14 Replies Latest reply on Jun 12, 2013 6:29 PM by funkytwig

    Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)

    funkytwig Level 1

      Hi, was not sure where to ask about this but as it is specificaly to do with using the monitor for video editing htought I would try here.

       

      I have been using the monitor for Video Editing and gradeing but even on the lowest brightness it is too bright.  I am also finding the reds are far too vivid.  Is anyone else using this monitor, are they having simeler problems.

       

      Mayme it needs calidrating but as it is a wide gamut monitore the calibrater will cost £150.  Before I get one I am trying ot work out if monitor is not working properly (i.e. would buying the calibrator be a waste of money).

       

      Regards,

      Ben

        • 1. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
          John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          What does your video look like when you make a DVD or BluRay and view it on a TV?

          • 2. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
            Brett Delmage Level 1

            I use the same monitor, and a 2711 also.

             

            You cannot use wide gamut mode (i.e. Adobe RGB) for video editing.

             

            Change the monitor to sRGB mode: Menu > Color Settings > Preset Modes > sRGB.

             

            That will get you much closer. Then you can tweak the monitor settings.

             

            Brett

            • 3. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
              funkytwig Level 1

              My plasma seems to have lots of clever stuff in it and it kind of looks OK but tried playing it on lost of computers (including Mac laptop) and it is VERRY dark. 

               

              On screen levels of around 50% make the image look about right, there should be 100% ish (black level).

               

              Ben

              • 4. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
                funkytwig Level 1

                Brett,

                 

                It does not solve the problem.  The colours look better but still as dark.

                 

                Ben

                • 5. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
                  Rallymax-forum Level 3

                  Agreed - and I have the exact same monitor.

                  But you also have to change the Windows "Color Management" (Start-> Control Panel) to be sRGB mode otherwise it sends the wrong colorspace to the screen.

                   

                  Once I got that right it looks great and is very close in calibration to my reference monitor.

                  • 6. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
                    funkytwig Level 1

                    Ime using  a Mac.

                     

                    Ben

                     

                    PS so what is the poiunt in wider colourspaces, or more to the pint why get a monitor that suports them.

                     

                    Ben

                    • 7. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
                      Rallymax-forum Level 3

                      funkytwig wrote:

                       

                      Ime using  a Mac.

                       

                      Ben

                       

                      PS so what is the poiunt in wider colourspaces, or more to the pint why get a monitor that suports them.

                       

                      Ben

                       

                      The visible spectrum that humans can see is much bigger than what is currently projectable.

                       

                      Back in the 60's when color tv started the phospors available to make RGB where a small triangle of possible mix.

                      This is rec.601.

                       

                      When HD came along technology had improved (plasma, lcd pixels) so that the RGB that can be chosen from is much broader (ie more real).

                      This HD is rec.709

                       

                      Growing from that is UHDTV which uses rec.2020

                      If you saw The Hobbit or the latest Bond film Skyfall in a 4K digital theatre you will see the AMAZING new gamut of color possible to project. The realism it adds is quite amazing.

                       

                      Here is rec2020 vs HD (which is also basically sRGB).

                      So in a long winded answer, that's the value of a wider gamut. If you're editing in HD or SD setting your graphics driver and display to sRGB (since is 99.9999% the same as HD rec.709) is perfect.

                      If you're doing 2K, 4K etc then it's a different story.

                       

                      NOTE That the monitor you're looking at this post on is crushing all these graph colors to sRGB. The real "green-est", "blue-est" and "red-est" can only be seen looking outside.

                      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/CIExy1931_Rec_2020_and_Rec_709.svg/500px-CIExy1931_Rec_2020_and_Rec_709.svg.png

                      Diagram of the CIE 1931 color space that shows the Rec. 2020 (UHDTV) color space in the outer triangle and Rec. 709 (HDTV) color space in the inner triangle. Both Rec. 2020 and Rec. 709 use Illuminant D65 for the white point.

                      • 8. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
                        funkytwig Level 1

                        Thanks for that, verry interesting (and usefull). 

