27 Replies Latest reply on Jun 21, 2013 11:38 AM by camilo umaña

    A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files

    camilo umaña Level 1

      Arguing that some changes to a reprint page or other elements could be changed.

       

      But this involves give also the cooking of the files. (Inventions, personal formulas, Greps, etc)

       

      How to resolve this as the PDF does not sound good enough for him?

       

      It is a very good thread to this in

       

      http://aigasf.org/community/legalities/do_you_have_to_give_your_freelance_client_your_digi tal_files

       

      but in the legal matter.

        • 1. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
          Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          It comes down to what the agreement was when you made the deal. Was it discussed that they would get a print ready pdf? Or was it discussed they would get the files?

           

          If you only agreed to a PDF then that's what they get. And if they want the open files then you should charge appropriately.

           

          You could be really mean and "break all links to styles"

           

          Remove your GREPS and automatically override master page items and just give them a very vanilla version of your file.

          • 2. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
            winterm Level 4

            You may find useful this nice free script:

            TurnGrepStyles2CharStyles.jsx (google for it)

             

            and maybe this thread

            http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1074387?tstart=0

            • 3. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
              camilo umaña Level 1

              Please, could you explain this line just alittle more? Thank you. Sounds very good.

              Remove your GREPS and automatically override master page items and just give them a very vanilla version of your file.

              Your idea of charging more is perfect. No discussions, no theories, no lawyers.

              • 4. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                camilo umaña Level 1

                Yes, the script TurnGrepStyles2CharStyles.jsx was fine.

                The another one gave an error but I will ask in the original thread.

                 

                 

                But they worked  only in CS6. I have to write a new thread about this CC annoyance.

                 

                 

                Thank you.

                • 5. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                  Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Well a "vanilla" version basically means that you've taken out all the hard work you've done - like Master Pages.

                   

                  Firstly make a Copy of the file and store the original safely.

                   

                  On the copy

                   

                  If you select all the Pages in the Pages Panel and then use the sub menu of the panel (top right of panel) and choose Override all master page items.

                   

                  You can then go your A master, B Master and remove all the items from them.

                   

                   

                  You can also select all your text and in the Sub Menu of the Paragraph Styles you can choose "Break Link to Styles" then delete all the styles you've created.

                   

                  You can use the script

                  http://indesignsecrets.com/free-scripts-help-fix-word-formatting.php

                   

                  Instructions

                  http://indesignsecrets.com/how-to-install-scripts-in-indesign.php

                   

                  And this will convert all your Grep styles to character styles.

                   

                   

                  Again by selecting all the Text you can Break the link to the Character Styles in the Character Style panel.

                   

                   

                   

                  This way - what they get is all the content, but they won't get your innovative GREPs or handy styles for styling the document.

                  • 6. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                    TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Hi Camilo,

                     

                    Simpler is just, with no text selected, select all the paragraph styles

                    in the paragraph style palette, and delete them. Replace with [No

                    Paragraph Style] and tick "Preserve Formatting". Do the same for the

                    character styles.

                     

                    Ariel

                    • 7. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                      camilo umaña Level 1

                      Yes it is a real solution.

                      Sorry for aks this long explanation.

                       

                      As in master pages I usually only have folios and headings removing will alter too much the layout.

                      I cannot understand the scope of this idea.

                       

                      But for beginning is a very good step to break link styles.

                       

                      Thanks again.

                      • 8. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                        Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        The scope of the idea?

                         

                        They want the files, you don't want to hand over your clever tricks you used to make it happen.

                         

                        The idea is to give them the file, but remove the items that you don't want to share with them.

                        • 9. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                          I understand that you don't want to share your proprietary content, but do you ever want to work for theses folks again? You won't if you do what's being suggested here.

                           

                          Why not just tell them that you don't deliver raw files because they contain proprietary information, and that you want to be sure they are converted to PDF using the correct settings, and that you'd be more than happy to make any changes they need for a nominal cost, or even free, as a gesture of goodwill? Send along a PDF enabled for commenting that they can mark up and return.

                          • 10. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                            Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Really depends on relationship with the client.

                             

                            I don't think it would burn bridges. If it wasn't in the original contract they have no obligation to supply the raw files. If they want to buy them they should have that option.

