17 Replies Latest reply on Jun 5, 2013 9:09 AM by molezeen

    How would you create a type book?

    molezeen Level 1

      Background

      I asked about this yesterday in the context of creating outline text: a 416 page type specimen book with 3000 fonts, had 30-50 fonts where the numbers and basic punctuation failed to print (there were small rectangles instead). . . . thank you to everyone who tried to help yesterday.

       

      CreateSpace (an Amazon company) was the printer. They said it was easy to fix by re-embedding the fonts. The fixed proof printed perfectly, but I had to make some small edits--about 6 typos. The print-ready file was a PDF/X-1a file. (I asked what they meant by "re-embed" and they would not tell me.)

       

      The corrected file (also a PDF/X-1a) was uploaded, with a note saying they needed to re-embed the fonts. But this time CreateSpace said the file was "too complex to print."  I argued with them a bit, and they finally fixed the file.  The proof printed perfectly.  This time, when I asked what they had done, they said they had to convert the text to outline: facing a third correction, I want to do as much as I can, hence my post yesterday. 

       

      Question

      How should I prepare the latest corrected PDF from an InDesign file (authored in InDesign, if that matters) that would present the least problems printing? (I am working in Creative Suite CS 6)

       

      CreateSpace will not tell anyone what presses they use (although I know that they use Indigo 5500 presses, at least at one time), what profiles, what RIP . . . they will give out no technical information. 

       

      Walton

        • 1. Re: How would you create a type book?
          Ellis home Level 4

          I've done books with CreateSpace. About the size you are mentioning but not even close in the number of fonts you're using! My limited knowledge about the process tells me that when you export to PDF all the fonts are embedded (unless something prevents this from happening with some fonts?). In the PDF you can check if all your fonts are embedded in Document Properties/Fonts. Easier said that done in your case with 3000 fonts!

          • 2. Re: How would you create a type book?
            molezeen Level 1

            Thanks for answering.

             

            Actually, every font was embedded--PDF/X-1a ensures that--and the files passed every individual text related preflight in Acrobat Pro.  CreateSpace acknowledged that.  Their first answer:

            Our team has advised that the conversion error is a result of the way the fonts were embedded. Indeed the fonts were embedded but as different types, for example, Type 1, TrueType, Composite TT. We simply run them through a process that re-embeds all the fonts as the same type. 

             

            Their second answer for the corrected PDF:

            Also to follow up with your question in what our Technical Service Team  did to fix your files was that they converted the interior to outlines.

             

            Since, I need to make a few more corrections, and I want to avoid problems, I thought I would ask here.

             

            Walton

            • 3. Re: How would you create a type book?
              Ellis home Level 4

              You said, 30 -50 fonts showed the problem, can you tell which ones were they? Maybe you can test those and see if you can detect something? It is really mind blowing to be dealing with a document with 3000 fonts.

               

              PS: CreateSpace has Adobe Preflight that you can import into Acrobat's Preflight Profiles: http://www.12on14.com/pages/CreateSpace_PreFlight.zip

              • 4. Re: How would you create a type book?
                molezeen Level 1

                A number of the fonts that did not print well were fairly common, for example:

                Open Sans (a Google font)

                Tahoma (a Microsoft font)

                Lucida Sans

                Cantarell

                Times New Roman

                 

                All of the fonts that printed poorly in one place in the book, printed perfectly elsewhere in the book.

                 

                Walton

                • 5. Re: How would you create a type book?
                  Ellis home Level 4

                  Can you narrow it down to specific pages in your book? Maybe check for anything different in the setting of those pages: master page used, character/paragraph styles?

                  • 6. Re: How would you create a type book?
                    molezeen Level 1

                    With regard to master pages, there is no pattern to the problem.  No character or paragraph styles were used.  All of the type specimens were derived from the same text, all that I did was to change the fonts. 

                     

                    There is one pattern: all of the fonts printed correctly until the last 10% of the book.  There is, however, nothing that distinguishes those pages from previous pages.  About 10% of those fonts have problems.

                     

                    Keep in mind that if CreateSpace was not bs'ing me, they fixed the problem once by re-embedding the fonts, then again by converting the text to outline.

