23 Replies Latest reply: May 16, 2014 2:38 AM by Matt Lee Andrews RSS

    Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?

    PeteGould Community Member

      I work in video production and work on tight deadlines with a lot of responsibility.  Let's imagine a typical scenario.

       

      There's a project that has been shot in multiple locations on an overall budget of, say, $75,000. It is to be presented at a huge live event on a Friday morning. It is now Thursday night - the night before the live event.  There has been a last minute change because one of the employees prominently featured in the project was just arrested for a crime and has been fired.  It is therefore essential that their appearance be deleted and a substitute inserted in their place; the piece cannot be screened if they are in it.  (This hypothetical is based on an actual prior experience of ours on a real project for a real client).

       

      So here we are.  Thursday night.  Project screening LIVE tomorrow morning.  And for some unknown reason, Creative Cloud - fully paid up - decides that we are not an authorized site and refuses to run.  Neither copy on neither machine (because the problem is not a local software problem, it is an authorization problem on the Adobe server).  For sake of argument, presume that we are absolutely in the right: we are fully paid up.

       

      If we fail to deliver the project on time for the company's live event, the entire purpose for which it was produced is gone.  Not only will the company not pay us for the postproduction, they may very well sue us to recover the production costs, since the failure to deliver is at our end due to our software failing to operate.

       

      My question is: who holds this liability?  From what I read in the Creative Cloud agreement, it is 100% us.  Adobe, despite having caused the problem, cannot be added as an additional defendant and none of the liability can be transferred to them.  This despite the fact that if we were still a CS user, even if CS somehow failed on one machine we could use it on the other and finish the project.  But by moving to CC, Adobe has subjected us to a single point of failure: the authorization server that decides if we're a legitimate site or not.  None of this matters.  It is we, not Adobe, who will potentially be sued by the client for the field production costs.

       

      True or false?

       

      And if true: do you believe this is a fair, reasonable and equitable outcome?  If so, why?

        • 1. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
          Romsinha Employee Hosts

          Request you to please provide me your adobe order number for the subscription you purchased so that we may investigate on it.

          • 2. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
            W_J_T Community Member

            Hi Pete, I unfortunately do not have information to provide a response, but I find your situation and question very interesting as it is one that could happen to anyone using the Creative Cloud in the deadline driven industries most try to utilize the software for. I wouldn't be surprised that if somewhere in the "fine print" Adobe absolves itself completely of such situations when one signs up for a subscription. Thusly placing all Cloud failure responsibilities upon the Cloud customers even though situations such as these can and will occur that are completely out of the customers control due to the nature of this new "flagship" cloud service. I am sorry for your untimely misfortune but I am very much interested to know the resolution of your troubles as well as a formal response from Adobe as to the legalities and liabilities of these types of "Service Outage" situations. Please keep us posted as to what you find out here or otherwise.

            • 3. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
              PeteGould Community Member

              We have not yet purchased a subscription to Creative Cloud.  I am asking a question the answer to which is part of our decision making process.

              • 4. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                PeteGould Community Member

                Exactly my concern, W_J_T.  We face deadline-driven situations ALL THE TIME.  I had one two weeks ago involving a municipality that engaged us to create the keynote video for its mayor’s State of the City presentation.  While the budget wasn’t $75K it was still in the five figures, they still had last-minute change after last-minute change, and failure to deliver was not an option.  The final edit was completed at 11:30 PM and it took five hours to encode the file for a noon presentation the next day.  If we had failed to deliver I have no doubt that we never would have been paid.  And I have heard a number of disturbing stories now that all tell me about Cloud subscribers being misidentified as unpaid and therefore unable to run their programs.  If that had happened to us in the hypothetical OR the one from a couple of weeks ago it would have been disastrous.  The difference between the couple-of-weeks ago case and the older case upon which I based the hypothetical is that in the recent case, we did all the shooting and production ourselves, so our loss would be purely one of income (though it would certainly hurt).  In the older case, we only did the post: another company did the field work.  So in THAT case we could actually have been out serious money if they came after us for the cost of field production.

                • 5. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                  W_J_T Community Member

                  PeteGould wrote:

                   

                  - Exactly my concern, W_J_T.  We face deadline-driven situations ALL THE TIME.

                  - And I have heard a number of disturbing stories now that all tell me about Cloud subscribers being misidentified as unpaid and therefore unable to run their programs.

                   

                  Hi Pete, yes unfortunately for Creative Cloud customers this can and does occur. Just search and read through out this forum and there are all types of issues and problems with this "rent over the network" concept. One would think that these types of issues would not be happening since the cloud has been out for a while now. But sadly like some long outstanding bugs in various Adobe software titles this too could be a long standing problem to consider for customers. Potential and existing customers need to consider these types of "service outage" events as most work within deadline driven environments which themselves hold there own frustrations and stress without possible occurrences like these leading to a complete potential failure of a pending project and its monetary outcome for the end user company and it's clients.

