26 Replies Latest reply: Jun 29, 2013 1:19 PM by johnjv24 RSS

    Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?

    johnjv24 Community Member

      I just built a new computer with:

       

      -Windows 7 Professional

      -Intel Core i7-3770

      8GB DDR3 RAM

      SanDisk 128 SSD

      WD Blue 1TB 7200RPM HDD

      GTX 650 1GB (I know not necessary since PreE doesn't use it for rendering)

       

      Specifically, when I am using the timeline, zooming in and out, moving it to the left and right, it becomes very sluggish.  Also, when I move the time line cursor it lags behind significantly. My Project setting is on DV - Standard 48kHz. My video is in AVI format approxamatly an hour long. This is very surprising since before I was editing on my 2009 Macbook Pro 3.06 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 8GB, 500HDD.  On my Macbook I was editing Raw DV footage with Hard Disk, Flash Memory Camcorders - Standard 48kHz project setting.  I had no lag what so ever in respect to what I experienced on my PC build. What could be the matter with it? During editing, I have the CPU meter and GPU meter(I know PreE doesn't use GPU for rendering) on as well but that's about it. I upgraded my editing computer to experience faster rendering and export times not to have to trade off for a sluggish timeline experience! Help!!!

        • 1. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
          Steve Grisetti CommunityMVP

          You say your video is an AVI. AVIs are packages, not true formats, and they can be made up of any of thousands of possible codecs -- only a few of which will edit well. ("Raw DV" is not one of them, as far as Premiere Elements is concerned.)

           

          Is this video captured from a tape-based miniDV camcorder over a FireWire connection? That will produce a DV-AVI, the ideal standard defnition format for editing on a PC.

           

          What model of camcorder is your video coming from and how did you get it into your computer?

          • 2. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
            the_wine_snob Community Member

            Along with the answers to Steve's questions, I would also check the video driver for your nVidia card, as the "sluggishness" that you report is likely tied to the GUI's redraw function. PrE relies VERY heavily on the interface with the video driver (more than almost any other program on your system), and an obsolete video driver can cause issues, such as you describe.

             

            I would check on the nVidia Web site, plug in your card's model and your OS version, and verify that you have the very latest driver installed. I would not trust Windows to tell if you have the latest, as it will usually be ~ 6 mos. wrong, which with nVidia will equal about 6 versions.

             

            On a Mac, the video drivers are installed with the OS updates, but with Windows, you have to do that manually.

             

            Good luck,

             

            Hunt

            • 3. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
              johnjv24 Community Member

              Bill,

               

              I will certainly heed that advice. Thanks for the heads up.

              • 4. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                johnjv24 Community Member

                Steve,

                 

                Video is coming from a DVD onto computer and was converted using the Xvid codec in the AVI container(used Wondershare video converter pro on my Macbook). did I say that right?  Since, I do not have a capturing device yet (finally ordered canopus advc110 yesterday) used a vcr to dvd device to copy tape to DVD. Once I get my hands on the canopus I should be good  as far as ideal format goes for PreE?

                • 5. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                  the_wine_snob Community Member

                  OK, the Xvid CODEC can be highly problematic, and often will not work properly, if at all. It is a heavily-compressed CODEC, and takes a lot of processing power to handle it properly.

                   

                  If at all possible, and for several reasons, I would use any number of other CODEC's, if at all possible. I do not know your conversion program, so do not know what options it offers.

                   

                  PrE 10 allows for direct Import of 100% DVD-compliant VOB's. If you Copy the VIDEO_TS folder and its files, to your Windows HDD, can you then Import the VOB's directly into your Project? If so, that will keep any conversion out of the mix, and give you the highest quality (remember, that VOB contains MPEG-2 DVD compressed material already) possible.

                   

                  Good luck,

                   

                  Hunt

                  • 6. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                    johnjv24 Community Member

                    The other codec available is the DIVX, is that any better? There is also H.264 in the MOV container.

