26 Replies Latest reply on Sep 24, 2013 12:39 AM by Yammer

    Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?

    Yammer Level 4

      I use Abobe Bridge as the host application for Camera Raw. For me, it makes much more sense than hunting for images from Photoshop.

       

      I think it's been at least three years—probably longer—since I noticed that Bridge has a habit of extracting some previews when they should already be cached, every time I bring Bridge to the foreground. I tried to ignore it, but as the number of images in the Content panel increases, so it seems that the number of repeat extractions increased. If you are dealing with hundreds of images at once, this can place a heavy load on the computer. An older computer can really struggle. Even with my super duper new computer, the 8 virtual CPUs can shoot up to 50% usage for 10 seconds every time Bridge gets focus because of this issue. And, since Camera Raw 7.3, the situation has got worse.

       

      Adobe Bridge uses Camera Raw to extract Raw previews. And today I made a major discovery (major for me anyway):

      Removing cropped images from the Bridge Content panel stops repeat extractions.

       

      One of my folders contained a lot of cropped images—some straightened, some transformed—and every time I brought Bridge to the foreground the computer fan would wind up as 40 or so repeat extractions would appear to occur. As an experiment, I opened all of the cropped images in Camera Raw 7.2 and adjusted them so that there was space around the crop, and they didn't rest against the edge of the original image anywhere. The repeat extractions stopped completely.

       

      I don't know why Bridge is having a problem with cropped images, but it is on my computer. Maybe it is something to do with the XMP data of cropped images. Has something changed between 7.2 and 7.3 in this respect?

        • 1. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
          ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          I hope Adobe reads about your discovery. 

           

          I wonder if there is a fuzzy-math error, perhaps in how the XMP records the various crop-coordinates as text-representations, that causes Bridge to think the crop-coordinates are outside the physical image area of the thumbnail or preview, maybe by just a fraction of a pixel, and so Bridge recomputes the crop on the thumbnail, hoping that the crop moves over slightly so there are no negative pixel coordinates but there still are so it continues to recompute the crop.  It could also be that even if there aren’t negative pixels, maybe there is a conditional that has a less-than-or-equal-to when comparing the crop coordinates to 0 and should have a less-than, only.  This is a common programming mistake if you’re not 100% sure about what you’re doing.  In oth3er words, there could be some exception condition prevention logic for the polar coordinate math that is trying a bit too hard.

           

          Rob Cole, who frequents the Lightroom forum and who has written a LR plug-in that deals in the crop-coordinate computations, may be able to shed some light on this situation if he’s had to work through any exception conditions in his plug-in.

          • 2. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
            Yammer Level 4

            I suspect that this bug has existed at least as long as lens corrections, since you are much more likely to crop against a curved edge. It may have existed even longer with a simple diagonal crop, I can't remember exactly when I first noticed it. I have certainly been aware of it since 2010, and possibly even longer.

             

            I assume that images which are adjusted by automatic lens corrections are cropped well within the fuzzy edges; I have noticed that some images can stand 1% reduction in Scale without grey edges appearing. As I often use ACR's Transform tools to straighten horizons, verticals and horizontals, and then cropping to remove the grey edges, I guess I am setting off this bug more than most.

            • 3. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
              Andrew_Hart Level 2

              I'm not experiencing this regeneration of thumbnails by Bridge at all - whether or not my edits contain crops.

              As a test I took 25 new, unedited .CR2 (from Canon 5D2) raws and added selective edits to alternate (2,4,6 etc) files, some with crops alone, some with crops and added Basic Panel edits.

              The crops were a mixture - some within the image boundaries and some touching 2 image boundaries. Left that folder, opened images from another folder in Ps, closed them and returned to the test folder.

              On return, the little circle in the bottom left cormer spins for 1 or 2 seconds and then stops. But it has always done this on my system when moving from folder to folder within Bridge or when returning to Bridge from Ps.

              I'm on ACR 7.4 and otherwise the latest CS6 (not CC) updates to Ps and Bridge. WIn 7 x64.

              Sorry I can't confirm your difficulties.

               

              Message was edited by: Andrew_Hart

               

              Message was edited by: Andrew_Hart

              • 4. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                Yammer Level 4

                A few figures to put this in perspective:

                 

                A recent Bridge Collection contained about 950 Raw images, all had settings, about 280 had crops. Every time Bridge regained focus from another application, the bottom left status circle spins, while the message '(43 thumbnail extractions)' counted down and then disappeared. So, Bridge only seemed to have a problem with about 15% of the cropped images.

