23 Replies Latest reply: May 17, 2013 10:18 AM by alexdejesus RSS

    NTSC Project Export to PAL?

    alexdejesus Community Member

      I have a project that I edited in Premiere and a DVD project designed in Encore CS6 - all in NTSC. A client in the UK needs a copy in PAL. What is the best way to approach this? Encore does not allow me to change the standard in Settings or Prefs. The DVD project is made up of mostly Dynamically linked Premiere sequences, shot and edited in NTSC

        • 1. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
          Stan Jones MVP

          Yes, a project is locked as what it was created as re PAL vs NTSC.

           

          Send the client an NTSC disk and see if it plays okay. All I have seen here and in the PR forums suggest that almost all PAL DVD players play NTSC disks.

          • 2. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
            Ann Bens ACP/MVPs

            Most dvd players here in Europe play ntsc dvd's without any problem.

            • 3. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
              John T Smith MVP

              If you find that you do need a new Pal project, I think you will need to convert outside of PPro/Encore

               

              Convert NTSC <--> PAL http://forums.adobe.com/thread/995779 has information on that

              • 4. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                alexdejesus Community Member

                It's the UK. Pretty sure they don't play NTSC. Now, I can export MPEG2-DVD from Premiere in PAL using AME. BUt if I'm using Dynamic links, there is no way to cross convert? Why do you say convert outside of Adobe? 

                • 5. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                  John T Smith MVP

                  >Why do you say convert outside of Adobe?

                   

                  Click the link I provided in #3

                   

                  My understanding (I do not convert) is that neither PPro or Encore converts between the two formats

                   

                  But, by all means, give it a try and see what happens

                  • 6. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                    alexdejesus Community Member

                    Seems to encode out of PPro/AME in PAL. Can't check quality until later tonight. We'll just have to create another DVD project.

                    • 7. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                      John T Smith MVP

                      Sounds good... as I said, I don't do that, so only had the information from that link, about other software

                      • 8. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                        Ann Bens ACP/MVPs

                        Alex DeJesus wrote:

                         

                        It's the UK. Pretty sure they don't play NTSC.

                        Is not the UK in Europe?

                        I am in Holland and no difficulty with ntsc disks.

                        • 9. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                          Stan Jones MVP

                          Alex, I started to say, see Ann's post 2 again. At a minimum, even if  you reauthor to PAL, send the client an NTSC version to see if it works on his equipment.

                          • 10. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                            alexdejesus Community Member

                            Yes I plan to send both. I'm curious to know

                            • 11. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                              Stan Jones MVP

                              Please let us know what you find!

                              • 12. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                                neil wilkes MVP

                                Alex DeJesus wrote:

                                 

                                I have a project that I edited in Premiere and a DVD project designed in Encore CS6 - all in NTSC. A client in the UK needs a copy in PAL. What is the best way to approach this? Encore does not allow me to change the standard in Settings or Prefs. The DVD project is made up of mostly Dynamically linked Premiere sequences, shot and edited in NTSC

                                Hi Alex.

                                 

                                Odds are around 99% certain you will not need a separate PAL version.

                                Nearly all modern players have no trouble outputting either pure NTSC or else they will convert on the fly to PAL-60 which is much the same thing.

                                Either way, converting NTSC footage to PAL is a long, troublesome process that may well fail anyway.

                                • 13. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                                  moccamaximum Community Member

                                  After some experimenting this workaround did it for me:

                                   

                                  1.save all your NTSC Menüs in a custom Folder with Menu>Create Template (PC:ALT+CTRL+M)

                                  2.create a new PAL Project and in it a new Set in the Library

                                  3.new Object: select all the .em files you previously created in the custom Folder

                                  4.select the template and choose, create new Menu

                                   

                                  you can rename the .em files to .xml and see how they are structured.

                                  A typical .em file looks like this:

                                   

                                  <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

                                  <MenuTemplate xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="MenuTemplate.xsd">

                                      <Menu file="LanguageSelection.psd" name="LanguageSelection" uniqueID="" aspectRatio="16:9" animateButtons="false" holdForever="true" loops="Forever">

                                          <EndAction command="stop"/>

                                          <ButtonList>

                                              <Button name="PORTUGESE" uniqueID="" topLayerID="326" bottomLayerID="316">

                                                  <Link command="goto" gotoUniqueID=""/>

                                              </Button>

                                              <Button name="GREEK" uniqueID="" topLayerID="315" bottomLayerID="305">

                                                  <Link command="goto" gotoUniqueID=""/>

                                              </Button>

                                              <Button name="FRANCAISE" uniqueID="" topLayerID="262" bottomLayerID="252">

                                                  <Link command="goto" gotoUniqueID=""/>

                                              </Button>

                                              <Button name="ESPANOL" uniqueID="" topLayerID="304" bottomLayerID="294">

                                                  <Link command="goto" gotoUniqueID=""/>

                                              </Button>

                                              <Button name="ENGLISH" uniqueID="" topLayerID="280" bottomLayerID="263">

                                                  <Link command="goto" gotoUniqueID=""/>

                                              </Button>

                                          </ButtonList>

                                      </Menu>

                                  </MenuTemplate>

                                   

                                  Sadly, the Linkage is  not preserved, so for the moment the navigation has to be rebuilt manually.

