1 2 Previous Next 43 Replies Latest reply on May 4, 2013 12:19 PM by station_two

    Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5

    MDS167

      Why are CS5 users not able to upgrade the camera raw supported camera lists?  Camera Raw 6.4.1(Camera Raw 7 doesn't support CS5) is not being upgraded as new cameras come to market. For example I bought a D7100 Nikon and now have to use the DNG converter. As a pro I am forced to go through another step that may degrade the image.

       

      Are there any work arunds or 3rd party plug ins for this?

       

      Adobe has dropped the ball in this by forcing the users to do upgrades they may not be able to afford.

        • 1. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
          kglad Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          i believe you are incorrect about adobe "dropping the ball" on this issue:  adobe has made available (for free) dng converter which can be used to convert your raw files:  http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5569

          • 2. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
            Yammer Level 4

            You can upgrade as far at 6.7 on CS5, which is well worth it anyway, as you get better processing and automatic CA correction.

            • 3. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
              MDS167 Level 1

              I used DNG converter for 200 shots.

              Now I have  an extra folder and have used a bunch of storage as well as the extra time.

              It is just another layer of work.

               

              I don't understand why they can't support CS5 for more than a couple of years.

               

              I am sure Nikon and other brands would like Adobe to be more supportive.

              • 4. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Adobe has been on an 18 month upgrade schedule for quite some time now.  Some people are annoyed because the new version is required to use the latest camera raw.  But it's the way it has been for years.  I find it interesting that some people complain about that extra step required for DNG conversion.  Yet Adobe promotes that workflow, and many people routinely convert to DNG as they import their images.  I don't follow that workflow personally.  The real solution is for the camera makers to adopt the DNG file format, producing it natively in their cameras.

                • 5. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                  Yammer Level 4

                  MDS167 wrote:

                   

                  I am sure Nikon and other brands would like Adobe to be more supportive.

                  Look at it another way:

                  Why does "Nikon and other brands" continue to ignore DNG? If DNG was an available option on new cameras, like JPEG is already (and sometimes TIFF), you wouldn't need to upgrade your software (and that's not just Adobe) every time you use a new camera.

                  So maybe the camera manufacturers should be "more supportive" of their customers. Some are. I believe there are several manufacturers which provide DNG files, including Pentax, Leica and Ricoh.

                   

                  Edit: Great minds think alike.

                  • 6. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                    deejjjaaaa Level 2

                    > I believe there are several manufacturers which provide DNG files, including Pentax, Leica and Ricoh

                     

                    Ricoh purchased Pentax division (from Hoya) and Samung dropped DNG for good (along w/ rebranded Pentax dSLR designs)... so DNG adoption is actually shrinking (marketsharewise too)... it is time to get real - DNG is good as an intermediate workflow format, but as for in camera native raw it is not going to happen... not before camera manufactureres will start documentig their own formats, because the issue is not whether it is DNG flavor of TIFF or NEF flavor of TIFF really.

                    • 7. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                      Yammer Level 4

                      Yeah, I wasn't holding my breath. It's just as reasonable to expect Adobe to update all their obsolete software for free for people who have just spent a wedge of cash on a new camera.

                      I think that where there's a will there's a way, and it might be possible to redesign ACR to separate the decoder from the converter, but that doesn't help anyone with older software now. But, lets face it, Adobe is in it for the money, and they do provide DNG Converter for nothing, so one couldn't call them evil exactly.

                      • 8. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                        Level 5

                        All this discussion of DNG becomes irrelevant in this context if you keep in mind that, unless you upgrade to the latest version of Adobe Camera Raw, which only runs in the latest versions of Photoshop and Bridge, you are leaving a lot of image quality on the table.  Period.

                         

                        Its not just a question of camera model compatibility, but of substantial advances and improvements in the latest versions of ACR.

                         

                        No one can expect Adobe to give you these substantial upgrades for free, so if image quality matters to you, you will upgrade.  Such is life.

