28 Replies Latest reply: May 9, 2013 6:03 PM by thedigitaldog RSS

    D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace

    rextranter

      I can open my D700 files in Lightroom 4.4 only if there were shot in sRGB colorspace.  Lightroom does not recognize them if they were shot using Adobe RGB colorspace.  Is there some update or plug in to lightroom that will allow me to open these?  ( I have downloaded the latest Lightroom 4.4)

        • 1. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
          ssprengel CommunityMVP

          Can you post one for others to see: upload one of something unimportant to www.dropbox.com and post a public download link, here, so others can see if their systems act the same.

          • 2. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
            thedigitaldog CommunityMVP

            These are JPEGs?

            • 3. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
              rextranter Community Member

              These are raw images (NEF).  The Jpegs are not a problem.  I discovered this when I switched from sRGB to Adobe RGB somewhere in the middle of shooting (this is a 'new' camera and Ive always shot in Adobe).  D700 names the files differently when you switch between modes and I noticed that Lightroom didn't recognize any of the Adobe colorspace files. (message - 'no files found to import')  For now, I can generate them as DNG, but what a pain!D700 has been around for a while - I have to imagine someone has run into this.  Incidentally, my older version of Nikon Capture NX which I used with my D300 has the same problem with the NEF images - sRGB no problem, Adobe - cant open.

              • 4. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                ssprengel CommunityMVP

                Something is not right.  LR should recognize the AdobeRGB-thumbnail files, too, which is why a sample NEF from your camera would be useful to see.

                 

                Of course you could also just set your camera to sRGB and not worry about it.  There is no benefit to setting your camera to Adobe RGB if you are shooting RAW.  The sensor data in the files is the same, only the camera-embedded-jpg-preview and it’s accompanying histogram is different.  If you are also shooting JPG then the JPGs would be different, but not the NEFs.

                • 5. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                  thedigitaldog CommunityMVP

                  Something certainly isn't right as setting the camera for Adobe RGB (1998) doesn't change the raw data one bit, it's only metadata. I've never heard of this issue.

                  • 6. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                    rextranter Community Member

                    Interesting! 

                    I hadn't tried a JPG in Adobe colorspace. So far, all the JPGs I have shot on it have been in sRGB and have opened with no problem.  I only noticed the problem on the RAW images.  I should try a definite test of all 4.  How can I get a image file into the forum for examination? Is there something I can do?

                    • 7. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                      ssprengel CommunityMVP

                      If your camera is set to Adobe RGB and you shoot JPG then your JPGs will be in Adobe RGB not sRGB.  Are you really setting your camera to sRGB to shoot JPGs and Adobe RGB to shoot raws when there is no effect on the raw data?  That seems backwards.  Adobe RGB is a lightly wider colorspace so it helps to have JPGs in that if there are bright colors, but there’s no benefit to shoot raw with Adobe RGB.

                      • 8. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                        rextranter Community Member

                        The camera is new to me - I have been using the D300 for years and have shot everything in Adobe RGB - both Jpg and Raw. The D700 I started off with everything in sRGB - as it was new and I hadn't checked that.  So all Jpgs and Raw were in sRGB - no problem with any software at this point.  In the midst of a trip, I changed to Adobe and had shot only in RAW.  Those Adobe Raw files are the ones that Lightroom 4.4 wont open.  Havent tried an Adobe Jpg yet as I just discovered this while processing the pics last nite.  The process came to a stop once I hit those files shot in Adobe.    I can certainly go back to sRGB - but I have a lot of files in Adobe that Id like to get processed!  I seem to have the same problem with my version of Capture NX - another story.   Meanwhile, I am using DNG converter to get the files into JPGs that I can use.

                        • 9. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                          ssprengel CommunityMVP

                          To get a file here for people to look at, see reply #1: upload it to www.dropbox.com or www.skydrive.com or another temporary large-file-hosting service, and then post the public download link, here.

