27 Replies Latest reply on May 7, 2013 9:35 PM by PierreLouisBeranek

    Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline

    PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

      When setting aside clips in the Timeline that have been modified with effects, motion settings, keyframes and/or markers, where would you like to be able to store those clips for future: the Project Window or the Timeline?  Lets compare.

       

      Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline

       

      Advantages of storing clips with effects/markers/keyframes in the:

       

      PROJECT WINDOW:

      1. Searchable
      2. Viewable in Icon view in addition to List view
      3. Sortable
      4. Easy organization through Bin/Sub-Bin hierarchies
      5. Access to metadata columns such as 'Video Usage', 'Audio Usage', etc.
      6. Can delete the original instance from the Timeline, thereby setting the 'Video/Audio Usage' metadata column values back to zero, making it easy to keep track of which modified clips have or haven't been used yet.
      7. Can delete the original sequence without losing any of the created subclips.

       

      SEQUENCES:

      • None of the above

       

      The Project Window was made for storing/sorting clips, whereas the Timeline was made for editing.  So why does Adobe only allow us to store modified clips in Sequences?

       

      The solution is incredibly simple: Allow editors to Drag&Drop modified clips from the Timeline back into the Project window while preserving all modifications!

       

      If you care about seeing Premiere Pro become all that it can be by providing the most intuitive and flexible workflow available, please join me in getting the message heard by copy/pasting the Feature Request below, or sending Adobe this request in your own words.  Thank you!

       

       

       

      *******Enhancement / FMR*********

      Brief title for your desired feature:  Drag&Drop Modified clips into Project Window

       

      How would you like the feature to work?

      Ability to Drag&Drop clips with effects, motion settings, keyframes and/or markers back into the Project Window from the Timeline for later use.

       

      Why is this feature important to you?

      The Project Window is far better than Sequences for storing/organizing modified clips for future use, since it is:

      1. Searchable
      2. Sortable
      3. Viewable in Icon and List views
      4. Full of helpful metadata columns such as 'Video/Audio Usage'
      5. Foolproof in that the original sequence can be deleted without losing any created subclips

       

      Given these advantages, why only allow us to store modified clips in Sequences? Please fix this by allowing users to Drag&Drop clips from the Timeline to the Project Window while preserving all of their modifications (effects, keyframes, motion settings and/or markers).

        • 1. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
          Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

          Quote from my comment here:

          In which way such PrPro project assets as sequences are not searchable, sortable, have difficulties in organising through bin hierarchy ??? And how deleting a nested sequence instance in the timeline or even deleting original sequence, which contained the nested sequence affect the nested sequence asset in the Project panel ???

           

          Regard to icon view and access to metadata for the project asset called 'Sequence', maybe it's a different story?

          • 2. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
            PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

            Hi Fuzzy,

             

            It seems you're more interested in arguing for arguments sake.  No matter how I spell it out, it seems you refuse to understand and you bring up nonsensical points.

            Fuzzy Barsik wrote:

            In which way such PrPro project assets as sequences are not searchable, sortable, have difficulties in organising through bin hierarchy ???

            I'm talking about the ability to save modified CLIPS directly in the Project Window, and you start talking about the ability to search and sort sequences. 

            What's your point?

             

            I would appreciate if you brought your arguments elsewhere, or at least tried contributing in a positive, logical way.  Thank you. 

            • 3. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
              Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

              The only person who is interested in arguing for the sake of arguing here (or maybe saving face or whatever) is you.

               

              Instead of comprehending how the software actually work you're striving for it would work in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY you got accustomed to without understanding that you already have a much more powerful and flexible tool at hand.

               

              What is more, you're not willing to accept explanations and different points of view and try hard to incriminate personal attacks, false arguments etc. etc. to those who say, 'Hey, turn your habits around, here is how it is implemented'.

               

              For everyone familiar with PrPro it is clear that nesting a clip or a group of clips in the timeline (as well as e.g. replacing a clip or a group of clips with dynamically linked AE comp) inevitably results in creating according asset in the Project panel, which can be reused as many times as you want. Hence, your claim that there is zero ways in PrPro to save a clip with applied effects, keyframes, markers etc. etc. for future use is either lie or ignorance.

               

              There is nothing in my previous comment that is not derived from your statements in the original post. Maybe you should just read sometimes your own writings?

              • 4. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                Fuzzy Barsik wrote:

                Instead of comprehending how the software actually work you're striving for it would work in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY you got accustomed to without understanding that you already have a much more powerful and flexible tool at

                Your last post is turning into a personal attack and has therefore been reported to Adobe as abusive.

