13 Replies Latest reply on Aug 21, 2013 9:09 AM by runeyeland

    Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video

    Mathias Vejerslev Level 2

      Just a heads up. Interesting times over at Magic Lantern, where they've cracked the Canon DSLR's to deliver RAW video. The resulting .RAW file is converted to a DNG sequence of custom dimensions. The way I develop these is just like I do my photos: I use Bridge to browse, open up a representative frame in CR, do my settings, and sync up the rest in Bridge. Then I use Image Processor to output a JPG sequence for final rendering in Premiere (I use premiere 5, but Photoshop CS6, that is why I dont import the DNG sequence directly in, say after effects or Premiere).

       

      Anyway, lots of people have suddenly started using Camera RAW for grading RAW video over the past week or so.

       

      Just wanted to let you know. Its pretty big news. Here's my first tests: https://vimeo.com/66414746

        • 1. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
          Mathias Vejerslev Level 2

          So I've been experimenting lately with these DNGs and making moving pictures with Camera Raw. One thing I discovered was that the noise effect in CR is static. That is, identical from frame to frame. Not good for video.

          • 2. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
            areohbee Level 5

            Mathias Vejerslev wrote:

             

            Not good for video.

            Sounds like a deal breaker(?)

            R

            • 3. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
              Mathias Vejerslev Level 2

              Not at all. While my usual photo routine always includes a bit of noise to break up the perfect digitalnes of the capture, it's easy enough just to omit that from the CR processing and add it in an NLE like premiere later, along with sharpening and denoising. I might even be wrong, but thats what I'm seeing in my video. It might have something to do with the denoising routine in the NLE, though.

              • 4. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
                areohbee Level 5

                Thanks for the educational information... .

                ~R.

                • 5. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
                  Dave Merchant MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                  It's much better to use After Effects to grade Canon RAW/DNG footage, as you can maintain a 100% nondestructive workflow.

                   

                  You can import a DNG frame sequence into After Effects (and it will display the ACR interface automatically, as if you were opening a single image in Photoshop). Whatever you 'develop' in ACR is applied identically to every frame, so yes there are problems if you do something like add grain as it'll produce a static pattern. That doesn't matter for stills, so nobody in the ACR team bothered to add a random seed to the grain function. Maybe if this workflow catches on we'll see it added to future versions, but right now you should add grain later with AE's effects.

                   

                  The DNG 'footage' always imports in 32-bit space even though the data from Canon's sensor isn't that deep. If you put it onto a 16-bit comp in AE you can adjust tone/exposure with the same effectiveness as the sliders in ACR, and the non-32 effects such as Add Grain will be happier. There's no real point working in 32-bit comps for these files unless you're doing something extreme. Replicating the shadow/highlight/clarity sliders with curves requires some skill, but you can get some amazing one-click effects on these DNG sequences from plugins such as MB Looks.

                   

                  Personally I would make the overall pre-grade in ACR (white balance, approximate exposure, lens correction) but I'd do everything else (denoise/curves/grade/grain) in AE once the footage is on the timeline (I'd apply a little bit of MB Denoiser II, then Colorista or Looks, then AE's Add Grain or MB MisFire). Note that you need to set the lens correction manually, as the DNGs from Raw2dng don't include the EXIF tags.

                   

                  One thing I've been asked is how to get the ACR dialog open again once the footage is imported to AE. You do that by right-clicking the footage in the project bin and choosing Interpret Footage > Main (Ctrl+Alt+G). On the dialog that appears, press the More Options button on the bottom left.

                   

                   

                  btw - Premiere Pro CS6 does not import DNGs. A previous version did, but Adobe reduced their activities on the emerging CinemaDNG standard and removed the plugin.

                  • 6. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
                    areohbee Level 5

                    Thank you Dave - good stuff... .

