16 Replies Latest reply: May 4, 2013 8:51 AM by thedigitaldog RSS

    Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?

    woodwizer Community Member

      Hi

       

      I am new to LR(4.3) and am trying to do product photography.  My Nikon D40 isn't supported for Tethering, so I'm using Nikon Camera Control and Folder Watching in LR.  I'm fairly new to photography in general and am spending a lot of time adjusting lights and camera settings to get the background (white) blown out so the product can be easily selected later in PS.

       

      I want to be able to see the highlights through LR like I can see on the back of the camera.  This works in the develop screen by pressing J.  However, the highlight coverage is different from what the back of the camera shows.  i.e on the back of the camera I am close to fully blown out on the background, but in LR there is hardly any red on the background.  I can adjust this in LR, but I would rather get it right without editing.

       

      Not sure if any of that makes sense, but would very much appreciate some help on this.

        • 1. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
          RikkFlohr CommunityMVP

          It sounds like you are shooting Raw files. Correct?

           

          If so, the difference you are seeing is the camera is showing you the 'clipping' on the Jpeg preview. Lightroom is showing you the clipping on the Raw file. The Raw file has much greater fidelity in the highlights region than the JPEG preview and the ability to capture and display more detail near the white side of the histogram. Lightroom is also designed to help you recover that region of the highlights that are simply clipped off by in-camera processing.

          • 2. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
            woodwizer Community Member

            ok that makes sense. Yes I'm shooting in RAW

             

            So does that mean that I need to do more work to 'blow out' the background for my product shots, or am I ok to do this in post?  Bearing in mind that we have to shoot upwards of 1000 products, all with multiple angles.  I am already using three lights pointed at the white background.

             

            The Nikon Camera Control software actually shows me the same image as the back of the camera with the highlights blacked out.  However, the reason I want to tether is so that we can see a much larger image as we shoot.

            • 3. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
              areohbee Community Member

              I have no shooting advice, although it's possible you can bump exposure a tad more than you're used to (ref: Rikk's post above...).

               

              However in post-processing, I recommend processing the subject to perfection (except maybe a little dim) and forget the background, then use the point curve to bring in the white point to clip the background (which will brighten the whole photo a tad).

               

              Why?

               

              (note: +whites is the usual recommendation to increase white clipping)

               

              Because +whites attempts to raise whites and upper highlights without "too much" clipping, whereas point curve just blindly clips *all* upper-most tones (which is what you want).

               

              Of course, that only works if background is brighter than all critical subject tones, which I assume to be the case (if not, add that to shooting advice...).

               

              PS - If you goof up, and clipping the background is also clipping subject tones, then you may need to clip the background using locals (e.g. brush) instead (and/or unclip the subject using locals).

               

              Rob

              • 4. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
                finesse99 Community Member

                If you arn't shooting in manual mode spot metering may help. If there is any slr that blows highlights the d40 is the one....chronically overexposes. If youe concern is with immediate feedback, turning contrast to its minimum may help you gauge blownout areas with the jpeg preview on the back of the screen, it won't affect the nef. LR will recover highlights whether you want it to or not.

                 

                I'm not knocking the d40, btw, I have one and still happily use it.

                • 5. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
                  areohbee Community Member

                  finesse99 wrote:

                   

                  turning contrast to its minimum may help

                  That's what I do (along with neutral profile), but I think there is a way to actually have an in-camera profile expressly designed so in-camera jpeg clipping more closely matches raw. I forgot where I heard about it, and I never actually tried it. trshaner maybe?

                  • 6. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
                    RikkFlohr CommunityMVP

                    Set your Camera to show Adobe RGB instead of sRGB and turn the contrast all they way off to see a Raw-ish preview in-camera. Of course if you shoot a JPEG with those settings, you will be disapponted in the image so remember to turn it back.

                    • 7. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
                      thedigitaldog CommunityMVP

                      I want to be able to see the highlights through LR like I can see on the back of the camera.

                      Unfortunately that camera histogram is based on a JPEG processed by the cameras. If you capture raw, the data shown here is moot (and no matter how you set the camera, it's just less worse). Raw data is encoded vastly differnetly than a JPEG. Plus the settings of the raw processor play a huge role here. IOW, an image that looks blown out on a JPEG or the camera LCD may have piles of good actual tonal data you can recover (properly render) in the raw data file. IF you want to nail this, you have to test the ISO/Exposure for raw plus the processor you use. It's about bracketing and testing so you understand what really does constitutes highlight's really being blown out on the raw data file. This might help:

                       

                      http://www.digitalphotopro.com/technique/camera-technique/exposing-for-raw.html

                       

                      The bottom line here is that you really have to treat a JPEG and a raw exposure differently. It's different data and the processing is vastly different. If you treat a JPEG like a raw, you'll over expose it in many cases. And using those camera controls on the LCD, if you treat a raw like a JPEG, you're basically under exposing it. Raw and JPEG are as different as ISO 100 transparency film and ISO 400 neg file (assuming we can even depend on those ISO settings without testing first).