                     

                    Walton

                    • 7. Re: How would you create a type book?
                      MW Design Level 4

                      Walton, I believe that they are bs'ing you if they say that converting the fonts to outline solved anything. That process actually can overwhelm a rip on a job that size.

                       

                      A more likely scenario would be they fed the rip chunks of the PDF.

                       

                      Mike

                      • 8. Re: How would you create a type book?
                        molezeen Level 1

                        Thank you, I tend to agree.

                         

                        The problem is that the printer (CreateSpace), won't give out technical information. I know there were problems printing the first PDF; and I asked specifically what they did to make it print, as I did with a revised copy . . . re-embedding/converting to outline.

                         

                        So faced with another revision, I am trying to be proactive and prepare the file with whatever they did to fix the problem . . . assuming they did something to the file that I could do.

                         

                        Walton

                        • 9. Re: How would you create a type book?
                          Ellis home Level 4

                          I think, due to Amazon's mass marketing approach, they try to lower the bar as much as possible in terms of self publishers technical requirements to submit their work. As you are aware, you can even submit your book in word and they'll take care of it. Or when you submit your PDF it just have to pass their PDF checking and that's about all you have to worry about. When I submitted the first book to them I really didn't pay much attention to the technical side of it (press wise) because I didn't have to. I've learned a bit about it from the pros in this forum. And as you have experienced, they are tight in giving out any technical information related to their process.

                          • 10. Re: How would you create a type book?
                            molezeen Level 1

                            When CS said the revised (6 typos) book was too complex to print (although they had already printed it successfully), they advised me to ask for help on the CS forum.  If you go to the forum, you'll see that I am active there (ID--Walton), so in effect, they were telling me to ask me for help. 

                             

                            My experience with CS goes back to when it was BookSurge.  The CEO told me that his policy was to not give out technical information unless the book in question was paid (uploads were $95 each). The catch was that you uploaded and paid at the same time.  When you uploaded you didn't have a question.  When they rejected the book, you had a question, but you were not paid up.  I submitted projects that were 100% in accordance with their submission guidelines, only to have them rejected . . . because the guidelines were wrong!  I found at least half a dozen mistakes in the guidelines, at $95 each!  CS absorbed that culture of secrecy.

                             

                            Walton

                            • 11. Re: How would you create a type book?
                              Ellis home Level 4

                              Just out of curiosity, when you turn on Preflight in ID, do you see any errors there?

                              • 12. Re: How would you create a type book?
                                molezeen Level 1

                                I do use the Preflight in ID, it's a great tool.  There were no errors in the ID files.  I converted to PDF/X-1a.  And, anticipating the possibility of problems, I ran the individual Acrobat preflight text related tests.  The files were as good as I knew how to make them.

                                 

                                Walton

                                • 13. Re: How would you create a type book?
                                  molezeen Level 1

                                  So no one has any ideas?  How should I prepare a 3000 font, type specimen book, 400MB file size limit,  491 pages, created in InDesign CS6? 

                                  • 14. Re: How would you create a type book?
                                    MW Design Level 4

                                    Yeah. Have a different service bureau print the specimen book. Really. Use an Offset printer. They will make film, the output will be far superior to a digital press.

                                     

                                    Mike

                                    • 15. Re: How would you create a type book?
                                      molezeen Level 1

                                      Unfortunately, the premise of this book along with another 300 pages, is working with print on demand printers, specifically with CreateSpace, so using CreateSpace is kind of important . . . kind of like writing a book on InDesign but using Quark to create it.

                                       

                                      Walton

                                       

                                      Walton

                                      • 16. Re: How would you create a type book?
                                        MW Design Level 4

                                        Well, new info is just that, new info.

                                         

                                        I doubt you will have other responders that have attempted the same thing using CS. I know I have done quite large books with them, even with a lot of vector drawings, and other than looking like CS printed it, it went through without a hitch.

                                         

                                        So regardless of what they (CreateSpace) are really doing to make it work well, I doubt a person doing the "normal" print run will not experience the issue(s) you are.

                                         

                                        Mike

                                        • 17. Re: How would you create a type book?
                                          molezeen Level 1

                                          Thank you everyone who helped!  I hope that if any of you find yourselves at CreateSpace with a book in hand, needing help, you won't hesitate to let me return in kind your help.

                                           

                                          Walton