                           

                          Another question:  are you using Nikon Transfer to move the files?  Older versions of this software are obsolete according to Nikon and change things in the file headers that make files unrecognizable to Adobe products.  This shouldn't have anything to do with the colorspace tag you have set in the file metadata (sRGB vs Adobe RGB) but maybe it does or maybe it is a coincidence.   If you want to continue to use Nikon software to transfer pictures from your camera to your computer then install the very latest version of View NX2 and use its Nikon Transfer component.  Or just use Explorer / Finder / Lightroom to transfer the pictures.

                           

                          If you have corrupted files wtih Nikon Transfer, then you can fix this using a tuility from the following website:

                          http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/fix_corrupted_nef.html

                          • 10. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                            thedigitaldog CommunityMVP

                            It be useful to have a raw set as you do to produce an error. Or maybe you can try on another local system.

                             

                            FWIW, doesn't matter if you set sRGB or Adobe RGB (1998) capturing raw, it only affects the JPEG.

                            • 11. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                              rextranter Community Member

                              I am not using Nikon Transfer - I always just copy via Windows from the camera to the computer.

                              However I am using Nikon View NX as my primary viewing and sorting tool once it is in place.

                              I should try opening a file,in Lightroom without opening in View NX first, and see if it behaves.

                              ....And it would follow that I have had 3 Nikon SLRs and would have to have 3 version of their software to work with any of the files. How convenient of them....

                              • 12. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                rextranter Community Member

                                I have always just set the camera on one colorspace and leave it whatever format I am shooting. So this was a surprise.  But as mentioned - it sounds like the Nikon View may be the culprit.  I will try some tests to see where the problem actually lies.  Thanks everyone for the input. I will post my results later.

                                • 13. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                  ssprengel CommunityMVP

                                  Each new model of camera would need to be supported by Nikon View NX(2), specifically, so Nikon would need to release a new version of software for each new camera, but you should be able to use the newest version with all your older cameras, too, right, or does Nikon stop supporting older cameras in their newer software?

                                   

                                  Hearing that and old ViewNX(2) might be corrupting the files would be new information (to me) and good to have confirmed as something for people with corrupt files to fix.

                                   

                                  Are you doing anything in ViewNX(2) that would have to rewrite the file, perhaps adding a copyright or a rating or a flag?

                                   

                                  If the camera setting of AdobeRGB vs sRGB makes a difference, perhaps ViewNX(2) is rewriting the thumbnail as sRGB when it was originally AdobeRGB and thus modifying the file and corrupting it.

                                  • 14. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                    rextranter Community Member

                                    I am using View and Capture NX 1 - not version 2 - so I probably need to upgrade.  But I think the problem is reversed as I had no problem processing about 3,000 images in Lightroom that were NEF files and Jpg files shot in sRGB colorspace.  Only when I tried the Adobe 1998 files did it bomb.

                                     

                                      I have found that while the later versions of NX to support older cameras - it is not without some pain. For example - both NEF and JPG files from my old D100 take a really long time to display in View NX.  I have found it is easier to keep a copy of the pre-NX version around just in case I need to go back.  It has always amazed me that I can open raw images from any camera in other software (such as Lightroom) , yet Nikon is restricted to its own file versions. Apparently there is a similar gap between D300 and D700 - though I and view ALL file types from D700 in ViewNX - I cannot open the adobe colorspace files in Capture NX

                                    • 15. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                      ssprengel CommunityMVP

                                      The V1 version of Nikon Transfer is known to cause issues with newer camera NEFs so it's this surprising that the V1 versions of the other Nikon software also has problems. 

                                       

                                      The unimportant question, other than being a curiosity, is why Adobe RGB is causing a problem when sRGB isn't, but it is not something Lightroom is doing different, it is something the old Nikon software is doing differently to the new camera-models' raw files, changing something in the data when Adobe RGB colorspace is specified and making them unreadable to Adobe but not changing the same thing when they are shot in sRGB colorspace.  Without doing some low-level byte-by-byte file analysis you probably aren't going to be able to understand what the Nikon software is doing, but at least you know what to do to make things work.

                                       

                                      If you still thing Lightroom has something to do with causing the problem, then copy an sRGB NEF and an Adobe RGB NEF directly from your camera to your computer and without touching either with Nikon software and make sure they both import into LR without issue.

