26 Replies Latest reply on May 6, 2013 10:59 AM by ECBowen

    CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?

    kenackr

      Just past the crossroads of getting on board Adobe Cloud and looking for help on CPU Ram vs. Graphics card GPU.

       

      Hardware:

      • MAC Pro 4,1 (early 2009) 2.26 Ghz, dual 8 core, 23 Gram (5 x 4g sticks and 3 x 1G sticks), 4x 1 TB 7200rpm int. HD (1 is scratch drive), (no windows stuff here)
      • Ge Force GT120 graphics card, Machine has 64 bit capability, but normally starts in 32 bit due to older 32 bit apps still used.
      • Activity monitor shows AE CS6 uses all 16 threads, runs in 64 bit, and grabs about 10 Gig of ram to operate in.

       

      Software:

      • Running OSX 10.6.8. (Snow leopard) with all updates.
      • All main video apps: Creative Cloud (also have FCP studio 3 installed but just switching to Adobe now on video work)

       

      I really like that AE & PPro utilize all the threads, render in the background (which results in NO crashes (so far)) because my old video card GT 120 apparently no longer chokes as it did in FX work in FCP 7 & Motion 4.

       

      1. Q - Can someone point me in the direction of how Adobe got the machine to utilize all the cores & threads and run it in 64 bit but starts in 32 bit?

       

      In terms of performance, (rendering in particular) I realize I should move up to the ATI/Apple 5870 graphics card, but as a fixed income disabled vet, $450 is hard to come by. I've evaluated the flashed cards including those from macvidcards on ebay, but for used cards that are flashed, it gives me pause especially when they are roughly the same price as the 5870 new price.

       

      So I'm wrestling with trying to find out what the best bang for the least $$$ is, hence the title question.

       

      1. Is it more effective for FX video work to add CPU ram or (gulp) upgrade the video card to the 5870 card?

       

      Example: I can add 3 x 4G sticks in place of the existing 3 x 1 G sticks of CPU ram for less than $200. A new 5870 card is $450 from Apple. Which approach gets me more render speed WITHOUT crashes putting VFX to work in AE CS6 or P Pro CS6?

       

      Sorry I'm more than a little hazy on this, but hoping a kind soul will point the way,

       

      Ken

        • 1. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
          Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          To get playback assistance from Premiere Pro or Ray-traced rendering from AE you must have an NVIDIA card. There are several posts regarding the best values for these cards. I would check the system requirements in the Adobe Product pages and seek out the other recent posts on this forum about this subject.

          • 2. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
            Todd_Kopriva Level 8

            For After Effects, more RAM is better. For Premiere Pro, an improved GPU is more important. Also, you could consider spending the same money on an SSD, which would be beneficial for both (for caches).

             

            See this page for information about hardware for Premiere Pro and After Effects: http://adobe.ly/pRYOuk

            • 3. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
              kenackr Level 1

              Rick,

               

              Thanks for the info on both P pro & AE. I did not know about either. I did check the AE Product page and found it to be quite helpful.

               

              In the process of searching the internet, I discovered that EVGA has just announced a new Nvidia card for Mac called: Ge Force GTX 680 Mac Edition.

              The card is a 2 Gig model made specifically for Mac Pro's starting from 2008 Mac Pro 3,1. So that would include my 2009. Bare Feats has already run tests and published results around April 13 - 16th just a few weeks ago.  They confirm that it blows away every other Mac card for speed including the 5870 and the Quadro.

               

              Two caveats stand to the forefront though, a $600 price point if bought directly from EVGA and it requires OSX 8.3.

               

              It has 1563 cuda cores, will do 3D, and has auto speed boost architecture plus quite a few other things. Apparently it is sold out of most stores already, but they'll make more. It was interesting to see in the Bare Feats tests that while it bested the 5870 in all trials by a good margin, the $200 price premium might make the $450 5870 look a little more attractive, if one can get along without ray tracing. It might even help move prices on the 5870 down a bit.

