17 Replies Latest reply on May 30, 2013 5:17 AM by President Beeblebrox

    Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)

    President Beeblebrox Level 1

      Hey guys and gals!

       

      I am going slowly but surely insane. Our project is edited, 30 hours of video are waiting to be rendered... And the first imported nested sequence from PPro to After Effects fails miserably.

       

      What is the problem?

       

      nested problem 1.png

      I have these PPro Sequences. Note that on Video 3 there is a 'cut' at 2:14:00. It's not really a cut, it's my EOS 5D MIII footage. The EOS stops after 29mins of recording - but the two clips are seamless.

       

      Now I replace this with an After Effects Composition. I tried it nested, unnested, grouped, ungrouped, one track at a time and all tracks at the same time (as it should be).

       

      This is what I get:

       

      nested problem 2.png

      There is a 15 second gap between the two clips. None of the clips has any kind of effects of any kind applied to them.

       

      Please help, not only am I going unabashedly insane, also are we about to miss our deadline due to this.

       

      Thanks!

       

      Michael

        • 1. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
          Steven L. Gotz Level 5

          I hate to say this, but a Premiere Pro project brought into After Effects is not going to be perfectly the same as it is in Premiere Pro. Not even close.

           

          Perhaps it is time to consider a Digital Intermediate. Transcode to a lossless format and whatever you were going to do in After Effects, do it to that video clip.

           

          Why are you bringing Premiere Pro into After Effects? For what purpose? I ask, because I generally do it the other way around where it works perfectly for me.

          • 2. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
            President Beeblebrox Level 1

            Thanks for the answer.

             

            We don't have the fastes machines, thus, rendering everything to lossless formats first is not the best of options. 

             

            We have 3 cameras - all synchronized in Premiere Pro. We have filmed an instructional video for miniature painters.

             

            Cam 1: Footage of what the artist paints

            Cam 2: Footage of the artist

            Cam 3: Footage of the palette where he mixes colors.

             

            The Cam 1 Footage is the one that causes the problems. It is the main video.

            Cam 2+3 are Picture-in-Picture shots that I put into frames in After Effects.

             

            It is supposed to look something like this:

             

            screen.jpg

             

            We have a lot of sequences that don't seem to pose a problem at all.

            But then, some others have these issues.

             

            I have no clue why AE has this weird non-deterministic behavior.

             

            Btw: Software is Creative Cloud all up to date.

            • 3. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
              President Beeblebrox Level 1

              OK, I think I have to do the intermediate through lossless export. It seems that only the 'main cam' is the problem, so I don't have to export all three.

               

              Which "lossless" Format would you recommend? My source footage is: 1920x1080 25p.

               

              The target footages are:

              - MPEG2-DVD

              - H264 Youtube HD 1920x1080 and

              - H264 Blue Ray

              • 4. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                Personally I prefer the Cineform codec.

                 

                You have not told us what you are using After Effects for. Do you even need to export to After Effects?

                 

                Can't you take the original footage into After Effects, do what you have to do, then bring it into Premiere Pro for editing and exporting?

                • 5. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                  President Beeblebrox Level 1

                  Well, I think I told you what I am using it for

                   

                  I assemble the Picture-in-picture images in After Effects as shown in the image above. They are all in sync.

                  The two Pic-in-pics depend on what is show in the main video.

                   

                  I am not an After Effects Pro, but stuff like keeping three videos tracks in sync (10 hours material cut down to 2) is something I rather do in Premiere Pro.

                  Also, rendering 10 hours of footage in AE first only to edit it down to 2 hours then in PPro sounds kinda wild to me.

                   

                  It is quite possible that I am doing something completely unnessessary, which you might know how to do much easer.

                  • 6. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                    President Beeblebrox Level 1

                    And now... something new.

                     

                    I get the 'importer reported a generic error' when I try to send certain nested sequences with Dynamic Link...

                    When the track is not nested, all works fine. I nest it - error. This is more than frustrating.

                    • 7. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                      Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                      Did you try just to select those clips in PrPro timeline, copy them and paste into AE composition?

                      Could you upload a test PrPro project, which would reproduce the issue (just a test one with a single sequence consisting of those pair of problematic clips)?