                                       

                                      Camera manufacturer's software usually doesn't understand raw files from another manufacturer because one of the jobs of the camera-manufacturer software is to render the JPG from raw in exactly the same way as the camera and that rendering is proprietary and cannot be known by outside entities.  Canon's DPP software doesn't work with Nikon NEFs, either.  Software from a third-party, such as Adobe Lightroom, has to be able to work with various manufacturers' raw files for anyone to pay any attention but at the cost of knowing things that are specific to a particular manufacturer, like you cannot see focus points for your NEFs in Lightroom, but I'd guess you can in the NX software which is produced or at least licensed by Nikon.

                                      • 16. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                        areohbee Community Member

                                        I shoot raw w/AdobeRGB and haven't had such problem.

                                         

                                        To be clear: although colorspace won't affect raw data, it *will* affect jpeg preview embedded in raw file:

                                         

                                        Colorspace affects raw file thusly:

                                        * Initial preview in Lightroom and other (non-Nikon) programs, and it will be wrong (slightly off), unless program is properly attending to colorspace metadata (there is *no* embedded icc profile, but there *is* metadata indicating how the jpeg preview image data should be interpreted) - Lightroom doesn't and most don't.

                                        * Initial preview in Nikon programs (and it will be right, since Nikon software properly attends to colorspace metadata) and camera back.

                                         

                                        PS - I wish Nikon just included the icc-profile in embedded jpeg preview and spared us a bit of grief, but they don't.

                                         

                                        Thankfully, they do include the icc profile in the jpeg sidecar.

                                         

                                        Rob

                                        • 17. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                          rextranter Community Member

                                          My tests proved that Nikon View NX (1) is the problem.  I shot 4 images - NEF and JPG in sRGB colorspace, and the same in Adobe 1998 colorspace.  I copied them directly via windows into a folder without viewing in Nikon View.  They all imported successfully into Lightroom.  Once viewed in Nikon View NX, I could not open the images shot in Adobe 1998 colorspace.   So there must be a similar issue as with Nikon Transfer, that the images are being affected by being opened in View NX.   I have not tried the same test using a direct copy into Nikon Capture NX (1). 

                                          Thanks

                                          • 18. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                            areohbee Community Member

                                            Surprising.

                                             

                                            I would not have expected that simply opening for view would alter the raw file, but NEFs are no more sacred to Nikon software than DNGs are in Adobe software, so I guess I should not be so surprised... - e.g. people have reported DNG file changes simply by clicking for view in Lightroom...

                                             

                                            PS - I suppose this is obvious now, but I can't help saying it: in the future, consider using the latest version for such software. I mean, compatibility and interoperability are prime reasons to release new versions...

                                             

                                            Rob

                                            • 19. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                              D Fosse Community Member

                                              So perhaps direct conversion to DNG on import isn't such a risky practice after all? I mean, there is always risk of corruption, proprietary or not.

                                               

                                              People always told me I'm crazy to convert and not keep the NEFs. But I just made a decision to not worry so much...

                                              • 20. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                                thedigitaldog CommunityMVP

                                                twenty_one wrote:

                                                 

                                                So perhaps direct conversion to DNG on import isn't such a risky practice after all? I mean, there is always risk of corruption, proprietary or not.

                                                 

                                                People always told me I'm crazy to convert and not keep the NEFs. But I just made a decision to not worry so much...

                                                Considering part of the covnersion to DNG is a validity test of the data, yes! If when doing this on import pops an error when converting, stop, try to recover the original raw from the card and fix it.

                                                 

                                                FWIW, I don't keep my original raws.

                                                • 21. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                                  rextranter Community Member

                                                  Actually, the DNG conversion was a solution for the damaged files and not part of my test. I used the DNG convertor to get the damaged files into Lightroom so I could work with them.  The conclusion was that I could not import specifically a D700  Nikon NEF or JPG image, in colorspace Adobe(1998) into Lightroom that had been first viewed in Nikon View NX (1).  I had previously been using a D300 and had shot everything in Adobe(1998) and had no problem.    But yes, DNG is pretty slick - except I cannot see DNG files in View NX which I use primarily for organizing and quick viewing - perhaps I can see DNG files in NX2 - haven't installed it yet.