               

              There is also a new AMD card now made for the Mac Pro as well, can't remember the name but it's also another company known for PC cards too.

               

              Thanks again,

               

              Ken

              • 4. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                kenackr Level 1

                Todd,

                 

                WOW! Talk about trying to take a drink from a fire hose, that link is connected to so many things that I'll have to go back and read in more detail many many times.

                 

                In essence, it sounds like to make the hardware I have perform better, I should probably think seriously about spending the bucks on the latest & greatest video card tested by Bare feats as mentioned in my reply to Rick above, the EVGA Geforce GTX 680 Mac edition. And I thought the ATI 5870 was too expensive! If I had a wife at this time, she'd probably tell me to get another avocation or get out. I guess it's beans & more beans for the foreseeable future. If I do that, I'll have to go to OSX 8.3 for the card's requirement. I'll need to check into what impact that will have if any, on my current non video apps.

                 

                Regarding AE and ram. I've been told that there are 3 channel & 4 channel approaches for configuring ram in my 8 core Mac with 8 memory slots. It has been my intention to replace the three 1 G sticks with something higher either 4 G like the 5 other memory slots now hold, or perhaps a trio of 8 G sticks.

                 

                What I do not understand is since this is still a 32 bit machine (because of older applications that don't need to run in 64 bit and don't need to be replaced with 64 bit capable apps), how does AE & P Pro manage to access more memory than the previous 4G limit for 32 bit systems?

                 

                What I'm wondering is there a limit to how much ram either AE or P Pro will grab? As mentioned in my post opening, I can see AE is using all 16 threads, operating in 64 bit, and grabbing roughly 10 Gig of ram for itself. Specifically, If I opt to replace the 3 x 1 g sticks with 3 x 8G sticks that will boost total ram to 44 G if I can still do arithmetic correctly without a calculator. Assuming I'm running AE CS6 with no other programs open , is there a way to estimate how much ram AE would then allot itself? Versus replacing the 3 x 1 G sticks with 3 x 4 G sticks for a total of 32 G ram?

                 

                Thanks for the wealth of information you've already provided,

                 

                Ken

                • 5. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                  Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                  I don't understand why you think your computer is a 32-bit computer. It has a 64-bit processor, and your version of Mac OSX runs 64-bit applications.

                  • 6. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                    Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                    > Assuming I'm running AE CS6 with no other programs open , is there a way to estimate how much ram AE would then allot itself?

                     

                     

                    After Effects will use the RAM that it needs, up to the amount that you specify in the Memory & Multiprocessing preferences.

                    • 7. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                      ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                      The amount of ram AE uses is dependant on the media/codecs and FX used. You can designate under edit/preferences/multiprocessing how much ram is assigned to each thread/core. However the player itself will still use more ram if available. There is also a setting in Premiere and AE that allows you to set the amount of ram left to other applications. This setting is shared between both apps. That allows you to determine how much ram that is left over should you launch another application while AE or Premiere is open. As a general rule AE will use more than enough ram with complicated comps to justify up to 64GB. Beyond that is normally not necessary. Todd is correct about OSX and it is 64bit. OSX like Windows will run 32Bit apps as well should you require.

                       

                      Eric

                      ADK

                      • 8. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                        kenackr Level 1

                        Todd,

                         

                        The reason is because when I asked questions about staying with Snow Leopard or moving up, I was told on the Apple forums by the big forum dogs (not Apple staffers) that the machine could never access more than 4 g of ram because it is a 32 bit machine. It has become apparent because of this dialog, that they didn't know as much as they thought they did. I suspect that under the Apple forums approach where one gets (brownie) points for proffering the "correct" answer that it makes some of the folks a little too quick on the trigger because they "know it all" & have the points to prove it!

                         

                        Reading what I could find in the APPLE knowledge base, did not clear up the distinction for me. I did start up the machine in 64 bit operation a few times, but never saw any difference on the activity monitor.