                 

                I spent half an hour going through the 280 images, adjusting the crops so there was clear space between the crop and the edge of the image. This stopped the repeat extractions. My computer is now in a state of Zen.

                 

                I haven't worked out what it is about the touching edge crops which upsets Bridge. Let me say that I always enable Lens Corrections, and regularly make extensive use of all of the Transform sliders on certain shot types. I have been cropping to maximum area on transformed shots, which involves dragging the crop corners as far as possible in all directions.

                 

                Since discovering this side effect, I have been adjusting old crops, or removing them altogether, leaving odd-shaped grey borders, and my computer is a lot happier and snappier when working with large numbers of images in the Content panel.

                • 5. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                  Yammer Level 4

                  I posted this to the Bridge forum this morning, and Omke was able to replicate it easily. I thought people here might find this interesting...

                   

                  Hudechrome wrote:

                   

                  What gives? What do I have to do to make it do the same thing?

                  Try this:

                   

                  Pick a folder of Raw files, with or without settings. Select all and open in Camera Raw. I just picked 121 from yesterday.

                  Select all images in filmstrip.

                  Switch to the Lens Corrections panel (Ctrl-Alt-6) and enable auto Lens profile corrections (if it isn't already).

                  Switch to the Transform panel and Rotate. I did 3 degrees clockwise.

                  Select the Crop tool (C), and crop the maximum area possible.

                  Select Done, and wait for Bridge to regenerate the thumbnails.

                  Switch away from Bridge, and back to Bridge. Does the extractions message reappear?

                   

                  In my case, there was a exact correlation between the number of repeat extractions and the number of landscape orientation images, 87.

                   

                  It's likely that you may get different results, as the maths will be different for different camera sensor sizes and lens geometry, so you might need 2 or 3 attempts.

                  • 6. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                    Andrew_Hart Level 2

                    I followed your post #5 example exactly on a test folder of 25 Canon 5D2 .CR2 raw files ( initially without any edit settings - except the default sharpening 25/1/25/0 which my ACR always applies) with ACR 8.1 x64 (Process 2012) on Win7 x64 Ultimate and latest Ps x64 and Bridge x64 updates. Just in case its relevant, the lens used to take all 25 images was the Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 and the lens corrections applied following your script made an obvious improvement to the thumbnails.

                     

                    Yes, I now get the constant and consistent thumbnail regeneration in Bridge of all 25 files in that test folder in these circumstances:

                     

                    1. When moving from that folder to another folder in Bridge and then back to the test folder;

                     

                    2. When closing Bridge from the test folder and then reopening Bridge - which, of course, automatically opens to the test folder;

                     

                    3.When moving from the test folder in Bridge to an already opened Ps (with no image open in it) and then back to the test folder in Bridge; and

                     

                    4.The really annoying, but inconsistent, behaviour -  inconsistent because it does not happen with all folders, on switching from the test folder to another folder, with or without edits to the raw files (but not a single file in any of those folders contained any lens corrections or crops), all the thumbnails in that new folder also regenerated.

                     

                    I suppose, to be more precise, I should say that in each of the cases 1-4 above that the extractions message reappears. Since there is no visible change to the thumbnails themselves I can't be certain that the thumbnails are in fact regenerating, that is to say, being replaced.

                     

                    Message was edited by: Andrew_Hart

                    • 7. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                      Andrew_Hart Level 2

                      Interesting development.

                       

                      Further to my post #6, renaming the test folder made the reappearing message extractions behaviour go away for case numbers 1, 3 and 4.

                       

                      However, on closing Bridge from the test folder and reopening Bridge to the test folder, all 1-4 case behaviour was back again.

                      • 8. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                        Yammer Level 4

                        The worst thing for me was that: all I had to do was momentarily check my email or google something, and when I came back to Bridge the extractions would set off again. If I was working on a big folder or collection with a lot of trigger files, it might take a minute to catch up again. Just leaving Bridge as it is, in the background, and returning to it was enough.

                         

                        I reported this bug when I discovered the Photoshop Family Feedback website at the end of 2011, where it was picked up, reproduced and acknowledged within two weeks. It now seems that this problem hasn't been tracked, and has only been recently assigned six months after the problem got worse. The 'official representative' wasn't even clear what the problem was or if it had been fixed. It might be worth bearing this in mind if anyone thinks of using the Feedback website.