                         

                        OK, so if I grade HD with DiVinche Resolve I should a greater colourspace.  I was asking about premiere as that is also what I do (as well as Resolve) but if HD is a wider colourspace why use sRGB for premiere (whitch has some quite nice basic grading whitch I use when people do not have the budget for full grade). 

                         

                        The other reason I ask here is the Devinche Comunity do not seem up for helping with Web Gradfing (where monitors like the 2410 are ideal and reference monitors are overkill).  There may be a bit of snobery going on;(.

                         

                        So I guess the real question is is the reason the monitor is proving useless for grading with Resolve because I need to get a wide guant colibrator like the x-rite display pro?

                        • 9. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
                          Rallymax-forum Level 3

                          I think you misunderstood.

                          HD is practically the same as sRGB.

                          From the Wikipedia Rec.709 page:

                          [Rec. 709 is written as if it specifies the capture and transfer characteristics of HDTV encoding - that is, as if it were scene-referred. However, in practice it is output (display) referred with the convention of a 2.4-power function display [2.35 power function in EBU recommendations]. (Rec. 709 and sRGB share the same primary chromaticities and white point chromaticity; however, sRGB is explicitly output (display) referred with an average gamma of 2.2.) [6]

                          ]

                           

                          So if you are grading HD you should have a HD/sRGB display.

                           

                          I can only assume Resolve users have wider gamut displays to do 2K and up cor grading. Eg grade 4k footage in a wider gamut before crushing it to rec709 HD for the bluray.

                           

                          Wide gamut is popular with photoshop users because paper can print a wider gamut than sRGB (this why AdobeRGB exists).

                           

                          IMO there is a lot of mis-information and snobbery from PPro and Resolve users who dont have a technical background as to how those software packages were coded. They say use a calibrated reference monitor without understanding what is possible with a regular monitor. I'm lucky that I crossed from editing to plugin development so I now know every little detail of how all the editing modes work and can back it with facts.

                          • 10. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
                            Brett Delmage Level 1

                            Rallymax-forum wrote:

                             

                             

                            PS so what is the poiunt in wider colourspaces, or more to the pint why get a monitor that suports them.

                             

                            Ben

                             

                            The visible spectrum that humans can see is much bigger than what is currently projectable.

                             

                            Wide gamut monitors are also useful for editing still photographic images for printing. Modern colour printers can print colours that are beyond those that can be displayed on a normal sRGB monitor. A wide gamut (Adobe RGB) monitor can allow you to see more closely what you will be able to print (keeping in mind the differences between transmissive and reflective viewing).

                             

                            I edit images both for fine art printing, and edit video, and being able to use the Dell monitor in either colour space is very useful. But I do have to choose the correct mode!

                            Brett

                            • 11. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
                              funkytwig Level 1

                              OK, so basicaly unless I am grading 4K my 2410 is overkill.  I am currently using my Dell Ultrashart U2311H and seem to be gertting good reslult, I guess there is a leson to be learnt here.

                               

                              BYW if a get a wide guant calibrator will I be able to sort out my U2410, would like to use it as it has a higher res.

                               

                              In terms of reference mnonitors for 'broadcast' its is a lot to do with consistency across the prodduction pipline.  If you have several places where the program is viewed and tewwked for diferent purposes (i.e. grading and encoding for satelite etc.) there is a tendency for corrections to be undone, aparently even with reference monitors there is not total consistency and this can be a problem.  I think this is why the Sony BVM became a standard and why new beter technologies take a while to become used (untill everyone is prepaired to change).

                               

                              Ben

                              • 12. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
                                funkytwig Level 1

                                Was chatting on the LIft Gamma Gain forun and got this

                                 

                                "The two quotes in your post are both either a little wrong or VERY wrong. There are not unimportant differences between sRGB and Rec709, or even more importantly Rec1886. And neither Hobbit nor Skyfall or any other film; 4K, 2K or otherwise were Rec2020, you've never seen a display or image in Rec2020. The Internet is a horrible source of information. "

                                http://www.liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-to-grading-looking-for-monitor-re commendations.365/page-2#post-7782

                                 

                                Does not help me as such but thought it may be of intererst.