                         

                        I was stunned to find out that AE & P Pro  would run in 64 bit mode (without me having to upgrade to a newer OSX) and use all of the cores & threads needed. Consequently, I thought the machine was 32 bit bound and that was that.

                         

                        We need a "wrong" buzzer somewhere on here, don't we?

                         

                        Thanks

                         

                        Ken

                         

                        • 9. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                          Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                          This should shed some light on the running of a 64-bit application even with the 32-bit kernel:

                          http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2010/03/64-bit-kernels-and-after-effec.html

                          • 10. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                            wonderspark Level 1

                            So, OS X 10.6.8 (Snow Leopard) is 64-bit, but the 4,1 Mac Pro boots into a 32-bit kernel as a default. It doesn't mean it's 32-bit, because it does run both 32-bit and 64-bit applications. Starting with the 2010 Mac Pro, they made it boot into 64-bit kernel by default, yet it will STILL run 32-bit applications. You can switch the boot kernel by holding down CTRL+ALT+6+4 keys while booting up, and it will boot into the 64-bit kernel on your Mac. I've done that myself, and it does help slightly with certain speed/benchmark tests, but only slightly. I have heard that 10.9 (whatever they call that when it comes out) will be the end of 32-bit / 64-bit kernel, and it will only run 64-bit applications, but I don't know personally... I'm not a developer.

                             

                            Anyway, whether you boot into the 32 or 64 bit kernel is irrelevant to how much RAM it will access and use, even in the Adobe programs. The dual CPU Mac Pros can access and use 96GB of RAM, and the single CPU Mac Pros use up to 48GB, using OS X. Now, if you boot into WINDOWS on the same Mac Pro(s), the dual CPUs will use up to 128GB of RAM, and the single CPUs will use up to 64GB of RAM. It has to do with OS X, not the hardware. As to the exact, technical reason why this is... I do not know. I just know it's been tested and verified.

                             

                            I have nearly the same Mac as you, a 2009 4,1 Mac Pro, but mine came as a quad core. I updated the firmware on it, so that it's now a 2010 5,1 Mac Pro... and I added a 6-core CPU as well as 32GB RAM (4x8) and a 5870. I'm still on 10.6.8, but have a MacBook Pro laptop that runs 10.8.3 with CS6. So far, 10.8 isn't too bad, and runs all my apps just fine. If you intend to stay Mac, you'll have to update that OS X eventually anyway. I'm doing absolutely fine with 10.6.8 and my 5870, but if you can afford it, you'd be even better off with the 680 for Mac GPU and 10.8.

                             

                            Lastly, be careful with mixing up different RAM. It's a potential problem area, and it's highly recommended that you get matching RAM sticks... in your case, fill up all 8 slots with 4GB or 8GB sticks, or up to six 16GB sticks of RAM that's tested on Macs. I get mine from Crucial or OWC.

                             

                            Cheers!

                            • 11. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                              Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                              wonderspark wrote:

                               

                              Anyway, whether you boot into the 32 or 64 bit kernel is irrelevant to how much RAM it will access and use, even in the Adobe programs.

                              Any 32-bit system can only address 4 GB of memory!.

                              • 12. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                                Yes, Bill, but the point is that Mac OSX running the 32-bit kernel still has a 64-bit application/client space. You still need a 64-bit processor, of course. See the article that I linked to above.

                                • 13. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                  wonderspark Level 1

                                  Well, I can't explain it, but I can only tell you from my personal experience that when booted into the standard 32-bit kernel of OS X, it ran both 32-bit and 64-bit apps, and addressed all 16GB that I had at the time, and later, all 32GB when I upgraded to that. For example, CS5 ran just fine in the 32-bit kernel, because the kernel was able to run 64-bit applications.