                 

                In another thread I agreed with you that nests are a possible way of saving modified clips in the Project window for future use.  However doing it this ways presents several workflow inconveniences vs the ability to save modified clips in the Project window directly.  That's why I am requesting that Adobe add this feature, because I understand Premiere Pro well enough to see its strengths and limitations, and care about it enough to try to help it improve.

                • 5. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                  Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                  As I already mentioned, you try hard to incriminate personal attacks, false arguments etc. etc. for everyone who attempts to disagree with your opinion on a basis of a bit better understanding how things work throughout Adobe Suite, whereas the only person who really undertakes personal attacks in your threads is you. Let me cite your comment from here:

                  I wish the quality and logic of your posts were as high as the number of posts you make.

                  That's what really qulifies.

                   

                  Now get back to the subject. If you requested thumbnail view and enabling metadata for PrPro project assets called 'Sequences', I'd vote in favour of with all my paws and tail! However, that's not what you're fighting for. You set out on your next crusade for FCP style 'subclips with effects' - absolutely unnecessary extra type of asset.

                   

                  Which inconveniences exactly are you suffering from while reusing nested sequences?

                   

                  Did you eventually manage to understand that nested sequences are automatically saved DIRECTLY in the Project panel when you nest a clip or a group of clips in the timeline?

                   

                  Do you understand that nesting is a MUCH MORE powerful and flexible way of creating and reusing complex compositing assets? Especially on conditions you can unnest them in the timeline in PrPro CS Next as well?

                  • 6. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                    PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                    Fuzzy,

                    Since you still don't seem to understand the advantages of the method I'm requesting, how about another comparison:

                     

                    Saving individual modified clips in the Project Window: NEST vs UN-NESTED MODIFIED CLIP:

                     

                    MODIFIED CLIP:

                    1. Intuitive (simply drag&drop any clip from the Timeline to any Project Window bin.  Voila!  Clip with all modifications saved!)
                    2. 1 step process (click/drag&drop modified clip directly into the Bin you want to save it in for later use)
                    3. Can save modified clips with markers
                    4. Can save a clip with Video only

                     

                    NEST

                    1. Counter-intuitive (if users want to save a single modified clip in the Project Window for later use, drag&dropping that clip is a lot more intuitive than having to create a nest)
                    2. 6 step process: 1. select clip 2. nest clip with keyboard shortcut or context menu option 3. change name of nest from "Nested Sequence XX" to appropriate name that actually represents the modified clip being sent to the Project Window (new step in PP CS Next), 4. click OK to exit nest renaming dialogue box, 5. locate nest in root of Project Window, 6. drag new nest into appropriate Bin.
                    3. Can't show any markers of nested content unless nest is brought back into Premiere as a clip rather than a nest (1 more step to worry about and hardly foolproof for new users).
                    4. Nests insist on creating an Audio track even when only Video is present (unless this has been changed in CS Next?).  Having to carefully avoid overwriting other audio tracks when sending the nest to the Timeline and having to delete the nest's empty audio track adds unecessary aggravation for the editor.

                     

                    Fuzzy Barsik wrote:

                    Which inconveniences exactly are you suffering from while reusing nested sequences?

                    Answer: All of the NEST points above.  In CS6 or earlier, it's even more inconvenient since there's no pop-up Nest renaming window that appears when creating a nest, meaning it's 7 steps instead of 6, since the user needs to rename the nest twice, in the Project Window and in the Timeline!

                     

                    If you would be so kind, please explain: how is the 6-7 step process you're defending better than, and annul the need for, the 1 drag&drop step I am requesting from Adobe?

                    Fuzzy Barsik wrote:

                    Do you understand that nesting is a MUCH MORE powerful and flexible way of creating and reusing complex compositing assets?

                    Yes, I understand that nests have their purpose, but that is not the point.  For the last time, I am talking about the ability to save an INDIVIDUAL clip with modifications in the Project Window, NOT "complex compositing assets" as you point out.

                     

                    Hopefully this explains it all.  I don't know of any better way I can state the case for being allowed to store individual modified clips in the Project Window rather than just nests.

                    • 7. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                      PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                      Kevin, do you know if in CS Next nests still create an audio track even when no audio was nested?

                       

                      I would love to hear your take on the ability to save modified clips in the Project Window vs having to rely on nests (together with all of that work-around's inherent problems).

                       

                      Thanks!

                      • 8. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                        Fuzzy Barsik Level 4
                        MODIFIED CLIP:

                        Intuitive (simply drag&drop any clip from the Timeline to any Project Window bin.  Voila!  Clip with all modifications saved!)