                        • 9. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                          Phillip M Jones Level 4

                          Nikon has used NEF for Ages and ages. I bought a D3000 and it used NEF for Raw Files then and I sold the 3000 and bought a 3200. Still uses the same NEF files. I use a Mac and find I have several other Applications  that can open the D3200 Files just fine.  Its just another scheme to Force people to buy new products.  I like the original Poster can't afford to fork over $1200.00 ever year. (Web PremiumCS5.5)  just to get Photoshop to read my camera  natively.  Unlike the 3000 there was so many improvements in the Camera I had to move to the 3200. But chances are I will keep this one more years than the the 3000.

                           

                          I would make the suggestion to get rid of the Raw Plugin and allow Photoshop to use the Mac OS native Raw Plugin which they freely update atleast every three months.  And bTW NEF has been around far longer than DNG.

                          • 10. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                            Jeff Schewe Level 5

                            Phillip Jones wrote:

                             

                            Nikon has used NEF for Ages and ages. I bought a D3000 and it used NEF for Raw Files then and I sold the 3000 and bought a 3200. Still uses the same NEF files.

                             

                            Actually, no...each camera model spawns off a different flavor of NEF. The only thing that is the same is the file extension. And yes, Nikon has been using NEF for a long time...they used it for Nikon scanner files as well. Which actually further complicates the whole NEF file format further.

                            • 11. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                              Phillip M Jones Level 4

                              Then Why if you can create a Separate  Converter can not that converter be built into Photoshop?

                              • 12. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                Level 5

                                PJ,

                                 

                                The DNG Converter does not "convert" raw files in the sense of "rendering" the raw data.  It leaves the raw data untouched and puts it in a different wrapper.

                                 

                                It would be impractical to update Photoshop three to four times a year, which is how frequently new updated versions of the DNG Converter and of ACR get released.

                                 

                                Beyond that, your statement that "its just another scheme to Force people to buy new products" is contradicted by the fact that the DNG Converter is free.

                                 

                                At this point I'll shamelessly will quote my own post #8 above:

                                 

                                …keep in mind that, unless you upgrade to the latest version of Adobe Camera Raw, which only runs in the latest versions of Photoshop and Bridge, you are leaving a lot of image quality on the table.  Period.

                                 

                                Its not just a question of camera model compatibility, but of substantial advances and improvements in the latest versions of ACR.

                                 

                                No one can expect Adobe to give you these substantial upgrades for free, so if image quality matters to you, you will upgrade…

                                • 13. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                  Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                  Phillip Jones wrote:

                                   

                                  Then Why if you can create a Separate  Converter can not that converter be built into Photoshop?

                                   

                                  There is, it's called Camera Raw...

                                  • 14. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                    Level 5

                                    Jeff Schewe wrote:

                                     

                                    Phillip Jones wrote:

                                     

                                    Then Why if you can create a Separate  Converter can not that converter be built into Photoshop?

                                     

                                    There is, it's called Camera Raw...

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                    • 15. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                      Phillip M Jones Level 4

                                      Except the one that is built into my D3200  will work with the Converter that reads NEF and Converts to DNG  But the one built into Photoshop doesn't.

                                       

                                      I know Mac does and I am sure Windows as well Provided a RAW converter  Just let Photoshop use the Converter that comes with the system.  instead

                                       

                                      as for the comment Further up  a parting comment was  .... so if image quality matters to you, you will upgrade…

                                       

                                      Unlike most of you are professional Photographers or Video designers and make tons of Money and 1200.00 is Pocket change. But for me $1200.00 is some serious money for me. I am an amateur Photographer, with an interest family history. Plus I do volunteer work for an Electronic Association  ( the need for DreamWeaver,FireWorks,Photoshop, and Acrobat comes into play.) being retired and on a fixed income money is tight.  You would say then get out. Well Problem is if I didn't have some interest, I would go crazy. So my health would actually suffer. Adobe just don't seem to get. Not everyone can spends Hundreds of dollars a Month  or thousands of extra dollars for hard copy packages. And are actually hurting their bottom. Line I don't expect Adobe to give away their products. I worked in Electronics Service for years both with private companies and with a Public school system so I know you can't give away your product. But when they (The private sector companies) priced there good and services out of the reach of customers, the customers left.

                                       

                                      However Adobe will never see nor here thems comments. Because they are not interested in the customers and customer loyalty. They are just out for the buck.

                                      • 16. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                        Level 5

                                        PJ,

                                         

                                        Methinks you're unclear as to the difference between reading an embedded JPEG preview and the rendering of the raw data.