                                   

                                  I understand that's not the case with Windows, but for OS X, it is/was. The new OS is all 64-bit, so it's fast becoming a non-issue. This guy explains it better than I do:

                                  http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=783948

                                   

                                  Adobe info: (whoops, that Todd already posted... sorry)

                                  http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2010/03/64-bit-kernels-and-after-effec.html

                                  • 14. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                    kenackr Level 1

                                    Wonderspark,

                                     

                                    How did you update the firmware and is that possible for me to do as well? I thought I had heard that you couldn't swap out  CPU's like going from a a quad to a 6 core. I don't think I need any more cores, but I sure would be interested in a clock speed faster than 2.26. Unfortunately, it was very soon after purchasing the Mac Pro that OWC stopped doing doing the upgrades on the 2009 4,1 MP. I was out of money anyhow.

                                     

                                    All current 5 x 4 G sticks are matched pairs from OWC, I'm not sure whether to go with 1 or 3 sticks of 4G. I don't understand the double channel/triple channel thing well other than the Nehalem is built to handle either double or triple channel. I think if I remove all 3 x 1G sticks and put 1 additional stick of 4 G in that will operate the memory in 3 channel mode, for a total of 6 sticks (24G). What I don't know is, will that give better performance than 8 x 4g (32 G) which would then be operating in dual channel mode. Any thoughts on that?

                                    • 15. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                      wonderspark Level 1

                                      More RAM is better than less, and the loss of triple channel is miniscule... about 5% if I recall. The gain of the extra RAM trumps that 5% loss easily. If you *do* insist on keeping six sticks, put them three and three in the two sections. I'd advise talking to someone at OWC, just to ensure that you are getting additional sticks that will match up with the ones you have already. I bet they would just exchange your old set with a complete new set. The reason I believe they would do that, is because you bought that set from them before. When I bought my first set of RAM from them, one of the four sticks was bad, so they let me keep the bad set and sent me a new set of four, only returning the old set after I was sure the new set was good. That way, I could make use of 3/4 of the RAM while I waited for the swap to arrive in the mail. They're very good with customer service.

                                       

                                      The 5,1 firmware update is free, written by a Mac enthusiast, and was originally posted in a Mac Pro firmare thread at netkas.org forums. It's in a very long thread, but I recommend reading it all, so you understand it. I just checked it, and it's down at the moment, but I and many others have the firmware app, should you want it. (It's only 250kB)

                                       

                                      The dual processors you have can be upgraded, but it's a little more difficult than single processors, because the dual CPUs used in the 2009 model were lidless, and you'd be replacing them with standard CPUs, so you have to put the proper spacing (usually with specific washers) on the bolts for the heatsinks. It's a bit of a pain, and not that cheap, but very do-able. My single 6-core CPU was only $590, and I sold my old one for half that, making it pretty cheap, considering Apple charged an extra $1100 or so for that.

                                      • 16. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                        kenackr Level 1

                                        Thanks for the additional information. Ram wise, I'll definitely go with 3 more x 4G to total out at 32 G then. Thanks for the tip on OWC, I'll certainly ask if getting a matched set of 8 can be facilitated with return of my others, all of which have their lifetime warranty.

                                         

                                        Regarding the firmware update, I agree that I should read it all. Could you capsulize the major benefits and any downside to doing it?

                                         

                                        As a minimum, I'd like to investigate the cost/benefit of doing the CPU upgrades and see if it makes sense for me. At one point in my life, I was a well trained Electronics Tech courtesy of the USN. I guess if  the Navy trusted me to run their Nuclear Reactors and fix and maintain any & all of their nuclear reactor instrumentation (and other things I can't tell you about) on the missile boat I rode for 6 years I should be up to it. Some how or another I had the impression that Apple didn't sell cores to J.Q. Public. Where would I investigate where get cores from?

                                         

                                         

                                        Ken

                                        • 17. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                          wonderspark Level 1

                                          I bought my CPU here:

                                          http://www.provantage.com/intel-bx80613w3680~7ITEP374.htm

                                          Note that you'll not want the W series for your dual CPU model. You need E or X... W is for single CPU models.

