14 Replies Latest reply on Jul 8, 2013 1:52 PM by rob day

    Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images

    G.Hoffmann Level 3

      Does InDesign CS6 export pages with Grayscale images as PDF with embedded profiles?

       

      Possible profiles, for instance:

      – Gamma 2.2

      – Dot gain 20%

      – Black Ink ISO Coated v2 (ECI)

       

      Export mode:

      – Acrobat 5 or higher

      – No color conversion

      – Embed all profiles

       

      Test by Acrobat Pro

      Advanced > Print production > Preflight > PDF analysis > List objects using ICC/Lab/Calibrated Color

       

      [The question is not about the export of Color images as Grayscales]

       

      Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

        • 2. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
          G.Hoffmann Level 3

          Peter, thanks for the information.

           

          I would be grateful for an example, a PDF with Grayscales with embedded profiles.

           

          Another question:

           

          Does InDesign CS6 "honor" embedded profiles of placed Grayscales?

           

          Let's assume the same gray image, packed as Grayscales using and embedding

          these profiles:

          – Gamma 2.2

          – Dot gain 20%

          – Black Ink ISO Coated v2 (ECI)

           

          The preview in InDesign should be exactly the same. It wasn't, since many years.

          How is the situation now – in CS6?

           

          Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

          • 3. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

            ID does not honor grayscale profiles internally. As always, whatever value is in the image will be used as-is and transfered to the black channel of the document CMYK working space.

             

            I'll send you a PDF off-list that I just exported to gamma 2.2 as a test. I'm not at liberty to share it generally.

            • 4. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              And note that you cannot use "No color Conversion" to export a grayscale PDF. You MUST convert to a grayscale profile, so perhaps my first repsonse isn't really correct in the context of your orignal question. When you export to grayscale, the entire document is converted, and the destination profile will be embedded if you choose to do so.

              • 5. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
                G.Hoffmann Level 3

                Peter, thanks again, especially for the correction about Export.

                 

                I'm working since many years in this field – improving already good photos,

                preparation for offset printing, wide format and proof printing.

                So far I'm using CS2. Absolutely sufficient, besides some fundamental problems,

                which are not yet solved:

                Honoring embedded Grayscale profiles in InDesign

                Embedding Grayscale profiles in PDFs

                Actual, I stopped upgrading because I didn't have the impression that anybody

                cared about.

                 

                This is of great importance for wide format printing of PDFs by high end RIPs:

                The mode 'use embedded profile'  would be meaningless for Grayscale com-

                ponents in mixed PDFs. My suggestion at present is to define all input profiles

                explicitly, based on a priori knowledge.

                A discussion (or monologue) about is here:

                http://forums.adobe.com/message/5472593#5472593

                Contains this link:

                http://docs-hoffmann.de/cmsflow03072013.pdf

                 

                Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                 

                And thanks for the private message – what a perfect service!

                • 6. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  I think the best thing would be to download the CS2 trial and see what it does for yourself.

                  • 7. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    Sorry, my bad typing rears up again. That should be CS6 trial...

                    • 8. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
                      G.Hoffmann Level 3

                      Thanks, a good advice – CS6 trial – before everything turns into gold (CC).

                       

                      Best regards -- Gernot Hoffmann

                      • 9. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        CS6 still does not honor grayscale profiles—ID has no grayscale  space.

                         

                        When you export to PDF/X-4 which includes all profiles, grayscale objects show as DeviceGray (no profile) in Acrobat's Output Preview Object inspector.

                        • 10. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          You can embed grayscale profiles with AcrobatPro. So here's an InDesign page with CMYK objects and a grayscale image, exported as PDF/X-4. If I click on the grayscale image with Object Inspector selected I can see it's deviceGray:

                           

                          Screen Shot 2013-07-08 at 10.33.58 AM.png

                           

                           

                           

                          You can use convert colors to convert grayscale objects to a gray profile and embed the profile

                           

                           

                          Screen Shot 2013-07-08 at 10.30.48 AM.png

                           

                           

                           

                          After, Object Inspector shows calibrated gray

                           

                           

                          Screen Shot 2013-07-08 at 10.33.14 AM.png

                          • 11. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
                            G.Hoffmann Level 3

                            Rob, thanks, very helpful.

                             

                            I'm using Acrobat Pro 8, you have proably a newer version. I can convert

                            Device Gray into any Calibrated Gray with embedded profile, but it seems

                            not to be possible for single images.

                            In this test page I've three different Grayscales which came from Photoshop

                            with three different profiles.

                             

                            http://docs-hoffmann.de/riptest05072013.pdf

                            4.6 MB because of ZIP and embedded profiles.

                             

                            Do you think I can convert the three images one after the other, using the

                            three profiles explicitly? Perhaps by a newer version of Acrobat?

                            I did try to select one image by Touch up Object tool, but the conversion

                            applies to all.

                             

                            By the way, this doc contains three RGB profiles and two CMYK profiles.

                            This doesn't require PDF/X-4.

                            I wouldn't ever use different RGB profiles and different CMYK profiles and

                            different Gray profiles in one doc – it's just necessary for tests.

                             

                            Any advice is always very welcome. I apologize for not following this point

                            system.

                             

                            Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                            • 12. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
                              Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                              By definition, the DeviceGray of the PDF/X-4 file is equated to the the gray color space indicated by the output intent profile. Don't let the DeviceGray designation confuse you. This is fully color-managed grayscale (I know that this sounds like a contradiction in terms).

                               

                                        - Dov

                              • 13. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                I think Gernot is asking about the potential loss of the starting grayscale source profile in Photoshop.

                                 

                                So if I assign the (default) 20% Dot Gain gray profile to an image, make corrections, and place the image in ID with a document profile of US Sheetfed Coated, its separation preview will change quite a bit because the grayscale preview is now color managed in ID by US Sheetfed and not 20% Dot Gain (the gray profile is ignored).

                                 

                                If I then export to PDF/X-4 default the output intent is  US Sheetfed Coated and the changed grayscale preview is maintained.

                                 

                                A solution is to make the gray assignment US Sheetfed Coated in Photoshop before editing and the preview will be maintained to the PDF, but there's nothing intuitive about that.

                                • 14. Re: Export as PDF with embedded profiles for Grayscale images
                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  I wouldn't ever use different RGB profiles and different CMYK profiles and

                                  different Gray profiles in one doc – it's just necessary for tests.

                                   

                                  If you had a hypothetical case where your InDesign document's assigned CMYK profile and intended output was ISOcoated_v2_300_eci and you recieved grayscales for placement with different gray profiles assigned, I think you would have to make the conversion in Photoshop if you want the grayscales to be converted to your ISOcoated_v2_300_eci output intent space.

                                   

                                  So in this case I have a grayscale image with Dot Gain 10% assigned and you can see the 50% patch is reading as 50% in Info panel:

                                   

                                   

                                  ScreenCap001.png

                                   

                                  If set my Working Gray space to the ISO Coated profile as above and do a Convert to Profile with the Destination set to Working Gray:

                                   

                                  ScreenCap002.png

                                   

                                   

                                  The preview doesn't change but I get converted gray values—50% is now 44%:

                                   

                                  ScreenCap003.png

                                   

                                  If I place the grayscale in an InDesign doc with ISOcoated_v2_300_eci assigned as the CMYK profile, the preview won't change (you have to turn on Overprint /Sep Preview), and the converted numbers will show in Separation Preview. The preview and numbers will also be unchanged in Acrobat if you export to default PDF/X-4