                      Could you upload a couple of sample files (Dropbox is a nice tool for file sharing, by the way) so that we can test on our own?

                       

                      P.S. So as to fix your latest issue with Dynamic Link try to manually clean Media Cache Database: check Preferences -> Media... for the location, quit PrPro and AE, manually delete all files from both Media Cache and Media Cache Files folders and let PrPro rebuild them on relaunch.

                       

                      If the issue persists, try to deactivate and reactivate the Suite.

                      • 8. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                        tfi productions 44 Level 1

                        hello,

                         

                        at OP:  you have a similar thread around here with a AE PPRO workflow

                        with PIP

                         

                        can you explain to us what you are using AE for?

                         

                        it seems to me you can do your PIP work in PPRO

                        and bypass AE unless AE is doing something that PPRO can't...

                         

                        still trying to help, cheers, j

                        1 person found this helpful
                        • 9. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                          President Beeblebrox Level 1

                          Hey guys!

                           

                          Thanks for all your suggestions!

                           

                          @tfi: Yeah, I think you are right, I could probably do everything in PPro. I have created some nice comps in AE that make the PIP process somewhat managable, but it would probably not be worse in PPro - all I need to do is nest the tracks and the PIP frames together and I should be golden. Will try that first thing in the morning.

                           

                          @fuzzy: Yes, I did. And it is always the same problem (see below for more hints on the cause).

                           

                          Resolved one problem: The "Generic import failure" was cased by a PPro Sequence that contained a sped up clip. Although the documentation only says that AE works opposite to PPro (200% is fast in PPro and slow in AE, duh!) the import fails every time I try it. I just removed some of the sped up material and rendered the main cam out to Windows Media.

                           

                          I did not resolve the Problem with the dislocated, torn apart sequences.

                          I did find out one thing they have in common though.

                           

                          My EOS 5D Mark III (like any, actually) will record for like 7 minutes or so, before it splits the Data into separate files.

                          In PPro everything 'seems' alright, I take section A, move section B right behind it and the two clips play seemlessly.

                           

                          Here come the oddities:

                           

                          When I try to put a PPro transition, like Iris Star on it, PPro will tell me 'not enough frames something, some frames will be duplicated' and half of the transition will be marked with 'lines'. Clearly, both sides (let's say, they are each around 7 minutes) have enough data for a error-free transition.

                           

                          In AE the only time that my timeline has 'blank' or rather 'black' spots (see images above), is on these joints between what seems to me two perfectly fine EOS 5D Mark III video clips that were separated by the camera because of the 2GB thingy..

                           

                          Bug or Feature? I smell a bug!

                           

                          I resolved it with your recommendation to use an intermediary lossless export for the moment. Takes a lot of time, but I should be able to manage.

                          As I said, I will try tfi's idea tomorrow.

                          • 10. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                            tfi productions 44 Level 1

                            hello,  @ Pres:

                             

                            in your response to my response you again mention 'nest'

                            in PPRO i don't even think 'nesting' is necessary

                             

                            drop all 3 videos onto 1 timeline (video 1 = the full screen with the model figure) (video 2 = the paint palette) (video 3 = the artist)

                            use the motion tab for each of video 2 and 3 to SCALE and POSITION each video to the proper size and position

                             

                            that should be it: very simple, very easy, very fast...PIP with PPRO...

                             

                            hope this helps

                             

                            the transitions you apply need to have large enough HANDLES to work properly (HANDLES being frames)

                             

                            cheers, j

                            • 11. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                              President Beeblebrox Level 1

                              Hey tfi!

                               

                              Again, thank you for your continued help!

                               

                              I originally have all of the tracks in my PPro Timeline, it looks something like this:

                               

                              old tracks.jpg

                              The three cams are time synched and all the content has been edited to what we need. Painting a miniature takes 20+ hours and of course watching all 20+ hours is a little bit like watching grass grow,

                               

                              Video 1 is the main video (background), Video 2 and 3 are PIPs.

                              The problem with the PIPs is that I need to 'cut them to size', because they look like this:
                              cam1-3.jpg

                              As you can see, they extend over the PIP frame that we want. Cam 03 even has some basic 3D tilting and 360 degree turning on them.