                    Rob

                    • 7. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
                      Mathias Vejerslev Level 2

                      >It's much better to use After Effects to grade Canon RAW/DNG footage

                       

                      I realise this, Dave. Unfortunately, I own Master Suite 5, and Photoshop 6 extended, and I want to use the latest camera raw. As pr the ML forums, there are plenty others using Photoshop for this. Thanks for the pointers, though!

                      • 8. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
                        Mathias Vejerslev Level 2

                        Are there any devs still hanging out here? Over at the ML forum, we are seeing exposure flickering in DNG sequenced video with contrast change. We are trying to chase down the root cause, and the trail leads to CR. Perhaps more specifically, the Clarity slider. Does the Clarity slider change the black / white point of the image depending on its content? What about the highlight and shadow sliders? Anything we should be cautious of, doing videos out of RAW DNG sequences in CR?

                        • 9. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
                          Mathias Vejerslev Level 2

                          Here is a link to a thread describing the flickering we get from doing DNG video sequences in camera RAW (for the devs!): http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5710.0 - it would be wonderful if we could have a workaround for this, so we can still use our favourite RAW developer for DNG sequenced video!

                          • 10. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
                            Steffen Hacker

                            Dave, what you are writing about importing DNGs into After Effects is not what AFX is actually doing. If you pull the exposure slider in the ACR dialogue - you get the highlights back, i.e. you can "see" in the shadows. But once the file is opened and passed through ACR all this infromation is gone - if you are in a 32bit AFX comp and pull the exposure down, the highlights are all cropped since ACR does not pass the full information of the file through, you´d need a linear EXR etc. for that which - unfortunately - I have no clue how to transcode the DNG to with all information.

                             

                            If this is different for you I apologize, but then you would´ve found the holy grail to working with DNG sequences in After Effects, but I fear that it is as I say, so adjusting tone and exposure in After Effects is NOT the same like doing it in ACR. Unfortunately.

                             

                            cheers,

                            Steffen

                            • 11. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
                              MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                              Hi Mathias,

                               

                              Yes, the grain effect is static.  It was not originally designed for video.  We have considered a revised implementation that would eliminate this problem.  Perhaps in the future.

                               

                              Some (many) controls in the Basic panel in PV 2012 are now image-adaptive.  They use the image content itself to determine the range and behavior of the controls.  Highlights, Shadows, and Clarity are among the controls that respond most strongly to the image content.  These were not designed with temporal coherence in mind.  This is why you can expect to see temporal artifacts if you are to try to apply these controls to individual still frames.

                               

                              For basic tone effects, I would suggest instead using the Parametric and/or Point curves to minimize temporal issues.

                              • 12. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
                                Steffen Hacker Level 1

                                Hey, great to have a developer here! Thanks for following up topics like this!

                                 

                                At the moment there are two big issues that prevent a great adobe workflow for RAW video - one is that the ACR dialogue pops up every time one loads a DNG .. can this somehow be automated with the SDK, a script etc.? So you can read a template or pass values through so it is not asking the user?

                                 

                                And second would be that we don´t get the full raw info from ACR into After Effect´s 32 bit space .. if ACR had an option to maybe compress all the info which is in the DNG/raw (in highlights/shadows) into a log-like image, then this could be loaded in 16bit and rendered as ProRes or DnxHD 4:4:4 which would us enable to get rid of the DNG sequences since you can´t comfortable work with them in Premiere and for grading in the end .. a log video file is fine enough. These two points would make the Adobe workflow the best usable and most high quality of all of the existing ones!

                                 

                                Thanks!

                                • 13. Re: Heads up: I have started to use CR 7 for RAW video
                                  runeyeland Level 1

                                  I am learning about the temporal artefacts the hard way - took me forever to understand what was going  on and I finally stumbled upon this thread. I would really appreciate if Someone from adobe could confirm exactly which aspects of PV 2012 and 2010 that are 'temporally safe'

                                  Coming from stills, i have become VERY comfortable with ACR and it will take me a while to get used to pr/AE.