                        NEST

                        Counter-intuitive (if users want to save a single modified clip in the Project Window for later use, drag&dropping that clip is a lot more intuitive than having to create a nest)

                        False. All your 'intuition' is based on your previous experience and pet habits. If that didn't work that way in FCP you'd claim completely different things for being 'intuitive' and 'counter-intuitive'. Try to learn layer paradigm of After Effects and then implement your 'intuition' in a node based compositor. Will be funny.

                         

                        For those familiar with how things work throughout Adobe Suite nesting is a MUCH MORE intuitive way for creating reusable asset with keyframes, effects etc. etc. And I already pointed you out that consistent behaviour throughout the Suite is MUCH MORE important than pleasing wishes of a next newcomer. The most stupid thing that can be implemented is the one when every application in the Suite behaves in its own way while doing exactly the same thing.

                        MODIFIED CLIP:

                        1 step process (click/drag&drop modified clip directly into the Bin you want to save it in for later use)

                        NEST

                        6 step process: 1. select clip 2. nest clip with keyboard shortcut or context menu option 3. change name of nest from "Nested Sequence XX" to appropriate name that actually represents the modified clip being sent to the Project Window (new step in PP CS Next), 4. click OK to exit nest renaming dialogue box, 5. locate nest in root of Project Window, 6. drag new nest into appropriate Bin.

                        True, except you still need to select a clip first, hence it's a 2 step and not a 1 step process. And I'd rather have pop-up dialog box on nesting in PrPro similar to one in AE.

                         

                        However, all those 'advantages' evaporate right on the need to e.g. create a reusable transition with track matte.

                        MODIFIED CLIP:

                        Can save modified clips with markers

                        NEST

                        Can't show any markers of nested content unless nest is brought back into Premiere as a clip rather than a nest (1 more step to worry about and hardly foolproof for new users).

                        Huh? Save or show trough? A clip markers are saved. Sequence markers inside a nested sequence are shown as a clip markers in a master sequence. If a new user wants to work instead of wail, he needs to learn basics (see above about 'intuition' and paradigms).

                        MODIFIED CLIP:

                        Can save a clip with Video only

                        NEST

                        Nests insist on creating an Audio track even when only Video is present (unless this has been changed in CS Next?).  Having to carefully avoid overwriting other audio tracks when sending the nest to the Timeline and having to delete the nest's empty audio track adds unecessary aggravation for the editor.

                        True, except you can easily drag Video or Audio only from the Source Monitor.

                        I am talking about the ability to save an INDIVIDUAL clip with modifications in the Project Window, NOT "complex compositing assets" as you point out

                        You DO have this ability right now. Inventing a new asset like 'subclip with effects' for a special case raises more questions than answers in terms of both a new user confusion, for whom you're trying to advocate, and inconsistent behaviour throughout the Suite. Do you understand you have to invent the same asset for After Effects? Have you ever tried to ask After Effects artists what would they think about that brilliant idea?

                        • 9. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                          Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                          PierreLouisBeranek wrote:

                           

                          Kevin, do you know if in CS Next nests still create an audio track even when no audio was nested?

                           

                          Yes, it does.

                           

                          PierreLouisBeranek wrote:

                           

                          I would love to hear your take on the ability to save modified clips in the Project Window vs having to rely on nests (together with all of that work-around's inherent problems).

                           

                          I don't recall using FCP like this all the time, but if it was a valid workflow for you then by all means, request it.

                           

                          I'm glad there is a workable way to save presets right now, though. In Premiere Pro Next, you could create a project with a bunch of preset sequences with effects attached. Through the Media Browser, you could grab some of those preset effects sequences and import them right into your project.

                          • 10. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                            Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                            Presets help but I am with Pierre on this one.

                             

                            My workflow is similar to what he wants except I copy the clips over to a separate sequence when I have them the way I want them. That way I can go back in and get them easier than picking them out of a busy sequence. If I wanted to, I could put each clip on its own sequence to make it easier to look through the bins for individual clips. However, I lose access to the metadata that way. I would be happy if I could drag a clip to the project panel and both save the extra step and keep the metadata.

                             

                            I would much prefer to be able to store them in a project bin.

                             

                            I can create a subclip quite simply from the Source monitor. Why can't I create one from the timeline, complete with effects.

                             

                            As Pierre points out the the project bin allows for a much easier and way more organized storage location. It is what the bins are for.

                             

                            I have a project I use to keep quite a few video and audio clips that I use in various types of projects. Corporate training videos require a logo and all kinds of misc titles and audio clips. I need to redesign my tutorial intro but when I do, it will be in the storage project. That will always be necessary to my workflow, but I would like to be able to store subclips within a project for later use in that project in the bins.