                   

                  Again, this is a great question to be answered by Adobe.

                  • 6. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                    W_J_T Community Member

                    W_J_T wrote:

                    Again, this is a great question to be answered by Adobe.

                     

                    Adobe?

                    • 7. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                      PeteGould Community Member

                      W_J_T,

                       

                      Don't look now, but I'm hearing nothing but crickets....  Do you suppose it's possible that the true answer to this question is one they're not comfortable giving?

                      • 8. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                        W_J_T Community Member

                        I am not sure, but I will say I do find it interesting which thread topics get replies and which go without consideration. I find it to be no coincidence and it should be pretty obvious to others whom read through the threads also. Reminds me a government run television (in some countries) and the story they want you to believe through controlled media.

                        • 9. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                          Serge_SF Community Member

                          This is really important question. Since the beginning of PC industry we all have read that famous phrases such as "... the software is provided AS IS" and "Adobe and it's subsidaries DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES...". The current CC LA contains the following words:

                           

                          ONLINE SERVICES, AND CERTIFICATE AUTHORITY SERVICES ARE PROVIDED AS-IS AND WITH ALL FAULTS.

                           

                          So the answer is quite clear, dude. Adding this "constantly be-online" requirement makes things even worse. In addition to hardware failure, Windows failure, media failures, now we got internet connection failure and Adobe servers failures, thanks Adobe!

                           

                          BTW, current CS6 software, dispite it's offline status, can stop working ANYTIME due to license check failure. We, in our production company, see it many times every month. Just yesterday Adobe Acrobat stop working for whatever reason (five times before it stops after installing Update), may be moon phase is wrong or the raining day, who knows? So we HAVE to deauthorise Adobe software on this particular PC and authorise it again, this solves problem as Adobe's Tech Support suggests. Of course, this PC MUST be online at this time!

                           

                          So we all ALREADY have this problem right now, with "offline" CS6.

                          • 10. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                            PeteGould Community Member

                            Hi Serge_SF -

                             

                            Well, I've used Adobe software since the 1980s and professionally since the early 1990s, and while I'm sure it's technically possible I have never had an installed Adobe software system decide it was not authorized to run.  So that event is at least extremely rare - and if the software is installed on two or more computer the odds are definitely something I can live with.

                             

                            This seems to be different.  There is a central Adobe server all installed systems reach out to for permission to run (rather Borg-like).  If that system malfunctions, NONE of them will run.  And I'm reading complaints where that's already happening.

                             

                            So Adobe made this move to increase their own income and implemented in a way that could cause us financial harm (to the point of possibly bankrupting us) and then ensured that liability was ours alone?  Is that how it is?

                             

                            Will they at least have a free 24x7 call center to deal with such issues for a company on a tight deadline experiencing authorization issues?

                            • 11. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                              W_J_T Community Member

                              PeteGould wrote:

                               

                              Will they at least have a free 24x7 call center to deal with such issues for a company on a tight deadline experiencing authorization issues?

                               

                              Have you ever had the wonderful opportunity to experience Adobe's (cough, cough) world class online chat and phone support concerning customer service? Judging by many current and recent threads I would say the Creative Cloud has made each even more entertaining and above all frustrating to encounter. Customer service with Adobe sorely lags behind marketing when it comes to initiatives of importance and what is deemed priority.

                              • 12. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                                canoli99 Community Member

                                just a reminder folks you don't have to be "constantly online." Annual memberships - from what I understand you can go 90 days without online access so in the hypothetical scenario the OP presents - I'm not sure if could happen.

                                 

                                Maybe if you were at Day 89 of no internet connection and your project was due on Day 90 and on that day you reestablished your web connection...immediately Adobe misidentifies you as a lapsed subscription...I can see how it could get "exciting" for a few minutes.

                                 

                                Hopefully there will be 24/7 center dedicated to CC subscription issues that can straighten out problems quickly. In my experience customer service is extremely hit or miss...generally they're more interested in selling you a CC subscription than fixing your issue - but providing you have enough time and patience I've always had my issues resolved.

                                 

                                Anyway...in no case will Adobe be paying for lossed wages due to internet failure. Does anyone imagine Adobe is any less sophisticated then your run-o-the-mill ISP?

                                 

                                Perhaps if Adobe let us initiate the authorization handshake every few months...maybe that could help? At least it would offer us some control.

                                 

                                The web is not perfect; downtime will occur. Your recourse? Have a "Plan B" ready to go, one that doesn't rely on Adobe's servers. My plan B is to avoid the CC completely for as long as possible.

                                • 13. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                                  RobertoLLw

                                  Adobe has it in the terms. They are not responsible. In other words your out of luck. Enjoy the cloud.