                                         

                                        At any rate, whether you or I can afford a Photoshop upgrade or not is irrelevant in the context of a professional-level application.

                                        • 17. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                          MDS167 Level 1

                                          >"At any rate, whether you or I can afford a Photoshop upgrade or not is irrelevant in the context of a professional-level application."

                                           

                                          I ran my own studio for 10 years and have used photoshop almost daily for almost 20 years.

                                           

                                          I was and am always 1 and sometimes 2 versions behind the "latest".

                                           

                                          To stay in business you have to be very budget conscious and provide the highest level of product you can.

                                          Whether it is a professional level app or not at a certain point the software has all the features required to do the job and any upgrades simply  correct minor flaws or add some frills that you might use once a year. If you can put off buying the upgrades then as a busines person (not as a photographer) you will.

                                           

                                          I don't see anything that suggests the basic algorithims have changed so I think the new version changes peripheral functions and the basic quality is still the same and relies on the file quality coming in. 12,16 24 mb etc.

                                           

                                          Regardless of all the technical discussion - which by the way - I found interesting , I think Adobe needs to recognise that a large number of users will always be a version or 2 behind and would think much more highly of a company that supports a previous version more fully. I realize they can only go back so far.


                                          • 18. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                            Level 5

                                            MDS167 wrote:

                                             

                                            … was and am always 1 and sometimes 2 versions behind the "latest"…

                                             

                                             

                                            That being the case, you have no clue how much image quality you're leaving behind by not converting with ACR 7.4. 

                                             

                                            You'd be floored if you could do side-by-side comparisons.

                                             

                                             


                                            • 19. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                              PECourtejoie Adobe Community Professional

                                              "I don't see anything that suggests the basic algorithims have changed"

                                              One of the main points of Camera Raw 7 is its new rendering engine: http://brysonleidich.wordpress.com/2012/05/13/camera-raw-7-and-lightroom-4-improvements-in -raw-processing/

                                              • 20. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                Phillip M Jones Level 4

                                                I have Lightroom 4 and maybe I am not looking correctly  I don't see any difference in quality between the image in Lightroom 4 and I am testing the Lightroom 5 beta.  I don't see any difference in quality between the images from my D3200 24.2 MP Camera shot in Raw in LR4/5 and Photoshop CS5.5

                                                • 21. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                  Level 5

                                                  PJ,

                                                   

                                                  I get the distinct impression that you're not very critical when judging image quality.  If I remember correctly, you're mainly concerned with web images, in which case you're better off shooting straight JPEGs right out of the camera.

                                                   

                                                  Of course I could be wrong, but I don't remember seeing any image from you that might lead me to believe otherwise.  Just my recollection over the last decade or so.

                                                   

                                                  Do you calibrate your monitors regularly and often with calibration hardware?  Do you ever make large prints of your images?

                                                   

                                                  Have you followed, among many others, the samples that Noel Carboni has posted over the years comparing the rendering in newer versions of ACR to old ones?

                                                   

                                                  I just happen to have the URL for one of those threads handy:  http://forums.adobe.com/message/4328859?tstart=0

                                                   

                                                  I can't speak to Lightroom because I don't use it.  My experience with early version of that application soured me on it permanently:  I hated its interface and its "libraries" paradigm, among other things.

                                                  • 22. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                    Level 5

                                                    Professional photographer and art director Ann Shelbourne had this comment in the thread linked above:

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Apr 13, 2012 3:14 PM

                                                     

                                                    ACR 7 is amazing: images that I hadn't bothered with before because the DR was simply too extreme (but fortunately had not trashed!) are suddenly becoming golden nuggets!

                                                     

                                                    ACR 7 means that I am finding that I want to re-convert all of my existing RAW .nefs before using them.

                                                    • 23. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                      Phillip M Jones Level 4

                                                      actually I take all types of Photos  People, Landscape Outdoor scenes.

