read that wih h.264 Blu-Ray your target Bit rate should always be 17.5 or above? Is this true?
If I have to, I will get rid of some things in my menu, even though I really don't want to do that, to make the video look better.
Thanks
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15. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
SAFEHARBOR11 Apr 17, 2013 8:48 AM (in response to EdwurdAdam)My brother's wedding video came out to 3 hours and I believe I used 18 if memory serves, was a couple of years ago. Looked fine to me! This was using 1080i.
I bet if you change the default Transcode settings in Encore you could make the menus smaller. .It's probably rendering those out at 25.
Jeff
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16. Re: Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????
EdwurdAdam Apr 17, 2013 12:10 PM (in response to SAFEHARBOR11)Hi Jeff,
I looked at the transcode settings in Encore, by right clicking on a menu in the project panel and clicking Transcode settings.
It is set to 15, which is the lowest.
So, if I have my 5 minute menu in Encore that is taking up 1.3 GB of space, How can I encode or transcode it down to 100 MB without Encore still saying it's 1.3 GB
Thanks in advance