                              (And of course, AE will mess that 3D stuff up, even though it can be corrected easily).

                               

                              Because we first had a very fancy solution in AD (stuff would fly in from the side inside complex AE comps) we kinda stuck with AE, mostly because working with comps and mattes in AE is so simple.

                              We got rid of all the fancy stuff and ended up phasing in our cams with simple opacity keypoints. Now it looks very simple:

                               

                              This is the main comp. Track 4 is the main video. Track 2 and 3 are PIP comps and track one is just a station identifier logo:

                              AE comps.jpg

                              The PIP comps are also as simple as they can be: (? )

                              Track 1 is a simple transparent frame that holds an area in which the Video goes.

                              Track 2 has the matte.

                              And track three the nested sequence from PPro. (I only nest it, because otherwise there would be gazillion clips).

                              ae PC.jpg

                              Big thing here is, that I don't have to 'cut the video to size' - as all I do is position the video behind the matte and everything else is transparent.

                               

                              So, if my EOS files would'nt be all messed up all would be good - as I would not have to render out to lossless first to repeat this process in AE.

                              Bugs rule the world. It could be so sweet

                               

                              Thinking about your suggestions, I did not go to sleep as I had planned but stayed up till 3 am to figure a way to create this behavior in PPro.

                               

                              And the basic Idea, of course, is simple. Place the PIP footage,

                              Then I remembered, why I failed doing this before. And the reason is that I need to 'cut' the videos sides so only what I want to show, shows.

                               

                              I tried all kinds of mattes combos yesterday. I admit, that I am not a pro here... (not that you didn't figure that already )

                              In short - it didn't work. Either some rest of the image was still showing or some underlying videos where covered by the matte in some way or other.

                               

                              So I resorted to brute force and used a four-point garbage matte on my PIP videos.

                              This works, BUT - since sometimes the respective PIP video moves, I now need to not only move the image, but also - in the same 'speed' shift all corners of the FPGM.

                              Since this happens rarely, I think I am gonna live with that.

                               

                              This is how my PPro tracks look like now:

                               

                              tracks.jpg

                              I reversed my original videos. Video 1 is now main, Vid 2 Artist cam, Vid 3 is the transparent Artist Cam frame, Vid 4 palette cam, vid 5 the palette cam frame and vid 6 overlay station identifier.

                               

                              Not pretty.

                               

                              Question

                               

                              All this is rather cumbersome.

                               

                              If anyone of you has any idea how I could realize the same results in PPro using MATTES I would be the happiest President of this Galaxy.

                               

                              Again, thank you for the support!

                               

                              Michael

                              • 12. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                                Fuzzy Barsik Level 4
                                Resolved one problem: The "Generic import failure" was cased by a PPro Sequence that contained a sped up clip.

                                After Effects is smart enough to appropriately stretch a time remapped in PrPro timeline clip while bringing it into via Dynamic Link. It doesn't cause Importer generic error', whereas errors in Media Cache Database do.

                                Here come the oddities:

                                 

                                When I try to put a PPro transition, like Iris Star on it, PPro will tell me 'not enough frames something, some frames will be duplicated' and half of the transition will be marked with 'lines'. Clearly, both sides (let's say, they are each around 7 minutes) have enough data for a error-free transition.

                                Not the oddities at all, and it clearly says what the issue is: as tfi productions 44 pointed out, you don't have some 'spare' frames (handles) after the end of the first clip and before the beginning of the second one, hence PrPro have to duplicate them so as to create a transition.

                                Bug or Feature? I smell a bug!

                                I wouldn't be so quick until others can test and confirm.

                                If anyone of you has any idea how I could realize the same results in PPro using MATTES I would be the happiest President of this Galaxy.

                                Create your matte with any tool you want: you may reuse the one you exploit in AE or draw a brand new matte in Titler. Drop the matte above your footage and apply Track Matte Key effect onto the footage. See this comment on how to create a procedural matte in PrPro for some more details.

                                1 person found this helpful
                                • 13. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                                  President Beeblebrox Level 1

                                  Thanks Fuzzy!