                                                       

                                                      Problem is RAW images  average upwards of 64MB especially with the out door scenes. And any where you wish to upload photos for people to view Flickr, Snapfish even my Niokian's Gallery limit to JPEG and size of  1 MB or less.   LR whether converting old or new Raw Files to JPEG maximum DPI is 240dpi.  I might could see a difference if 300dpi. But I as an amateur and not professional experience can't see one pixel pixel being out place like pros I don't sell my photos . I have printed some Photo using WalMart or Walgreens and people that have looked at them have bragged on them. 

                                                      • 24. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                        Phillip M Jones Level 4

                                                        I looked at the pictures of the geese and the only difference I see, is on some of the geese head I could see a little more brown.  And I notice a narrower band of the picture that is actually in focus in supposedly the better version.  Like I said I am strictly amateur. So I don't have 20-30 years experience putting out pro material

                                                        • 25. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                          Level 5

                                                          If you read the thread I linked to and still tell me you don't see a difference in the various renderings, you simply lack all credibility, PJ.  Sorry.

                                                           

                                                          There are even some animations provided by Noel Carboni there to dramatize the differences.

                                                           

                                                          You may have to click these to see them animate.

                                                           

                                                           

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          I can't fathom what your motivation to comment on this subject can possibly be under these circumstances, PJ, nor do I see why anyone should give much weight to your ill-considered opinions on this topic, if any.

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          Phillip Jones wrote:

                                                           

                                                          …I have printed some Photo using WalMart or Walgreens and people that have looked at them have bragged on them.

                                                           

                                                          Well, that puts your opinions into proper perspective, doesn't it?  WalMart or Walgreens as a standard to judge. 

                                                          • 26. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                            Level 5

                                                            Phillip Jones wrote:

                                                             

                                                            …the only difference I see…

                                                             

                                                            You definitely have very poor vision and/or capacity to discern image quality, PJ.

                                                             

                                                            You should really stop embarrassing yourself in public …and I mean this in the friendliest, nicest and kindest way imaginable, not as an attack on you personally.

                                                            • 27. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                              Phillip M Jones Level 4

                                                              No not necessarily. BTW I said repeatedly I am an Amateur

                                                               

                                                              Right now the Nikonian's site is having Problems I will when I can get in get the link to my recent photo's edited by Photoshop. I uploaded.

                                                               

                                                              I've uploaded the same files to Picasa Web albums: Click Here used two different Lens 10-24mm Wide-Angle the two views of the church was taken with that.

                                                               

                                                              Some of the Lighter photos with less contrast and focus were taken with the 55-200mm zoom lens considered a kit lens.

                                                              • 28. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                                Level 5

                                                                Good grief, PJ.  Those grab-shot images are pitiful—on so many levels—it's not even funny. 

                                                                • 29. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                                  Yammer Level 4

                                                                  The big thing about ACR7 is Process Version 2012. They re-worked the way you operate the sliders to make it more intuitive (although you can still work the old way if you want). Not only that, but the effect the settings have on the conversion have changed, giving you (usually) better results from the off. One of the biggest improvements in this is Highlight Recovery, which people have complained about for some time. Now, as illustrated in the above animations, highlights become better-defined and less washed-out almost without any effort.

                                                                   

                                                                  Adobe Camera Raw is a plug-in which works either with Photoshop or Bridge. It is updated 3–4 times a year, mainly to add support for new cameras, but also to fix bugs, and add new features. I can over-simplify by saying that ACR has three components: a decoder, a renderer, and a user interface. Despite all Nikon cameras' Raw images having a 'NEF' extension, they are structurally unique to each model, and the ACR decoder component has to be modified to work with each new camera. This is the same for any software, not just Adobe's. Sometimes, significant technology developments means that Adobe had to update the renderer too (think Fuji and Sigma sensors).

                                                                   

                                                                  DNG Converter is just the decoder component, and is provided free. It creates backwards-compatible versions of your new Raw files so you can open them in your old Adobe software. Adobe is hardly forcing you to buy CS6.

                                                                   

                                                                  If you can't tell the difference between the before and after images above, then you probably don't need CS6 anyway.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                                    Phillip M Jones Level 4

                                                                    Here are The nikonians link Click Here

                                                                    they were  adjusted for size and to correct for tilt and keystoning as necessary.  to lens were involved a 10-24mm Wide angle and a 55-200mm zoom lens (considered kit lens) the images taken with the 10-24mm have better contrast. All were taken on a Tripod.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                                      Phillip M Jones Level 4

                                                                      "Yammer P wrote:

                                                                      ......