                            • 11. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                              PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                              Hi Steven,

                               

                              Finally a voice of reason.  Thank you.  I hope you've added your official FR for this. 

                               

                              Fuzzy,

                              It's clear you are intent on arguing that saving a modified clip in a nest is better than being able to save it directly no matter what evidence to the contrary you are presented with.  There's no use trying to explain to those who refuse to understand.

                              I am talking about the ability to save an INDIVIDUAL clip with modifications in the Project Window, NOT "complex compositing assets" as you point out

                              You DO have this ability right now.

                               

                              Really?  Please show me how I can do this without nesting.  If we can already do this as you claim, I will gladdly take back my FR and stop requesting this feature.

                              • 12. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                                Pierre,

                                 

                                You did a fine job of spelling it out. I just copied yours and pasted it in.

                                • 13. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                  PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                                  Glad you found it useful Steven!  I think whenever any of use come up with good FRs, we should post them in this forum to make it easy for others who support the idea to copy/paste it as their own FR.  Guess I'll have to start a new thread with that suggestion.

                                  • 14. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                    Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                                    If you stick around long enough you will find that is what we do. We campaign for the changes just like you did here. It is fairly common. That way, if it turns out that there actually is a way to do it, we find out pretty quick. And if there is not a way to do it, the more people who submit a FR the better.

                                    • 15. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                      Fuzzy Barsik Level 4
                                      It's clear you are intent on arguing that saving a modified clip in a nest is better than being able to save it directly no matter what evidence to the contrary you are presented with.

                                      Generally speaking, it should have been clear that reframing the issue instead of battling against the Saracens with a subclip on the flag reveals actual flaws, which should be improved for both benefits of all users and applications integration throughout the Suite:

                                      - live thumbnail view for 'Sequenes';

                                      - enabled metadata for 'Sequences';

                                      - pop-up dialog box on nesting;

                                      - ability to detect and remove empty audio or video tracks.

                                      Therefore, the feature request I submitted looks like the following:

                                      *******Managing Sequences*******

                                       

                                      It would be nice if managing capabilities for such assets as 'Sequences' were extended with the following features:

                                      - similar live thumbnail view, which was introduced for footages in CS6. A small 'Sequence' badge in the top left corner of the thumbnail would allow to differentiate between sequences and clips;

                                      - enabled metadata and ability to handle them like for any other regular asset;

                                      - ability to remove empty audio or video tracks completely, i.e. get a sequence as an Audio or Video asset only;

                                      - pop-up dialog box on hitting 'Nest' command, which would allow to give meaning name instead of default 'Nested Sequence XXX', contain 'Delete All Empty Tracks' checkbox and a button for advanced dialog for logging metadata right on a brand new asset creation.

                                       

                                      These features would improve an ability to exploit sequences as reusable assets and preserve consistent applications behaviour throughout the Suite instead of breaking existing workflow by inventing new FCP style 'subclip with effects' type of asset. See this discussion in PrPro Forum for some more details:

                                      http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1204107?tstart=0

                                      And the main issue with all your requests I was able to see so far in both PrPro and AE Forums (keyframes and the Slip Tool is pleasant exception, but sooner coincidence) is you rather want to 'win' by all means instead of look at a broader picture.

                                      Really?  Please show me how I can do this without nesting.

                                      You started with the false statements. I outlined that. I never said you can save a reusable asset with effects, keyframes etc. etc. in the Project panel without nesting. So, what is your point in asking me to show you something I never stated?

                                      • 16. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                        Jim_Simon Level 8

                                        When setting aside clips in the Timeline that have been modified with effects, motion settings, keyframes and/or markers, where would you like to be able to store those clips for future

                                         

                                        I don't store such clips for future use.  If I'm at the effects/keyframes stage of editing, the clips is good right where it is.

                                         

                                        Markers stay with the clip anyway.

                                        • 17. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                          PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                                          Like you Jim, I don't think any PP users store clips with effects for future use... because doing so through nesting (the only current alternative) is too impractical a solution to be really helpful.

                                           

                                          Of course we each have different, equally legitimate ways of working.  So whereas a feature might be a godsend for some, it might not be of much use to others. 

                                          • 18. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                            Jim_Simon Level 8

                                            Like you Jim, I don't think any PP users store clips with effects for future use... because doing so through nesting (the only current alternative) is too impractical a solution to be really helpful.