                                   

                                  Also no refunds. Read the terms

                                  • 14. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                                    Chazinbermuda Community Member

                                    You must have been reading my mind because this is one of my long list of things that is dangerous about the cloud... yes local software and computers can crash and fail ... but you can move to another machine quickly .. and the user controls the software... the software doesnt control the user...

                                     

                                    Here are some others?

                                     

                                    What happens if files of a sensitive nature get stolen or corrupted in the cloud?

                                     

                                    What happens if a government wishes to view files going into the cloud?... example you are doing a news story in India of a sensitive nature... the idian government informs Adobe we want to look... will adobe say no?

                                     

                                    What happens when the cloud gets hacked?

                                     

                                    What would happen if a large corporation feels their logo or branding is being used in a project.. could they in the future force adobe to prevent this and start censoring what we create?

                                     

                                    there are so many things that the cloud brings that demand that the cloud should be optional and that owned software be brought back...And this uproar is not just an Adobe issue.. users see it for what it is... the start of large corporations hiding behind the term cloud to monopolies and gouge its customers...

                                    • 15. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                                      geophrian

                                      I've actually run into a similar issue, so your question is not merely hypothetical.

                                       

                                      Recently I began shooting on Sony's new codec for 4K and Adobe CC is the only option for this. I've been trying for over 3 weeks now to get a subscription but still no success and everyone in tech support has been unable to help fix this. So now, my tiral versions are about to expire and all the projects I've been working on over the past month are soon to be unusable.

                                       

                                      I just wasted another 2.5 hours on tech support with no success. I've tried making payments using Firefox, Chrome, and Safari, no success. I've tried on different computers and no success. Here's the message I get every time: http://sporkproductions.com/message.jpg Yet, I never get any message from them and it never works.

                                       

                                      So, to your point, Adobe's support network for CC is absolutely abysmal and since I can't even purchase a license I have no faith that once I get it the license will hold or there will not be serious billing issues in the future. I still use CS6 as much as possible but sadly I can't use any footage from my new camera without CC (or FCPX which is starting to look less terrible after all these problems with Adobe).

                                       

                                      To aswer your question from my experiences: Yes, you will have billing issues that ruin your projects and piss of clients. No, adobe will not help you at all, and they definitely won't hold any liability.

                                      • 16. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                                        geophrian Community Member

                                        I cannot avoid CC due to video codecs that are only available on CC and not CS6, and I've been dealing with obscene billing issues the past 3 weeks. The Cloud is a nightmare.

                                        • 17. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                                          lasvideo CommunityMVP

                                          Almost 38,000 folks have signed.They don't like Adobe Creative Cloud licensing.Show @Adobe how you feel. https://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creati ve-cloud-subscription-model

                                           

                                          Another more fiscal way to show @Adobe you dont like the CC licensing scheme.http://adobe2014.tumblr.com #adobe2014

                                          • 18. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                                            geophrian Community Member

                                            Thanks! Signed the petition. I don't have Twitter but will post to Facebook. Sadly, I sort of need CC since the codec for my new camera only works on it. I wish I could boycot since that's the best recourse we have. Thanks for pushing this though and I'll try to find a way to do a work-around so I can join the eforts.

                                            • 19. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                                              amhsammy

                                              I was considering on using creative cloud, but I had no idea adobe was having so many problems. Thanks for the post, and the heads up! I'll follow the links you've provided, and check them out!

                                              • 20. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                                                yuhong Community Member

                                                Bumped up due to an actual outage.

                                                • 21. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                                                  HFJ

                                                  I am a new paid up member to CC and only 4 weeks in and a major IT issue has already resulted in lost business opportunities for my firm. Good luck in getting anyone from ADOBE's customer support team to give you a straight answer. For 6 hours yesterday i went back and forth with there service teams who didn't have a clue as to what the problem was. They couldn't answer any questions, I also noticed ADOBE didn't post any communication on there website about the issue. No business continuity planning in place and i doubt you will get any credible answers that will give you any confidence ADOBE will deliver a reliable service in the cloud.

                                                  • 22. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                                                    evew75 Community Member

                                                    La communication d'Adobe Worldwide durant cette panne a été désastreuse !

                                                    • 23. Re: Who holds the liability for a Creative Cloud failure?
                                                      Matt Lee Andrews

                                                      It certainly can happen - it did yesterday in the global outage that happened. Everything was down for 24 hours worldwide.

                                                       

                                                      I needed to use Muse to work on a website I'm delivering and I couldn't load it. At first it asked me to log in, but after repeatedly using the correct details I googled it and found it was down. Oddly I could use Lightroom, Photoshop and surprisingly I could use the desktop Cloud app, but I couldn't use Muse. And this is supposed to work offline for 30 days.

                                                       

                                                      No apology on the Cloud website either, it's on adobe.com. Bloody awful catastrophic service Adobe, and the OP's hypothetical situation could very well have been us on another week.

                                                       

                                                      Matt Andrews