                                                                      Adobe Camera Raw is a plug-in which works either with Photoshop or Bridge. It is updated 3–4 times a year, mainly to add support for new cameras, but also to fix bugs, and add new features. I can over-simplify by saying that ACR has three components: a decoder, a renderer, and a user interface. Despite all Nikon cameras' Raw images having a 'NEF' extension, they are structurally unique to each model, and the ACR decoder component has to be modified to work with each new camera. This is the same for any software, not just Adobe's. Sometimes, significant technology developments means that Adobe had to update the renderer too (think Fuji and Sigma sensors).

                                                                       

                                                                      DNG Converter is just the decoder component, and is provided free. It creates backwards-compatible versions of your new Raw files so you can open them in your old Adobe software. Adobe is hardly forcing you to buy CS6.

                                                                       

                                                                      If you can't tell the difference between the before and after images above, then you probably don't need CS6 anyway."

                                                                       

                                                                      The only reason for me would  be not having to go through the converter as it presents its own issues.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                                        Yammer Level 4

                                                                        Phillip Jones wrote:

                                                                         

                                                                        The only reason for me would  be not having to go through the converter as it presents its own issues.

                                                                        What issues? The extra step?

                                                                        • 33. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                                          Phillip M Jones Level 4

                                                                          Well DPI is Limited to 240dpi.  Then two jpeg is a Lossey format. each time you reduce the size (height width) and the dpi  detail is losted.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                                            Yammer Level 4

                                                                            Phillip Jones wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            Well DPI is Limited to 240dpi.  Then two jpeg is a Lossey format. each time you reduce the size (height width) and the dpi  detail is losted.

                                                                            You've lost me. I thought you were talking about DNG Converter.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                                              Level 5

                                                                              Phillip Jones wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              Well DPI is Limited to 240dpi…

                                                                               

                                                                              What on Earth are you talking about, PJ? 

                                                                               

                                                                              What DPI, whereLIMITED? ??!  How?

                                                                               

                                                                              You just plainly have no idea what you are talking about.

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                              Phillip Jones wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              …Then two jpeg is a Lossey format. each time you reduce the size (height width) and the dpi  detail is losted.

                                                                               

                                                                              What does JPEG have to do with anything being discussed in this thread? 

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                              You're not making any sense whatsoever!

                                                                               

                                                                              A JPEG deteriorates every single time you save or re-save it and close it, regardless of whether you reduce its pixel dimensions or not.

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                              Clearly, you have no business discussing any of this, PJ. 

                                                                              • 36. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                                                Phillip M Jones Level 4

                                                                                You have a Converter that converts to another format then when when in converter You have option of  saveing DNG or Converting to Jpeg. Each step of Conversion loses detail.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                                                  Level 5

                                                                                  Holy cow, you're totally, hopelessly clueless, PJ.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Truly, I mean well when I advise you to stop commenting on this.  It's embarrassing.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                                                    Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                                                    Phillip Jones wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    You have a Converter that converts to another format then when when in converter You have option of  saveing DNG or Converting to Jpeg. Each step of Conversion loses detail.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Let's be real clear here...taking a raw file and converting it to DNG (depending on the DBG Converter preferences) can completely retain all the raw image data. Yes, it can apply lossless compression which is, uh lossless.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Yes, there are options in the DNG Converter that allow you use lossy compression, which is not lossless and yes, there's the ability to save out downsampled DNGs if you choose…but these are only options.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Converting from native raw to DNG can be done in such a way that no impact occurs to the original raw image data. The DNG Converter is made available for free so people which new cameras and older software can access their raw images. DNG files can be read all the way back to Camera Raw 2.4 hosted in Photoshop CS.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Inadequate camera raw 6.4.1 updates for CS5
                                                                                      Peter.King

                                                                                      From this thread, I gather that the conversion from native Raw to DNG is lossless.  If there is no loss in the conversion, is there any any need to retain the original Raw files?  By saving both the native Raw files and the DNG converted files, I am doubling up on the storage space needed, and I wonder if I could recover half that space by deleting the native Raw files after conversion.  What would be your advice Jeff?

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