                                             

                                            That's not quite "like me".  I have no problem with the nesting option (or the Copy/Paste Attributes option).  I just don't see a very large need to save clips with effects for future use.  I put the clip where I need it first, and then I add effects.  I think that's generally the way most editors work.

                                            • 19. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                              PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                                              It all depends on workflows and what kind of clips you want to save for later reuse.  For example, imagine a modified watermark (logo with scale/position/opacity settings, and Tint/Bevel effects).   Wouldn't it be much easier to locate/reuse this asset later if it could be saved in the Project Window with all effects intact, vs. 1) searching for it in other Sequences to copy/paste (without the benefit of a keyword search), 2) locating the logo in the Project Window and having to copy/paste effects back into it, or 3) having to create & name a nest and then locating it in the Project window to place the new nest in a relevant Bin?  For simple projects with only a few sequences, locating the asset manually in another Sequence might not be a big deal.  But as the project grows, the difficulty of locating an asset without the benefit of  Bins and keyword searches grows exponentially. 

                                               

                                              Sometimes we think we don't need something because we've never used it.  I certainly never cared for this feature before discovering it.  But once I discovered it in FCP, there was no turning back!

                                              • 20. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                                Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                  Wouldn't it be much easier to locate/reuse this asset later

                                                 

                                                Well, here again a watermark with effects is something I'd be doing last, not first and saving for later.  Reusing it on another sequence in the same project is just a copy/paste.  Reusing it for several projects I'd create a DI.

                                                • 21. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                  Sometimes we think we don't need something because we've never used it.

                                                   

                                                  I won't argue that.  But it can be a hard sell for those who've never used it, especially when there are things we consider more important.  CS Next has a few FCP features PP never had, but is missing some things I think would have made PP better than FCP, rather than it's clone.  Things like background rendering, render farm capabilities, Instant Autosave, Pixel Motion Timewarp (ala After Effects), etc.

                                                  • 22. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                                    Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                                                    There are certain effects that I apply to my introductions when I do corporate training videos. I keep these effects on a clip in a project that I have designated for this purpose. I then import this project into every new project so that I can copy and paste the attributes from the clip. A DI would not help.

                                                     

                                                    Now, can I continue to do it this way? Sure. But I have a couple of dozen such clips on a sequence in that project. I sure would be happier having them in the project panel so they would be easier to scrub and to sort, etc.

                                                     

                                                    Not a major deal for me, but I would be glad to see the feature show up in one of the updates on CC.

                                                     

                                                    Edit: Not to mention titles I have put in motion on the timeline. Those would really be nice to see in the project panel.

                                                    • 23. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                                      Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                      OK, now I'm starting to see the value of it.

                                                       

                                                      But, might it not be easier to have an AE project for this, where you can easily replace the specific clips and keep all effects/alignments in tact?

                                                      • 24. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                                        PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                                                        For some situations, Jim, AE linked comps would be better, sure.  But PP already allows users to replace a clip while keeping all effects/alignment intact.  Simply ALT drag a clip from the Project Window over another one in the Timeline. (Great PP and AE feature!)  But for most simple things, such as titles with motion (excellent example Steven!) it would be far more practical and simple to do it within PP... Especially for users who don't have or know how to use AE.  (Not me personally, but it's good to be conscientious of as many people's needs as possible)

                                                        • 25. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                                          PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                                                          Jim Simon wrote:

                                                          I won't argue that.  But it can be a hard sell for those who've never used it,

                                                          Change, however good, is often a hard sell. But in this case, anyone who wants to try it out can already do so in FCP7.

                                                           

                                                          There are several features that I too would have preferred to see added before some of the FCP features added in this last version of PP (such as non-slipping keyframes).  But it's just the nature of the game that we would all prefer some things first since we all have different workflows that require some things more than others.

                                                           

                                                          I honestly do believe though that once we're given feature-rich subclips, we'll wonder how we got along without them.  It's just such an easy way to store effect/keyframe/marker-rich assets for reuse... something I sorely miss from FCP.  But of course I can't go back to FCP, since PP is so much better in so many other aspects!

                                                          • 26. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                                            Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                            in this case, anyone who wants to try it out can already do so in FCP7.

                                                             

                                                            That would require both a Mac and FCP 7, neither of which are given options for 'anyone'.

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            I honestly do believe though that once we're given feature-rich subclips, we'll wonder how we got along without them.

                                                             

                                                            Meh, there's still plenty of things I'd love to see first.

                                                            • 27. Re: Organizing clips: Project Window vs Timeline
                                                              PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                                                              You mean not everyone has a Mac??? ...oups, forgot... I don't either.  hehehe