                        • 9. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                          Andrew_Hart Level 2

                          Yes, I concur, changing the focus from Bridge in any way (say, reading an open Notepad text file, or checking your email in Outlook (both of which are open but do not have focus until you click on them)) and back to Bridge again causes the extractions message to reappear.

                           

                          Message was edited by: Andrew_Hart

                          • 10. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                            Andrew_Hart Level 2

                            Yammer,

                             

                            After updating to ACR 8.2 for CS6 (not CC), the regeneration of thumbnails problem in Bridge seems to have been fixed for all 4 categories I mentioned in my post #6.

                             

                            Have you had any success along the same lines?

                             

                            Here's hoping.

                            • 11. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                              Yammer Level 4

                              Andrew_Hart wrote:

                               

                              After updating to ACR 8.2 for CS6 (not CC), the regeneration of thumbnails problem in Bridge seems to have been fixed for all 4 categories I mentioned in my post #6.

                               

                              Have you had any success along the same lines?

                              I am on CS6 too. I tried a test folder of cropped rotated lens-corrected images. In 7.2 they regenerated repeatedly. In 8.2 they did not. So, yes, that particular bug appears to be fixed at last. HURRAH!

                               

                              However, disappointingly, I noted that the 7.3 regeneration bug* still appeared to affect other folders. So, for a level playing field, I purged the Bridge cache completely, and rebuilt from scratch, which took quite a few hours yesterday. Now I seem to be getting only a handfull of regenerations on focus, which complete fairly quickly. So, although the problem hasn't gone away completely, it's not causing such a resource drain any more.

                               

                              (* as it's called in the Bridge forum - because it started with 7.3 and we don't know what triggers it)

                              • 12. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                Andrew_Hart Level 2

                                If I was ever aware that there were two (2) thumbnail regeneration problems then I have forgotten about it.

                                 

                                I'll do search for it in the Bridge forum and, if possible, do some tests for myself.

                                 

                                I say "if possible" because because I don't use a central cache for my thumbnails in Bridge but rather have them exported to their relevant folders, so a complete purge of the cache would be just too time consuming to undertake.

                                • 13. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                  Andrew_Hart Level 2

                                  Ah heck! That's the dreaded 14 page thread and nobody knew what caused the problem for poor Yvette.

                                   

                                  No thanks, If there is a problem I've never noticed it.

                                  • 14. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                    Yammer Level 4

                                    Yvette seemed to have it a lot worse than everybody else. She's admittedly non-technical, and I suspect that some of the problem was inappropriate settings. However, both Robert Shomler and I could see the problem, so it's very real.

                                     

                                    Although I managed to isolate the crop-to-edge bug, I have so far been unable to find the trigger for the 7.3 regeneration bug. It's early days with 8.2, but the update seems to have reduced the impact of the bug on my system. For example, I used to see about 20–25% regenerations with 7.3+ (as opposed to about 8% with 7.2). Now I'm seeing less than 4%.

                                    • 15. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                      Yammer Level 4

                                      Having just said that. I'm currently working on a folder of just 35 images, of which 26 are regenerating every time the folder gets focus. That's 75%.

                                       

                                      I duplicated the folder in Bridge, so I could change settings to see what was causing the extractions. I didn't get that far, because the duplicate folder didn't have the problem!

                                       

                                      I cleared the cache for the folder: 15 thumbnails and 1 preview were repeatedly extracted. I cleared it again: now 9 thumbnails. A few more cache purges and it eventually stops. Weird.

                                      • 16. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                        Andrew_Hart Level 2

                                        I just tried to repeat your results, and can't, with several existing folders of images (from 3 different cameras - .CRW, .NEF and .CR2) containing numerous and varied CR edits, including crop and lens profile corrections - but no transforms. I also tried to do so,and can't, with a duplicate folder containing copies of 13 images (.CR2 from a Canon 5D2) from which I have cleared all Develop Settings and then purged the cache for that folder and removed all sidecar .XMPs. Remember, I have Bridge set to export the cache to relevant folders.

                                         

                                        Because you said that you are "working on a folder of just 35 images" I'm assuming that the images contain some CR edits. Can you say what they were so that I can duplicate them - anything at all please, even something such as the default sharpening usually applied unless you have turned it off in a preset.

                                        • 17. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                          Yammer Level 4

                                          Andrew_Hart wrote:

                                           

                                          I just tried to repeat your results, and can't

                                          Even I can't repeat my results.