                                  But you will get all your Assets in your Project folder, and encore doesn`t care that they are NTSC.

                                   

                                  CAVEAT: The Auto-Conversion Encore produces with the video material is bad, so if you want to have decent quality you will still have to do the reencoding of your actual sourcematerial outside of encore

                                  • 14. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                                    Stan Jones MVP

                                    1.save all your NTSC Menüs in a custom Folder with Menu>Create Template (PC:ALT+CTRL+M)

                                    2.create a new PAL Project and in it a new Set in the Library

                                    3.new Object: select all the .em files you previously created in the custom Folder

                                    4.select the template and choose, create new Menu

                                    These menus will come in as PAL sizes, with an incorrect par. Encore will distort them, but I suspect very little. Did you observe this.

                                     

                                    Yes, the linkage of the menu buttons is not retained, were the button names okay?

                                     

                                    Thanks for reporting your method.

                                    • 15. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                                      moccamaximum Community Member

                                      These menus will come in as PAL sizes, with an incorrect par. Encore will distort them, but I suspect very little. Did you observe this?

                                      The distortion is barely visible, nevertheless I went through the trouble to manually convert every psd from 576p to 480p. (Which you could even do with a photoshop macro/action automatically)

                                       

                                      Yes, the linkage of the menu buttons is not retained, were the button names okay?

                                      The button names were conserved, indeed. Rebuilding the navigation between the menus was a matter of minutes (for a project with 40+ menus and 150+ Buttons)

                                       

                                      My guess at this point is that the key to preserve the details lies inside the ncor-project file. It would be very helpful if Adobe would decide to open Encore up to Extensions like Flash/Photoshop/Illustrator.

                                      • 16. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                                        neil wilkes MVP

                                        I would have thought the distortion will greatly depend on the actual background art & the button SPHL image.

                                        Think about just how much you are changing things - losing almost 100 pixels, and changing their shape - and it is inconceivable there will not be distortions.

                                        Text will be the worst affected.

                                         

                                        If working in Widescreen you can run at 960x540 in square pixels and scale when happy in Phoitoshop - this will work better, I think.

                                        • 17. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                                          moccamaximum Community Member

                                          If working in Widescreen you can run at 960x540 in square pixels and scale when happy in Phoitoshop - this will work better, I think.

                                           

                                          Agreed, working with squarepixels and having a resolution buffer is a huge advantage. For this reason alone PAL>NTSC is probably better working than the other way round.

                                          • 18. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                                            neil wilkes MVP

                                            moccamaximum wrote:

                                             

                                            If working in Widescreen you can run at 960x540 in square pixels and scale when happy in Phoitoshop - this will work better, I think.

                                             

                                            Agreed, working with squarepixels and having a resolution buffer is a huge advantage. For this reason alone PAL>NTSC is probably better working than the other way round.

                                            Yes, but there is a gotcha here - PAL is actually higher definition than NTSC, and we throw some of this away when converting.......

                                            If there is the slightest chance you need an NTSC version then you are better off working in that mode alone instead of doubling up costs by producing separate PAL/NTSC versions.,

                                            It used to matter, but these days is siomply does not as there are almost no players that cannot output either pure NTSC or else PAL-60.

                                             

                                            Trouble is - as you know - it is a lot harder to go the other way & add extra pixels going from NTSC>PAL. There are ways, of course, but you will always need to blow the image up.

                                            PAL Widescreen is the most distorted of all as well, with it's almost 1.4:1 PAR.

                                            • 19. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                                              alexdejesus Community Member

                                              Sorry mocca, this is WAY over my head. I did not realize I needed PAL menus, only PAL video assets. I thought that if I created an Adobe project in PAL that Encore would encode the menus accordingly.

                                               

                                              Neil, I am able to export PAL from an NTSC sequence in Premiere. Or I can create a PAL sequence and cut and paste from the NTSC sequence already edited - without timeline markers, though. This is pretty frustrating stuff to keep track of. And I have no idea it will playback in England.

                                              • 20. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                                                alexdejesus Community Member

                                                Ann, you may be correct that NTSC will play in the UK, but my client asked for PAL specifically. And he sounded pretty savvy to me. I will still send NTSC disks out of curiosity, though.