                      • 8. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
                        areohbee Community Member

                        Adobe: I want Lightroom firmware in my camera! .

                        • 9. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
                          DdeGannes Community Member

                          You want the name of CAMERA changed to ADOBE.

                          • 10. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
                            thedigitaldog CommunityMVP

                            DdeGannes wrote:

                             

                            You want the name of CAMERA changed to ADOBE.

                            All the camera manufacturer has to do is provide us an actual histogram based on the data we asked for. Right now they just lie to all raw shooters. But if having an Adobe camera provided us the actual facts about our data, that would work for me. Last time I checked, Adobe was solely a software company. Those companies that try to do both (Nikon and Caonon fall into this camp) usually suck at one and it's usally software.

                            • 11. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
                              DdeGannes Community Member

                              If we agree to one software provider then where will the motivation for further development come from?

                              • 12. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
                                areohbee Community Member

                                I was thinking Adobe could team up with Sigma:

                                 

                                Sigma does the hardware and lo-level firmware.

                                Adobe does the hi-level firmware/software.

                                 

                                Maybe they could call it a Sigmobe (or Adobma).

                                 

                                If sufficiently succesful, maybe Nikon and Canon could get out of the camera software business, and Adobe would be motivated to beef up the functionality...

                                 

                                R

                                • 14. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
                                  areohbee Community Member

                                  DdeGannes wrote:

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  Once upon a time, I helped engineer some embedded system firmware which was 100% proprietary, no OS (not multi-threaded). After a decade, we wrote a proprietary (multi-threading) OS for it and redid the hardware (still custom/proprietary, but mostly PC compatible) - software (firmware really) could take advantage of a limited subset of Win32 API (and consequently various 3rd party libraries). After another decade, we replaced the OS with an embedded version of Windows XP (and cranked up the memory). Software (*or* firmware, depending on config) now has access to full Windows API.

                                   

                                  Now, firmware development for such custom hardware is not much different than software development for a desktop.

                                  In fact, we have a desktop PC version of the hardware which will also run the "embedded" (read: NOT embedded anymore, in such context) software from disk.

                                   

                                  So it's kinda like: pick the hardware you want (custom proprietary, or standard PC) and load the (same) software from chip or disk, depending...

                                   

                                  Bottom line: Adobe would not have to become a camera maker, they could just become a camera software (firmware) maker. If hardware (camera) maker develops a "BIOS/lo-level firmware" interface which conforms to spec, they can just drop in the Adobe camera firmware on top - for a fee (royalty).

                                   

                                  Thus each company continues to do what it does best, and everybody wins: both companies and users...

                                   

                                  PS - If I'm dead when this happens, please tell everyone you heard it first from Rob Cole in the Lightroom forum .

                                   

                                  Cheers,

                                  Rob

                                  • 15. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
                                    martin-s Community Member

                                    Unfortunately that camera histogram is based on a JPEG processed by the cameras. If you capture raw, the data shown here is moot (and no matter how you set the camera, it's just less worse).

                                    Sadly this is all we have as a guide line out in the field until the manufacturers provide us with a proper read-out of the RAW data.

                                     

                                    In my experience it can make a significat difference to change the in-camera image style/picture control to the neutral profile and lowering contrast/saturation to the minimum. Especially if you had set it to 'landscape' before, you will see considerably less blown out highlights.

                                     

                                    For this reason I would still recommend to change the settings. You also will eventually get a feeling for just how far off your camera's highlight warning is.

                                    • 16. Re: Highlight/Clipping different in LR to Camera?
                                      thedigitaldog CommunityMVP

                                      martin-s wrote:

                                      Sadly this is all we have as a guide line out in the field until the manufacturers provide us with a proper read-out of the RAW data.

                                      It begs the question to those who at one time shot analog film, especially transarency stock, how did you nail expsoure? No LCD of course, no histogram. I know what I used to do and I'd submit raw (or JPEG) is no different, this is exposure 101. You need to test the system (exposure and development), understand how either an incident or reflective meter operates, then go off and capture images.

                                       

                                      I know I did use Polaroids as an aid to setup lighting in those days. Like the camera LCD, it wasn't all that 'accurate' in terms of a visual match to the film. But over time, one could adjust and extrapolate what the film results would be, based on a somewhat ugly Polaroid. Again, this was mainly for setting up strobes, not as an exposure guide. Until one understands ideal exposure for any media, be it a color neg or a DSLR raw, it's going to be rough going.