                                 

                                Ben

                                • 13. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
                                  Rallymax-forum Level 3

                                  funkytwig wrote:

                                   

                                  Was chatting on the LIft Gamma Gain forun and got this

                                   

                                  "The two quotes in your post are both either a little wrong or VERY wrong. There are not unimportant differences between sRGB and Rec709, or even more importantly Rec1886. And neither Hobbit nor Skyfall or any other film; 4K, 2K or otherwise were Rec2020, you've never seen a display or image in Rec2020. The Internet is a horrible source of information. "

                                  http://www.liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-to-grading-lo oking-for-monitor-recommendations.365/page-2#post-7782

                                   

                                  Does not help me as such but thought it may be of intererst.

                                   

                                  Ben

                                   

                                  Sigh. I knew that when I put that bit in over-simplifying the explanation some little troll would pop up to make some snarky comment.

                                   

                                  OK, since you are counter-asking..

                                  Yes, those films are not in rec.2020.

                                  Digital Cinema Projectors get their content in Digital Cinema Packages. Those DCP packages use the CIE 1931 XYZ colorspace. That is a triangle that can express every human visible color in the Chroma RG plot....

                                  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/CIE1931_rgxy.png/768px-CIE1931_rgxy.png

                                  Diagram in CIE rg chromaticity space showing the construction of the triangle specifying the CIE XYZ color space. The triangle Cb-Cg-Cr is just the xy=(0,0),(0,1),(1,0) triangle in CIE xy chromaticity space. The line connecting Cb and Cr is the alychne. Notice that the spectral locus passes through rg=(0,0) at 435.8 nm, through rg=(0,1) at 546.1 nm and through rg=(1,0) at 700 nm. Also, the equal energy point (E) is at rg=xy=(1/3,1/3).

                                   

                                   

                                  Digital Cinema projectors work in 4 gamuts (going up in cost).

                                  rec.709 RGB

                                  DTM RGB

                                  P7v2 & P3 RGB - which are a close refinement to what film can express.

                                  See this reference

                                  They are all triangles expressed in co-ordinates.

                                  This triangle reference points got bigger on each generation of technology

                                   

                                  If you plot the P3 triangle it is WAAAYY bigger than rec.709 and WAAAYYY closer to rec.2020.

                                   

                                  The films I mentioned were most likely projected on a P3 projector and with that wider gamut it looked AMAZING. You've never seen richer blues and reds.

                                   

                                  I personally have seen rec.2020 prototype 4k monitors and they are like stepping through a magic window.

                                   

                                  As for how sRGB and rec.709 are not exactly the same; I agree, but the Chroma values (ie the x and y co-ordinates of the RGB triangle) ARE THE SAME, it's just the gamma value that changes the Luma curve. If that's SOOO important see if your monitor allows you to change the gamma value. If you are still unsatified you've graduated to needing a Reference Monitor.

                                   

                                  'hope that helped.

                                  • 14. Re: Having problem with Dell Ultrasharp 2410 (for video editing)
                                    funkytwig Level 1

                                    Thanks for that, not sure how I missed your reply before. 

                                     

                                    I finaly got a i1 Display Pro so I got out my Ultrasharp 2410 and calibrated it and have been using dispcalGUI (it is suposed to be better than the bundeled software and I could not get the bundeled iDisplay software to work without crashing the whole PC, verry strange).  The colours do look vivid in windows so I switched to sRGB.  I then started watching Game of Thrones and the colours looked a bit washed out so I went back to the calibrated custom setting and it looked great.  I guess VLC mist be wide guant aware, is Premiere Pro.

                                     

                                    Another strange thing is that in Mac (I have dual boot) the colours look OK, maybe the Mac OS is wide guant aware.  For me Resolve is the main issue as it is where I do the grading, I guess this is wide guant aware, I will try it on PC and Mac and compair.  I am wondering if the Mac/PC gamma setting on the monitor will allow me to switch between PC/Mac without having to reset RGB/Britness settings everytime I switch.

                                     

                                    Ben