                                           

                                          Firmware update: Downside is that your Apple restore disks (the grey ones) will become useless, since they have specific disks for the 5,1 Mac Pro. (Not to worry, I have an installer for 5,1 on a thumb drive, tested, and it works perfectly.) Upside is that you can put any CPU offered in the current models into your Mac, and it will also run 1333MHz RAM. The 4,1 firmware caps RAM at 1066MHz, even though they sold Mac Pros with a CPU, the W3580, that could run at 1333MHz. I found that out because I had that CPU, and upon implementing the 5,1 firmware, my 32GB RAM kit suddenly jumped from 1066 to 1333.

                                           

                                          Look at this page (and browse around at other chips) for details concerning CPUs.

                                          http://ark.intel.com/products/47917

                                           

                                          I, too, was in the Navy six years, as an EW. (So technically, you *can* tell me, hahaha!) Did you train at Corry?

                                          • 18. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                            kenackr Level 1

                                            Training at: Great Lakes (electronics), Bainbridge (Nuclear Enginering), New London (submarines), Saratoga Springs (Nuclear Operations). Wound up  teaching Officers' Nuclear course at Windsor, CT. Time at sea out of Holy Lock. USS George Washington 598, first operating nuclear powered, nuclear missile submarine. 

                                             

                                            I guess I could tell you, but I'd still have to erase you. Additional Education at: DePaul BSCS (systems analysis conc, DB design, UVA: BS BusAd, SKool of Hard Knox MS .

                                             

                                            Based on the search I just completed, it appears that the X5570 @ 2.93 GHZ was the fastest CPU for quad cores. Product is now discontinued, however, and it went for $2k per processor. Certainly not in my price range.

                                             

                                            Tell more about about being able to use any current CPU if I go the Firmware update to 5,1. I've never delved into this area before. Do I have to stay with quad cores? or can a 6 core single (like mentioned above) or even 2 sixes in parallel be utilized?

                                             

                                            Thanks for all the great info.

                                             

                                            Ken

                                             

                                            • 19. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                              wonderspark Level 1

                                              You want a pair of X5680 SLBV5 CPUs. They are the 6-core CPUs. Here's a link to them for $805 each:

                                              http://www.allhdd.com/index.php?target=products&mode=search&subcats=Y&type=extended&avail= Y&pshort=Y&pfull=Y&pname=Y&pkeywords=Y&cid=0&q=SLBV5&src=ggl

                                               

                                              Prices drop as time marches on, but I imagine these will eventually be impossible to find.

                                               

                                              Here are a couple links to people who have done this mod:

                                              http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=781908&highlight=done+it+dual+cpu&page=13

                                              http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/step_by_step_mac_pro_processor_upgrade/

                                              • 20. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                                kenackr Level 1

                                                Great reading!

                                                 

                                                I may have misunderstood your comment on the X5680 6 core Cpu's OR I may be as blind as a bat.

                                                 

                                                Didn't see any mention in the bottom links to putting those x5680's into an MP4,1 dual core like mine.

                                                 

                                                Did you mean that the X5680's could be installed using the same procedure, or that they had been installed using the procedure? 

                                                 

                                                Jim Tanous article in the Mac Observer  dealt with the W5590 at 3.33GHz. The "W" has me scratching my head. It says he put 2 of them into the dual core MP 4,1 (just like mine) and found out that one would run just fine, and then put a second one in, to double his pleasure. How does that square with your comment that only "E" or "X" types could/should be used? I'm way out of my league here. 

                                                 

                                                Please clarify, 

                                                 

                                                Ken  

                                                • 21. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                                  kenackr Level 1

                                                  I just found this by serendipity http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?p=XE1270V2BX&c=shopping&hash=3175UzthvZ3%2F3uR74Gddm2A LKO9CVdUOrMt24%2FTVQIAqCF8atwV73Kax9Acj%2FAFTCQHx8zxdtvWk6TrxpXtgPCCUBN2q8u46U2M4adXIhBAgO WFfkDPRLKIbIwah1jJU5ip7nGo&

                                                    

                                                  These are quad core @ 3.5 Ghz max turbo @ 3.9) for $337 each, so a pair would be less than 1 of the 5680's and could well fit my pocket book. Yeah it would only come out to 8 cores vs 12 cores for the 5680's.