                     

                    The reason I am using AVI is for better text quality, when adding titles, than MPEG2/VOB

                    • 7. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                      the_wine_snob Community Member

                      Unfortunately, Xvid and DivX are basically the same, for each respective version - Xvid is the open source version of DivX.

                       

                      Both are very heavily compressed, and are designed for delivery-only streaming video. They will greatly compress your already compressed MPEG-2 DVD material even more. Then, when you output the Timeline to a file, it is very likely that you will be compressing yet again. Quality will suffer greatly.

                       

                      H.264 would be a better choice, based solely on the quality aspect, but it also takes processing horsepower to handle.

                       

                      The AVI format, will have no real bearing on the quality of the Text. That comes from the CODEC inside the AVI "wrapper." With Xvid, or DivX, the quality will suffer.

                       

                      The reason that I asked about Importing the VOB files, is to eliminate one generation of compression in your workflow. You still will work with two (the initial MPEG-2 DVD compression, and then any compression at output).

                       

                      With the Grass Valley/Canopus unit, attached via FireWire, you can then Capture your DVD-Video material into DV-AVI, which is only lightly compressed (~ 5%), and will edit very smoothly.

                       

                      Good luck,

                       

                      Hunt

                      • 8. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                        johnjv24 Community Member

                        Thank you for the info didn't know all this. But I'm glad the canopus will do the trick!

                        • 9. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                          the_wine_snob Community Member

                          I think that the Canopus will do just what you need, and the result will be better.

                           

                          I am probably more critical of any multi-generational quality loss, than many, and will go so far as to not even use DV-AVI for intermediate files, if I need to do a two-way Export/edit/Import. I shy away from ANY compression, that is not absolutely necessary. Some people feel that the DV-AVI is perfectly fine, even for multi-generational intermediates, but I see those as 5%, + 5%, + 5%. For a single generation, I agree that they are fine, but often need several generations, so will use a lossless CODEC, such as Lagarith, or UT for those intermediates.

                           

                          For capture from an analog source, I use an older Canopus 300, and find it perfect. That one generation DV-AVI has never been an issue, and I have judged those against AVI Uncompressed - even with critical viewing, I cannot tell the difference, though much of that is possibly due to the source material - VHS tapes.

                           

                          Good luck, and please update us on your progress. Also, a DV-AVI will be far, far easier to edit (smoother, etc.), than any heavily-compressed material.

                           

                          Hunt

                          • 10. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                            johnjv24 Community Member

                            Which program do you use to utilize the lossless CODEC like Lagarith and UT?

                             

                            Yes, I noticed your anti-multi-generational attitude but that's a good perspective to know and I concur.

                             

                            I did update the driver for the video card but have not tested the difference yet.  But I will test whether the sluggishness was due to the video driver or the format and video codec used. I will let you all know what happens.

                             

                            Thanks again!

                             

                            Jonathan

                            • 11. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                              the_wine_snob Community Member

                              Both the Lagarith and UT lossless CODEC's are free. They can be downloaded, and then installed into the OS. Once installed, they will be available in many programs, and PrE is one.

                               

                              They get wrapped in the AVI, and are there available in the Compression drop-down list.

                               

                              This article might be useful: http://forums.adobe.com/message/4556586#4556586

                               

                              Good luck,

                               

                              Hunt

                              • 12. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                johnjv24 Community Member

                                Okay, downloaded the lagarith lossless codec and am going to convert the VOB files in PreE to the lagarith lossless codec.  Which field type do I set it to? Lower first or Progressive? 

                                 

                                The updated driver seemed to show a slight decrease in sluggishness when editing the Xvid codec video. But still needed to update either way.

                                • 13. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                  Steve Grisetti CommunityMVP

                                  I recommend not converting at all. You can rip the MPEG/VOB files as is to Premiere Elements using the program's Get Media/From PC DVD and DVD Camcorder tool.