                             

                            If the user has made specific greps and styles for the production of the book then they can choose to remove them and retain the integritity of the layout.

                             

                            If the client wants to pay even more they can have the file as is.

                             

                             

                            I receive files from designers regularly and they strip out most of the content. I don't mind because I rebuild the content anyway.

                             

                             

                            On the other hand - I always just send files on as they are - I don't charge any extra, but if they can't work the file it's not my fault. I repeatedly get asked "how do you change this and that" and I just tell them if they want me to make the changes I will for a fee - otherwise the file is there's and I can't offer support for free.

                             

                             

                            If you go Peters route of Marked Up Annotations in the PDF from the client I recommend the Annotations Plugin from DTP Tools http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=anid

                            • 11. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                              Another reason for not providing native files is version compatibility, by the way.

                              • 12. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                camilo umaña Level 1

                                Yes, good point. But it is hazardous. Sometimes "Preserve Formatting"is not available.

                                • 13. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                  Eugene Tyson wrote:

                                   

                                  Really depends on relationship with the client.

                                   

                                  I don't think it would burn bridges. If it wasn't in the original contract they have no obligation to supply the raw files. If they want to buy them they should have that option.

                                   

                                  Well it doesn't sound like there was a formal contract, and if I asked for the original files and received adulterated versions that were missing GREP styles, or any other feature that would allow me to edit properly (and I figured it out), I'd never do business with the person providing them again, and I wouldn't recommend them to anyone else, either.

                                   

                                  But that's me. I hardly think any GREP expression or styling trick is the sort of thing one should keep secret, especially if you've had someone else's help in constructing it. If I'm hired to do a job, any asset produced for that job is avaialble to the client on request. I'll even send the files to a competitor if the client decides to dump me, but nobody has asked me to do that yet.

                                  • 14. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                    camilo umaña Level 1

                                    Yes, Peter. That is fair. You cannot send the client a vanilla file at least the client will be informed of this.

                                    In this case is no formal contract or specifications. Just design a piece and give a file to print.

                                     

                                    I am talking of situations where the client (ignorant) assumes that he is paying for the present and the future.

                                     

                                    The point behind this thread is obtaining help and information to clear a dark situation coming many years ago when designers have been giving free opened files and sometimes fonts!

                                     

                                    Two points are now to discuss with the client, perhaps.

                                    First: if he wants opened files must pay and additional fee. (This may be based on future uses and evaluation of  special extra work involved in the design... or if the work may be used for sets of identical pieces, etc)

                                    Second: only receives the PDF, buy the fonts and pay –the same designer or a third one– for the minor changes required.

                                     

                                    Thank you.

                                    • 15. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                      You are under no obligation to supply the fonts (and in fact are generally legally prevented from doing so by the font license). If you bought them specifically for that client (and charged them for doing so) and use them for nothing else and will remove them from your system when you transfer the font license, it's a nice gesture to transfer them, but not, I think a necessity.

                                      • 16. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                        MW Design Level 4

                                        If I'm hired to do a job, any asset produced for that job is avaialble to the client on request. I'll even send the files to a competitor if the client decides to dump me, but nobody has asked me to do that yet.

                                        This statement of Peter's is what I have always done. It is amazing how many times in the past where I have turned files over *and* they have used another firm for maybe years, they have come back to me eventually. And sometimes they haven't.

                                         

                                        The catalog I did last year was explicitly spec'd for handing over the files--but I always do anyway. I include a readme.txt file for minimal use instructions that cover things like fonts, which I never supply. It has suggested web sites to purchase the same fonts and I tell them they may have reflow (and other) issues should their font version(s) be newer than mine. It also includes a brief on when and how to use paragraph and character styles, tables and merges (if that was the source), etc.

                                         

                                        It was initially difficult for me to begin handing over source files. I felt the customers were somehow trying to cut me out of the picture for future work. That was back in 1989. I am still updating manuals and catalogs, ads and booth materials for some of them.

                                         

                                        Take care, Mike

                                        • 17. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                          Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          I see it this way - you can offer 3 pricing structures, and something I offer to clients. Because I don't think they would hire someone if they could do it themselves, so complicated GREP strings could really frustrate them - so removing them is probably best and replace them with the appropriate character styles.