                                                   

                                                  Is there a rule of thumb for estimating performance gain (video related: AE CS6 & P Pro for example) with these vs my current 2.26 ghz, assuming I followed thru with the 3 extra sticks @ 4G to bring installed ram to  32 G total all other things being equal?

                                                   

                                                  Ken

                                                  • 22. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                                    Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                    Look at the socket!!!. These CPUs are cheaper but are incompatible. You could as well look at a Phenom II X6, even cheaper but equally incompatible.Ánd dual CPU is equally impossible with this model.

                                                    • 23. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                                      jasonvp Level 3

                                                      kenackr wrote:

                                                       

                                                      Jim Tanous article in the Mac Observer  dealt with the W5590 at 3.33GHz. The "W" has me scratching my head. It says he put 2 of them into the dual core MP 4,1 (just like mine) and found out that one would run just fine, and then put a second one in, to double his pleasure. How does that square with your comment that only "E" or "X" types could/should be used? I'm way out of my league here.

                                                      The W series of 5500 Xeons was Intel's "Workstation" class processors.  They were/are running at max TDP of 130W, quite a bit hotter than the Xs that are in your Mac now.  They'll work just fine assuming you can get them mounted properly without destroying them, or screwing up your heat sinks.  But they will put a higher thermal load on the Mac and work the cooling system a little harder.

                                                       

                                                      FWIW, I have 2 X5690s in my Mac Pro, which also run at a TDP of 130W each.  The machine runs just fine, but the fans do kick up if I start seriously number crunching.  But mine's a newer 5,1 Mac Pro, so the lidded processors fit without any extra effort.

                                                       

                                                      Focus on your video card first.  Then concern yourself with the CPUs.

                                                       

                                                      jas

                                                      • 24. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                                        kenackr Level 1

                                                        Jason,

                                                         

                                                        Thanks for the info. I have not revealed it here yet, but I have already made the commitment (to myself) to purchase the brand new EVGA GEforce GTX 680 Mac edition as soon as I can scrape the money together. Mentally I have crossed both that bridge and the Ram question by also committing to total out ram (at this time) to 32 G very quickly.

                                                         

                                                        Actually, as soon as I calm down from getting backlash from the OWC agent I asked to speak up so I could understand him. I told him I had lost 90 % of my hearing in the service, was wearing new, digital hearing aids  at full volume, and was also using an amplified bluetooth streaming device from my phones' BT base station to my hearing aids. The jerk told me he was screaming into the phone (he wasn't) and that his coworkers were giving him dirty looks because he was so loud. I asked for his supervisor and got an encore performance of how to not to "eat" the mic when someone says they can't hear you.

                                                         

                                                        But I digress, sorry, it just opened my flood gate on dealing JERK-O-SAURUS'es who think you're playing a game when you reveal a permanent wartime disability.

                                                         

                                                        Thanks again for your info. Good to know about the fit issue.

                                                         

                                                        Ken

                                                        • 25. Re: CPU Ram vs Graphics Card Upgrade for Performance in Mac pro?
                                                          kenackr Level 1

                                                          Harm,

                                                           

                                                          1) There was no picture of the socket to look at.

                                                          2) Consider also my May 3 post admission, " I'm way out of my league here.  "

                                                          3) But, if you ever need someone to jumper out the nuclear instrumentation interlocks (from memory of all schematics of all nuclear instrumentation) when your nuclear missile submarine is sinking like a rock and no one else on board knows what to do, I'm your man!!!

                                                          4) I am a nuclear engineer, not a computer design engineer, but yes, I also have a bachelors in Computer science.

                                                           

                                                          Thanks for the information!!!