                                   

                                  As long as your project is set up for Hard Disk Camcorder/standard definition you'll get excellent results.

                                  • 14. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                    A.T. Romano Community Member

                                    SG

                                     

                                    At the onset johnjv24 wrote

                                    This is very surprising since before I was editing on my 2009 Macbook Pro 3.06 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 8GB, 500HDD.  On my Macbook I was editing Raw DV footage with Hard Disk, Flash Memory Camcorders - Standard 48kHz project setting.  I had no lag what so ever in respect to what I experienced on my PC build

                                    As I have often written I am strictly an Elements Windows user. Since you have worked with both Windows and Mac and have offered the following input to johnjv24

                                     

                                    ......As long as your project is set up for Hard Disk Camcorder/standard definition you'll get excellent results

                                    .

                                     

                                    I would ask for clarification on several points brought up.

                                     

                                    1. Like you, here I favor the ripping of and the use of the VOBs from the DVD-VIDEO as you describe.

                                     

                                    2. From what I have read, DV data capture firewire Mac computer, gives DV.mov in contrast with the same procedure with Windows computer to give DV.avi. The DV.avi is characterized by interlaced frame rate with Lower Field First. If the same Scan order is true of DV.mov, why in the world would use of the Premiere Elements project preset of "Hard Disk, Flash Memory Camcorders - Standard 48 kHz enter this equation. Is this Timeline headed for a file saved to the hard drive or to DVD-VIDEO on DVD disc?

                                     

                                    3. Hard Disk, Flash Memory Camcorders setting is only going to switch the Scan Order. Is that what is wanted?

                                     

                                    Thanks for your input on this as it relates to johnjv24 troubleshooting.

                                     

                                    ATR

                                    • 15. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                      johnjv24 Community Member

                                      ATR

                                       

                                      "Is this Timeline headed for a file saved to the hard drive or to DVD-VIDEO on DVD disc?"

                                       

                                      The timeline is headed to DVD-VIDEO

                                       

                                       

                                      Jonathan

                                      • 16. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                        A.T. Romano Community Member

                                        johnjv24

                                         

                                        Thanks for the additional information.

                                         

                                        When you do your DV data capture firewire into Premiere Elements 10 Mac, from what I have read, you put DV.mov on the Timeline. But do you know the Field Order (aka Scan Order) of that interlaced footage? If it is Upper Field First, I can see the Hard Disk Flash Memory Camcorders standard project preset to switch the Field order to meet the unchangable Field Order standard for DVD-VIDEO on DVD disc, that is Lower Field First.

                                         

                                        But, if you have Lower Field First (which is the case in DV data capture firewire in Premiere Elements 10 Windows for the DV.avi), then the Hard Disk Flash Memory Camcorder/Standard project preset would not be indicated, rather NTSC DV Standard.

                                         

                                        That is the point that I was hoping to rule in or out.

                                         

                                        ATR

                                        • 17. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                          johnjv24 Community Member

                                          I have an update on the situation.

                                           

                                          So I just got the ADVC 110 and used it to get footage from the VCR.  The final output (DVD) looks better than what I have been outputting lately. Very much pleased.  Except, one lingering issue.  It is still lagging significantly in the timeline.  I don't understand it.  My old Macbook is still out performing the newly built PC.  Ridiculously, flashing, hiccup-like response, and jittering when editing in the timeline and moving the timeline cursor. Help!

                                          • 18. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                            the_wine_snob Community Member

                                            Glad that things are getting better.

                                             

                                            On the PC, I would also check on the nVidia Web site, to see if there is a newer video driver for your GTX 650. If so, download and install that. As PrE must interface with the video driver very heavily, an obsolete video driver can cause all sorts of issues in the GUI.

                                             

                                            I would not trust Windows to tell you if you have the latest video driver (usually at least 6 mos. out of date, and with video drivers, 6 mos. can be a lifetime), but instead verify your installed version vs what nVidia has on their Web site.

                                             

                                            Good luck, and hope that helps.