                                           

                                          Because you said that you are "working on a folder of just 35 images" I'm assuming that the images contain some CR edits. Can you say what they were so that I can duplicate them - anything at all please, even something such as the default sharpening usually applied unless you have turned it off in a preset.

                                          My altered defaults include: Exposure: -0.35, Sharpening: 35/1.0/20/0,  Lens Corrections: on (Setup: Default), Remove Chromatic Aberration: on, Profile: 2012, Adobe Standard.

                                           

                                          Common settings include: Basic temp/tint, exposure/contrast, highlights/shadows, blacks/whites, clarity; Detail: sharpening/radius,/detail/masking; Lens Corrections: distortion, vertical/horizontal, rotate, scale; Crop (I tend to use Rotate-with-Grid more than Straighten); Gradient and Brush adjustments (exposure, highlights, shadows, clarity).

                                           

                                          I appreciate that I may use more settings in Camera Raw than most. The reasoning is that I like to have an almost finished image, in terms of adjustments and composition, BEFORE exporting to Photoshop, which I mainly use for retouching and specialist filters.

                                          • 18. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                            Andrew_Hart Level 2

                                            Yammer,

                                             

                                            Thanks for such a comprehensive reply.

                                             

                                            Sorry for the delay in responding but I have been playing around with your settings and it has taken awhile to get to grips with the anomalous consequences I've noticed.

                                             

                                            Preliminaries: My test folder comprises a copy of 13 .CR2 images from which all previous Develop Settings were removed followed by removal of the.XMP sidecars and finally a Purge Cache for the folder. In the Bridge Preferences\Cache - 'Keep 100% Previews In Cache' is Unselected and 'Automatically Export Cache To Folders When Possible' is Selected.

                                             

                                            Step 1: duplicate your "altered defaults" (3rd last paragraph in your post #17) for all 13 images.

                                             

                                            Caused no problems when switching focus away from Bridge entirely or between folders in Bridge. However, closing and reopening Bridge from the test folder initiated new thumbnail extractions (together with 1 cache export - expected). The weird thing is that, AFAICT, there were only 7 extractions. It happens pretty fast with only 13 images but I did it a number of times and am confident that the number did not exceed 8. And here's something quite unexpected: the same problem occurs, with the same number of extractions, when closing and reopening Photoshop (Ps) whilst Bridge has its focus on the test folder.

                                             

                                            Step 2: remove automatic lens corrections (for the benefit of others, not you Yammer: Unselect Lens Corrections\Profile\Enable Lens Profile Corrections). I chose this as my initial variation of your defaults because it is not normally one of mine.

                                             

                                            This stops the repeating extractions when switching focus away from or within Bridge (which was never there anyway) but also after closing and reopening Bridge and or Ps.

                                             

                                            Step 3: add back automatic lens corrections.

                                             

                                            Again, no problem when switching focus within or away from Bridge, but the repeated extractions, with the same number, return after closing and reopening Bridge and or Ps (whilst the focus in Bridge is on the test folder).

                                             

                                            So, at least for me, contrary to what I believed in my post #10, the re-extractions problem is not resolved, and it seems likely to be related to, if not caused entirely by, whether or not you have selected lens corrections.

                                             

                                            Don't know whether any of this helps you, Yammer, but maybe a starting point for further investigation?

                                            • 19. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                              Andrew_Hart Level 2

                                              My conclusion in post #18 that reoccurring thumbnail extractions on my system (Win 7x64, latest CS6 Ps & Bridge and CR 8.2) may be caused by enabling auto lens profile correction is invalid because it was unsupported by sufficiently rigorous testing.

                                               

                                              Tests completed today have confirmed that, where the sole edit in CR is auto lens profile correction, then no re-extractions occur under any of the following conditions:

                                               

                                              a. switching the focus in Bridge away from and back to the test folder;

                                               

                                              b. switching focus completely away from Bridge (from within the test folder or any folder) (to, say, Outlook or any other program, including Ps) and back again to Bridge (whether the test folder or any other folder);

                                               

                                              c. closing Bridge (from within the test folder or any other folder) and reopening Bridge (to the test folder or any other folder), closing and reopening Ps, or closing and reopening both of them.

                                               

                                              It may be that enabling auto lens profile correction coupled with one or more edits in CR might have been causing or contributing to my re-extractions behaviour, but any such conclusion will have to await further testing which I am now undertaking.