                                   

                                  With regards to the EOS files: I don't get how this could not be a 'bug'. I got a 9 minute video that the EOS splits in two. So let's say, 4.5 minutes to the left, 4.5 minutes to the right. The video runs through seamlessly and without problems in PPro. In AE, as described above, it just creates a 'black hole' between them. And like most black hole, this one sucks, too

                                   

                                  'Not enough frames' does not really seem to be an issue, unless I don't really understand the concept of frames (which may well be the case).

                                   

                                  I will check your advise on the track matte. I tried it yesterday as you described, but it would always mess up some of the underlying videos...

                                   

                                  But I got a fresh cup of coffee, 4 hours of sleep under my belt and I feel committed to solve this

                                  • 14. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                                    Fuzzy Barsik Level 4
                                    With regards to the EOS files: I don't get how this could not be a 'bug'.

                                    As I said, this may or may not be a bug. Currently you're facing an issue on your rig, which needs to be reproduced on other ones so as to be claimed a bug.

                                    'Not enough frames' does not really seem to be an issue, unless I don't really understand the concept of frames (which may well be the case).

                                    Imagine a footage as e.g. a corridor, which starts with a wall (first frame) and ends with a wall (last frame). You can't enter the corridor prior to the first frame or walk through beyond the last frame, 'cos you bump the wall. Hence motion happens only between the walls.

                                     

                                    When you join clips wall to wall, there is no room to simultaneously walk in the first and the second corridors, you can be either in the first or the second one. If you apply a transition, PrPro duplicates those first and last frames (walls) in order to fill the length of the transition. Depending on how you position the transition, you start bumping the wall of the second corridor while keep walking through the first one or vice versa.

                                    1 person found this helpful
                                    • 15. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                                      President Beeblebrox Level 1

                                      OK, I did get the track matte to work - somehow.

                                      It works to some extend, but still not as I need it 100%.

                                       

                                      The first problem I had was that I had to apply the matte to the 100% scaled footage. If I already scaled the PIP and then applied a matte with the matte in the right position, I would just get a section of the underlying video footage. Your post has actually helped me understand this.

                                       

                                      However

                                       

                                      The Problem is that, as soon as I have the Track Matte Key 'connected' to the underlying video, it is subject to scaling, 3d effects and rotation of the underlying video. In AE, no matter what I do to the video 'behind' the matte, the matte will not be affected. I just realized the differences thanks to your post.

                                       

                                      Example: The 'palette' that we are filming needs to be rotated around 180 degrees (sometimes 178, 179) and also 3D tilted by 5-7% to compensate the angle we filmed the palette at (oh, we are so gonna do this differently next time! )

                                       

                                      Here, to make clear, what I mean, I put 170 degree rotation on the video. The matte rotates with it.
                                      Rotating the matte separately does not help, as in this instance the video will not follow and the cut-out will be off :/

                                      almost.jpg

                                      So, as far as I understand, the concept of a matte in PPro and in AE are therefore somewhat different.

                                       

                                      When I set the rotation to 180 degrees, btw, it looks great, so THANKS for the help! This will not help with all of our footage, but will save us a lot of rendering time already.

                                       

                                      This is the result that I got with your help. By nesting the sequences now, I can easily control the in-and-out of the PIPs via Opacity Keyframes!

                                       

                                      happy.jpg

                                       

                                      So again, to all of you who answered a big THANK YOU from a very happy German here in Berlin.
                                      You guys rock

                                       

                                      Michael

                                       

                                      M

                                      • 16. Re: Nested sequences messed up in After Effects (pics inside)
                                        Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                                        Now you're facing the following issues:

                                        - render order;

                                        - bugs in the Track Matte Key effect.

                                         

                                        Regard to the first one, all effects are rendered in a particular order:

                                        - from top to bottom according to their position in a list of applied effects;

                                        - Fixed effects are rendered after Standard effects;

                                        - nested content is rendered in ascending bubble mode: from a greatest depth to a surface.

                                         

                                        Therefore, so as to trick the render order you can e.g. instead of manipulating the Motion effect's properties apply the Transform effect prior to any other Standard effects or nest your footage and manipulate the Motion effect's properties inside the nested sequence.

                                         

                                        Regard to the Track Matte Key bugs, you can't sometimes trick it with the Transform effect and, hence, have to nest.