                                             

                                            Hunt

                                            • 19. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                              johnjv24 Community Member

                                              Yes, I have already updated the driver when you first pointed it out.

                                              • 20. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                                the_wine_snob Community Member

                                                Good, but sorry that it did not impact the GUI performance.

                                                 

                                                Thanks for reporting and good luck. Right now, I am out of ideas, but perhaps others will find a solution for that performance lag.

                                                 

                                                Hunt

                                                • 21. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                                  johnjv24 Community Member

                                                  Thanks for all your help, Bill.

                                                  • 22. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                                    johnjv24 Community Member

                                                    Does it make any difference if I have PreE on the SSD and all other files (e.g. cache, project, etc) on a HDD?

                                                    Would that be a reason for the lag?

                                                    • 23. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                                      the_wine_snob Community Member

                                                      Recent generations of SSD's are quite good, and their capacities have gone up, plus the price has gone down. Their reliability for long-term writing has also improved greatly. Having one as the system/boot disc is a good move, and I recommend having all programs, the OS and probably the Page File (Windows Virtual Memory) on one.

                                                       

                                                      I use HDD's for both my Project and Scratch disks, and then another for my media, for a 3x arrangement, i.e. C:\SSD, D:\SATA III HDD, E:\SATA III HDD.

                                                       

                                                      Spreading the I/O load will usually greatly improve overall performance, and that appears to be what you have done already. The performance gain is biggest, if one goes from just one disc, to two, with a much smaller impact, if they add 3, or more. Personally, I like the 3x (or more) arrangement, but the Bang For The Buck is less, than just adding a second physical HDD. At a point, there are diminishing returns, and when one gets to a bunch of multiple drives, even in RAID, the user does not see THAT much of an improvement, though they do show up in benchmarks.

                                                       

                                                      Unless you have partitioned any of your drives, I do not think that your C:\SSD and D:\SATA (II, or III) HDD's will be the bottleneck. You don't have any partitons, do you?

                                                       

                                                      For performance of the GUI, I find that the video driver (so long as one has at least 1GB VRAM) is the first bottleneck. Next can be installed RAM, but with a 64-bit OS and at least 8GB RAM, most RAM bottlenecks will not show up, until one goes to Share/Publish the Timeline. Then, more RAM can improve things, but that is not seen in the GUI performance.

                                                       

                                                      You have already ruled out the video driver (the main cause for GUI display issues), and have a good I/O sub-system, so I am at a loss to explain what you are seeing. Maybe some real hardware gurus will see a bottleneck, and can advise you on how to handle things.

                                                       

                                                      Good luck,

                                                       

                                                      Hunt

                                                      • 24. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                                        A.T. Romano Community Member

                                                        johnjv24

                                                         

                                                        Given that you have Premiere Elements installed to your SSD and the associated folders/files on "HDD".

                                                         

                                                        What is your drive setup for other than the SSD and what are the formats of those drives...NTFS or FAT?

                                                         

                                                        When it comes to previews and conformed audio and video and project.prel, please give the specific location for them in your computer HDD setup.

                                                         

                                                        I do not recall if it has been asked but I will asked nonetheless, have you ruled out any negative impact of the antivirus program that you are using?

                                                         

                                                        Thanks.

                                                         

                                                        ATR

                                                        • 25. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                                          johnjv24 Community Member

                                                          NTFS, I am assuming. No, I haven't but I don't suspect it to be the culprit, but I will test it and see. Thanks for the suggestion.

                                                          • 26. Re: Premiere Elements 10 sluggish Timeline...why?
                                                            johnjv24 Community Member

                                                            I finally tried changing the Windows 7 Aero theme to basic, and it made a dramatic difference in PreE!  I had read in the this forum that someone had this similar problem and had used this fix to solve it.  However, I hadn't got around to do this simple thing until today, and it made everything better. Thanks for everyones help!!

                                                             

                                                            -Jonathan