                                               

                                              My apologies to anyone following this thread who may have been misled.

                                              • 20. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                                Yammer Level 4

                                                The only consistent behaviour we noticed in the Bridge forum is that, if you delete the XMP files, the problem stops. Other than that, it has been (so far) impossible to recreate the problem from one folder to another. As I said above, even copying a problem folder is not guaranteed to recreate the problem, as it seems to be the cache which causes the discrepancy.

                                                • 21. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                                  Andrew_Hart Level 2

                                                  Can you provide me with a link to the thread (or the threads ?) on the Bridge forum to which you have referred?

                                                   

                                                  I've had a suspicion that the .XMP files may have had some significance (hence my deletion of them before commencing all my tests) but have had no idea why their presence or absence should be the cause of the problem.

                                                   

                                                  My additional tests have produced wildly erratic and inconsistent results (the problem also seems to be only intermittent - hopeless to try and diagnose) which has just about convinced me to give the whole project away and abandon ACR for Capture One.

                                                  • 22. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                                    Yammer Level 4

                                                    Andrew_Hart wrote:

                                                     

                                                    Can you provide me with a link to the thread (or the threads ?) on the Bridge forum to which you have referred?

                                                    I could, but I'd have to read through 14 pages of it first! It's all in the same laborious thread mentioned above. If someone made me moderator for a day, I'd delete 3/4 of it.

                                                     

                                                    One user did mention that they recommended using a Camera Raw database instead of sidecars to avoid the problem, although I couldn't confirm this myself, and am not prepared to try when I have many thousands of XMP files already.

                                                     

                                                    One problem with diagnosis was that we were several pages in before I discovered the crop bug was a separate issue. Many of the observations cannot be attributed to one bug or the other. Ideally, we should start again, now that the crop bug has been fixed. It's a bit like herding cats in the Bridge forum though.

                                                    • 23. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                                      Andrew_Hart Level 2

                                                      I see now and completely understand.

                                                       

                                                      Did not realize you were referring to the 14 page thread.

                                                       

                                                      I did read all those pages once (you gave me the link in another context, I think) but cannot remember any discussion about XMP files. I'm certainly not going to read them again!

                                                       

                                                      I'm done with this issue now. No point in flogging a dead horse that Adobe refuses to recognize even as a horse.

                                                      • 25. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                                        Andrew_Hart Level 2

                                                        Thanks, I re-read page 9 and could see the discussion about XMP. My memory really is dreadful.

                                                         

                                                        However, I'm still not tempted to persist with trying to isolate what causes the repeated extractions problem because it is truly complex. When the problem is characterized by 3 factors (intermittent (it just does not happen all the time!!), partial (not all thumbnails always regenerate - why the heck not, when the image files are virtually identical in size and taken with the same camera within minutes of each other and all contain identical ACR edits???) and inconsistent - see below) it really is beyond by simple skills to diagnose.

                                                         

                                                        Re "inconsistent", here are just some of the re-extraction results I produced yesterday:

                                                         

                                                        First: by repeatedly closing and reopening Bridge focused on my test folder (now with 38 files in it with the following ACR edits:  auto Lens Profile Correction, Exposure - 0.35, Sharpening 30/1/20/0): 10,9,8,10,12,10

                                                         

                                                        Secondly: after the closing/reopening exercise, switching focus away from and back to the test folder within Bridge: 8,8,9,10,10,5,10.

                                                         

                                                        Frankly, I think its up to Adobe both to diagnose and to fix this problem and I also think that it's a disgrace that it has not, obviously, devoted an all-out effort to do so. 

                                                         

                                                        Message was edited by: Andrew_Hart

                                                        • 26. Re: Cropping to an edge confuses Adobe Bridge?
                                                          Yammer Level 4

                                                          Andrew_Hart wrote:

                                                           

                                                          Frankly, I think its up to Adobe both to diagnose and to fix this problem and I also think that it's a disgrace that it has not, obviously, devoted an all-out effort to do so. 

                                                          Once I had identified the trigger for the (pre 7.3) crop/lens bug, it took Adobe 3 months to fix. I had known about the bug for 2–3 years, but not what caused it, and logged it on the feedback site in 2011.

                                                           

                                                          It seems to me that the best way to get something fixed by Adobe is to actively seek a reproducable error, rather than rely on them blindly looking for it themselves. Although, in this case, I believe that several Adobe staff have been able to reproduce the fault themselves, albeit haphazardly, like us.