                                                  • 22. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                                    ssprengel CommunityMVP

                                                    Converting to DNG precludes your using most camera-manufacturer software now or in the future since it is primarily a camera-native format only for very high-end specialty cameras ($10K+) or for use with Adobe products or some other third-party raw converters.   Most camera manufacturers who have gone to the trouble of making a proprietary raw format have no interest in also making a DNG.

                                                    • 23. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                                      thedigitaldog CommunityMVP

                                                      ssprengel wrote:

                                                       

                                                      Converting to DNG precludes your using most camera-manufacturer software now or in the future since it is primarily a camera-native format only for very high-end specialty cameras ($10K+) or for use with Adobe products or some other third-party raw converters.   Most camera manufacturers who have gone to the trouble of making a proprietary raw format have no interest in also making a DNG.

                                                      The trouble they've taken has by and large produced software I'm very sure I'll never use.

                                                      • 24. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                                        D Fosse Community Member

                                                        I am confident that DNG will prevail, just like VHS

                                                        • 25. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                                          areohbee Community Member

                                                          Andrew Rodney wrote:

                                                           

                                                          The trouble they've taken has by and large produced software I'm very sure I'll never use.

                                                          And you're sure no software will emerge in the future, from any company other than adobe, that you'd want to use if you could (and which might not work well with adobe-converted dngs I mean).

                                                           

                                                          In addition to camera manfacturer software, here are a few examples of software which has had trouble reading and/or updating adobe-converted dngs:

                                                          * Bibble

                                                          * DxO Optics

                                                          * CaptureOne

                                                          * ExifTool

                                                           

                                                          Want to be future proof? - don't toss your originals.

                                                           

                                                          Want to support Adobe and DNG exclusively? - do toss your originals.

                                                           

                                                          Rob

                                                          • 26. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                                            thedigitaldog CommunityMVP

                                                            Rob Cole wrote:

                                                            And you're sure no software will emerge in the future, from any company other than adobe, that you'd want to use if you could (and which might not work well with adobe-converted dngs I mean).

                                                            Actually my 2nd choose (Raw Developer) supports DNG. And no, I'd never use a software product that didn't support DNG. It's easy to do. DNG has far too many useful capabilities as a file format I'm not going to lose. As a potential customer for a new raw processor, the manufacture has to support the DNG format.

                                                            Want to support Adobe and DNG exclusively? - do toss your originals.

                                                            Thanks for that Rob, I'll follow that advise.

                                                            • 27. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                                              areohbee Community Member

                                                              To be clear:

                                                               

                                                              * Bibble

                                                              * DxO Optics

                                                              * CaptureOne

                                                              * ExifTool

                                                               

                                                              all support DNG.

                                                               

                                                              What they haven't always done is reliably support Adobe-converted DNGs - see the distinction?

                                                               

                                                              Note: Adobe was almost a year late publishing v1.4 DNG documentation.

                                                              Example: @v9.25 ExifTool fully supports v1.4 DNGs. For most of the year before that: not so much...

                                                               

                                                              My aim: not to persuade. I couldn't care less if anybody does or does not convert to DNG, or throws away their originals. I do care if people misunderstand due to mis-information. And to be clear: I'm not accusing anyone of mis-informing here, but there is a lot of misinformation in this forum by zealots.

                                                               

                                                              I want people to know: if you convert to DNG, and especially if you toss your originals, you may have problems if you try to use those converted DNGs in other software (other than correctly updated Adobe software I mean).

                                                               

                                                              Cheers,

                                                              Rob

                                                              • 28. Re: D700 files shot in Adobe RGB colorspace
                                                                thedigitaldog CommunityMVP


                                                                I want people to know: if you convert to DNG, and especially if you toss your originals, you may have problems if you try to use those converted DNGs in other software (other than correctly updated Adobe software I mean)

                                                                Fair enough.