                                           

                                          Anyway - the 3 structures would be

                                           

                                          1. A print ready pdf

                                          2. A vanilla file they can make basic edits to

                                          3. A full file with all the bells and whistles

                                           

                                           

                                          As for "what to do when they ask for files" - I think you should consider outlining your price structure and your deliverables clearly before accepting to start the project and have them agree on it in writing.

                                          • 18. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                            Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            MikeWenzloff wrote:

                                             

                                            If I'm hired to do a job, any asset produced for that job is avaialble to the client on request. I'll even send the files to a competitor if the client decides to dump me, but nobody has asked me to do that yet.

                                            This statement of Peter's is what I have always done. It is amazing how many times in the past where I have turned files over *and* they have used another firm for maybe years, they have come back to me eventually. And sometimes they haven't.

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                            I agree - I think people took me up wrong on this - I did say "if you want to be mean about it"

                                             

                                            Not saying it's the right thing to do - but consider the user level of this person too - perhaps something very uncomplex like a file they can just type into and not worry about syles.

                                             

                                            You might have a grep style to change the characters before a ":" and the client decides to change this to a "-" and the style disappears!

                                             

                                            Make it a basic file for them to edit - remove nested and grep styles and this should make it easier for them update the file.

                                            • 19. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                              I have one pricing structure (in theory, though I do have different levels of hourly rates depending on the client and how much work they send or how much I dislike them ), I charge by the hour. Someone asks for something, they pay for the time it takes to do it. For a new client with potential to become a long-term account I'll sometimes discount that for time spent re-drawing logos that come in as jpeg or building a template, and it ALWAYS gets billed at full price, with the discount spelled out so they can see it. If I'm able to reuse assets to reduce the time for other projects they save some money and I save some time I can use here.

                                              • 20. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                I don't think you should dumb down a file that is not intended for a dumb client. That reinforces the notion that htey have the skills required to do your job, which they don't. Sent the real thing and let them drown for awhile before they call you and ask for help they should have asked for to begin with. It builds respect.

                                                • 21. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                                  camilo umaña Level 1

                                                  Artists and photographers get very easy the handling of fees.

                                                   

                                                  But the designers? Without a real have a designer the right to ask a customer about a special design? Not a catalogue, as usually they are not reprinted. But what about a museum guide that they have been using for many years with many reprints? It is possible to define a fare? I am in that case.

                                                  • 22. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                    Why should it matter how many times a project is reprinted? How many times did you create it. If you built houses, you wouldn't get paid again each time the house was sold to a new owner. You were paid to design a museum guide, you did that, the guide is now the property of the museum to use for as long as they like, any way they like.

                                                    • 23. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                                      MW Design Level 4

                                                      If you have defined usage rights that explicitly called for one-time use, there should also be language in the contract for the eventuality of a reprint. I can see this applying to art prints, not a guide. But if your contract provides for such things *and* they agreed to it, then I can see charging for the rights of reprint...I have never seen/heard of a designer including such language in a contract for design and layout work of this type.

                                                       

                                                      In any case, it seems you desire to go this direction of holding onto the files, for perhaps charging for reprints, etc. So just do/try it. I hope it works out for you.

                                                       

                                                      Mike

                                                      • 24. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                                        camilo umaña Level 1

                                                        In some sense it is valid the hypothetical question. A client pays for design only the first time, and through reprints get free to pay again this item to obtain an additional value with the same design. The quality of the design is part of the success. In some sense, it matters. If I design a house I would prefer that the drawings will not be used forever. Is not the morality at all. Are facts.

                                                        • 25. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                          Then you need to have a contract that specifies single use.

                                                          • 26. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                                            camilo umaña Level 1

                                                            Yes, for the moment graphic design is not entitled to obtain shares on reprints, as industrial designers use to do. Perhaps type and editorial design is related to the very old times, just before the yuppie euphoria with beautiful (not beatific) things governed our life.

                                                            • 27. Re: A client is asking to give them the ID «open» files
                                                              camilo umaña Level 1

                                                              Thank you Peter. Was a very good thread.