                                                • 21. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                                                  moccamaximum Community Member

                                                  If your DVD is not mulitlingual (Because FLV can have no multiple audiotracks) and you only want to show the final product to your client, without the requirement that it has absolutely to be played back in a 10+ years old PAL-only Player, you could always go for Webexport(Flash).

                                                  If you have never tried it before: at best quality it pretty much is indistinguishable from the real deal.

                                                  • 22. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                                                    neil wilkes MVP

                                                    moccamaximum wrote:

                                                     

                                                    If your DVD is not mulitlingual (Because FLV can have no multiple audiotracks) and you only want to show the final product to your client, without the requirement that it has absolutely to be played back in a 10+ years old PAL-only Player, you could always go for Webexport(Flash).

                                                    If you have never tried it before: at best quality it pretty much is indistinguishable from the real deal.

                                                     

                                                    Flash excport is not a DVD and is not supported on APple devices either so not a great answer. Likewise, this will not play on any DVD players either.

                                                     

                                                    Alex DeJesus wrote:

                                                     

                                                    Sorry mocca, this is WAY over my head. I did not realize I needed PAL menus, only PAL video assets. I thought that if I created an Adobe project in PAL that Encore would encode the menus accordingly.

                                                     

                                                    Neil, I am able to export PAL from an NTSC sequence in Premiere. Or I can create a PAL sequence and cut and paste from the NTSC sequence already edited - without timeline markers, though. This is pretty frustrating stuff to keep track of. And I have no idea it will playback in England.

                                                     

                                                    Hi Alex.

                                                     

                                                    I understand your pain, believe me - and if your client is specifically asking for PAL, then that is what you have to deliver.

                                                    Exporting a PAL asset from an NTSC sequence is indeed possible in PPro, but be very very careful as the frame rate differs from the NTSC, and you will have to check playback very carefully to make sure you are not just dropping frames which could result in twitchy playback. (NTSC is 30fps, PAL is 25 - all sorts of room for catastrophe there)

                                                    There are settings in the render dialogue that can help with scaling (your footage will be scaled as well) and different render frame rates compared to sequence frame rates.

                                                    Just tick the "Maximum render quality" and "Maximum depth" options & cross fingers & toes.

                                                    Personally I have had much more success with After Effects than PPro for this type of work - the thing to remember in AE conversions is to be absolutely sure ytou set the option in t he render dialogue to "composition length" instead of "Whole timeline" or whatever it is called (memory fails me right now) or else your run time will change. To explain what I mean, we recently had to create a title where there were 5 film clips, one in NTSC, 2 in PAL and 2 more in 4 and 12 fps stop-frame animations. Without the "composition length" option ticked the thing simply ran out a hell of a lot faster than it should have done but with that option checked, AE just created new frames and the results were great.

                                                     

                                                    Menus also have PAL resolution of course, as well as the different PAR (Pixel Aspect Ratio) earlier discussed. Scaling these will ruin text in mnore cases than not & t he best approach is to rebuild all menus from scratch - it is actually quite simples in PhotoShop - just open your original NTSC screen, create a new PAL menu template from the presets given and then (after turning off SPHL layers) merge or flatten the original NTSC screen, and then drag the background onto the blank PAL menu, hit CTRL-T (make it a scalable object) and resize to fit your new screen - you may well need to fill in the blanks - and then just drop your button layers in & tweak.

                                                     

                                                    Final option is to check with client & ask them why they need PAL - which I have to congfess raises one question in my mind:

                                                    WHen you shot the footage, had you been asked to supply NTSC or PAL originally? If they asked for NTSC, then you should charge them for the reworking to PAL.

                                                    However, if they wanted just PAL in the first place then you have to bite the bullet on this one.

                                                    • 23. Re: NTSC Project Export to PAL?
                                                      alexdejesus Community Member

                                                      He came to Las Vegas from the UK to compete in a bodybuilding contest and won the heavyweight division. If you saw him, you would understand why I will give him exactly what he wants. Lol! He just wants to show his students back home on a player at his gym, which I assume is a few years old.

                                                       

                                                      I was wondering what else was different between PAL and NTSC besides the frame rate. I thought frame size was the same at 16:9. I created a new PAL DVD project in Encore and created new titles from templates I created in the NTSC project. The menus look correct in the Encore monitor window. They are very basic, and with a black background so you couldn't tell if it didn't size up

                                                       

                                                      In Premiere, I created new PAL sequences withinn the original NTSC project and copied and pasted the timelines over to the PAL sequences. The original footage is NTSC, but i assumed the transcoding would convert frame rate on export to/from Encore. In Encore, I dynamically linked the PAL sequences from Premiere.

                                                       

                                                      This is taking WAY more time than I expected. The entire show is 8 hours on four DVDs, so you can imagine what I'm going through for just one person - but he's a very BIG person.  Probably will never offer PAL again