1 2 Previous Next 78 Replies Latest reply on Jul 15, 2013 4:48 PM by Peter Spier

    Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?

    dissidently Level 1

      In the below image the Dark blue line is my Stroke around the Rectangle Frame.  But the outer thin line is the actual size of the Frame.  Why is the Stroke in the middle of a "border" construct, and how do I edit the size of this?

       

      I actually like this functionality, but I don't know what it's called, how it got "turned on" or where to edit its properties. 

       

      don't know why it even happened. 

       

      Screen Shot 2013-07-11 at 5.53.32 AM.png

        • 1. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
          Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          The inner light blue line is a Text Inset and can be edited in the Object>Text Frame Options http://help.adobe.com/en_US/indesign/cs/using/WSa285fff53dea4f8617383751001ea8cb3f-6fb2a.h tml#WSa285fff53dea4f8617383751001ea8cb3f-6f8ba

           

          The Outer Light blue line is called a "Text Wrap" http://helpx.adobe.com/indesign/using/text-wrap.html

           

           

          You are able to manually edit a Text Wrap by selecting the Text Frame with the Direct Selection Tool (White Arrow) which you have done for your screen shot.

           

          Selecting the frame with the Selection Tool (Black Arrow tool) you will see the nodes on the outer line disappear.

          • 2. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
            dissidently Level 1

            No, the inner line is not a text inset line.  It's an indicator of the "natural" width of the stroke.

             

            The "style" of the stroke was such that it's width was 10% (or something like that) of the complete width possible.  The light blue lines are the extent of the "natural" width of the stroke.  30 points, in this case, but because the line style reduced it... this is the result. 

             

            I had previously created a custom stroke style to get around the inability to resize an arrow head relative to a line weight, and for some reason this had stuck, as some kind of default, when I drew this rectangle.  Hence the problem...

             

            How do I set a default graphic style? It seems not to stick.  Different things happening each time.

            • 3. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              Defualts are set with nothing selected. If you do it with no file open it also sets the default for new files, otherwise it's aonly applicable tot he current file.

              • 4. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                dissidently Level 1

                If I've made an object and I kind of like it for my defaults... how do I set it's properties to be the new default?

                • 5. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  What sort of an object? 

                   

                  For a text frame it might be easiest to sve it as an Object Style and move the "T" icon onto it.

                  • 6. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                    dissidently Level 1

                    Something like the attached image.  A shape. 

                     

                    What is this "T" icon you speak of? 

                    • 7. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      You'll see it if you open the Object Styles panel. It starts out next to Basic Text Frame...

                       

                      Image frames cannot have a default stroke or fill unless you create an Object Style called Place Gun Frame (which will be used for ALL image frames drawn on the fly, whether it is selected or not), but shapes will use the current default graphics frame object style (the empty icon) or the current stroke and  fill settings if you change them with nothing selected.

                      • 8. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                        dissidently Level 1

                        Sort of tried that... why is Character size not stored in this "default" mechanism?

                         

                        Font type is not remember when I redefine it either.

                        • 9. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                          Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                          Did you define a character and paragraph style? Are they selected by default? (Default, when not text is selected in the current object or for the application when no document is open.)

                           

                          BTW The definition of your stroke is very unusual. If you need special kind of arrow heads and lines you should consider to draw your graphics in Illustrator and place the ai file in InDesign.

                          • 10. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            Font parameters can be saved as part of the object style, too. That's up to you to determine. There are three states for the checkboxes for parameters in an object style: Checked, which applies that parameter, blank, which excludes it from the style, and shaded which includes it, but uses whatever value happens to be present when applying the style.

                            • 11. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                              dissidently Level 1

                              Yeah, and making arrows in Illustrator is a "joy" too.  I'm beginning to understand much of the world's complaints about Adobe software. It's truly extraordinary that this is the best of 2D design suites.

                               

                               

                              Not having a "SEARCH" box in the keyboard shortcuts section of Indesign is the single greatest indictment of Adobe's lack of care for its customers.

                               

                              Screen Shot 2013-07-15 at 7.42.31 AM.png

                               

                              This suite really is a service, not an asset.  I get why they've gone to the subscription model.  Time is being cruel to their litany of legacy clunkiness.

                              • 12. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                dissidently Level 1

                                Ok, this might be my lack of knowledge of Adobe's lexicon coming into play.

                                 

                                What do you mean by "checkboxes for parameters in an object style"?

                                 

                                Screen Shot 2013-07-15 at 8.13.57 AM.png

                                • 13. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                  Double-clcik the stayl name to open the Style Defintion dialog where you get to make your settings....

                                  • 14. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                    dissidently Level 1

                                    There's only, apparently, two states... checked, or dashed, as Paragraph Styles is in this image. 

                                     

                                    I'm beginning to think it might be faster to do things manually.

                                     

                                    Screen Shot 2013-07-15 at 8.22.35 AM.png

                                    • 15. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                      dissidently Level 1

                                      Ok. I'm beginning to think Adobe does these things just to annoy users.

                                       

                                      Why doesn't this toolbar, when a text frame is selected, have a box to adjust the "Inset Spacing" of the text frame?

                                       

                                      Screen Shot 2013-07-15 at 8.24.39 AM.png

                                      Why is such a common thing as adjusting a text frame's space around its text hidden in another menu?

                                       

                                      And why is the setting inside the <OBJECT> Menu and not in the <TYPE> Menu?

                                       

                                      Screen Shot 2013-07-15 at 8.29.39 AM.png

                                      • 16. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                        Ah, so it is for the stuff in the top half. The dash is waht I termed shaded (it's OS dependent) and means ignore.

                                        • 17. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                          Maybe you'd prefer to work in Quark Xpress..?

                                          • 18. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                            MW Design Level 4

                                            Hey now...I have been using QXP for a month or two again. Different, yes. Last version I used in earnest was 6. Man, it takes a bit of a mind-shift when using both ID and QXP on the same day. Both definitely have quirks in the UI and how to accomplish something.

                                             

                                            When I switch to QXP to work on something, I haven't yet figured out whether it is best to shake my head from side to side, or bang it against the wall, to begin rethinking properly. At various times, one method seems more effective than the other.

                                             

                                            Sorry for the bandwidth. No solution for the OP.

                                            • 19. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                              Hey Mike, I haven't actively used a version of QXP since 6.5 or held a job that was Q-based in at least 6 years, but I suspect I'd turn down an offer from a Q-based shop if one were to materialize. I have enough headaches without banging my head.

                                              • 20. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                dissidently Level 1

                                                I've never tried Quark. I come from 3D software... where things make a little more sense, despite three former competitors now being wrapped up in one company.

                                                 

                                                After Effects was my entry point to the Adobe way of doing things.  I've always excused Photoshop as just being a bloated pig that one must deal with. 

                                                 

                                                I didn't expect to see the grotesque errors in usability and gaps in functionality After Effects suffers from permeate throughout Indesign and Illustrator.  But they seem to be far worse than AE in this regards.

                                                 

                                                Some of the oversights in Illustrator are simply staggering.  Vertically centering text, anyone?

                                                 

                                                And Indesign's UI might be one of the best examples of not thinking something through from a designers point of view that I've seen.  "Indesign" is the most appropriate name... cause this program is still clearly early in its design stage.

                                                 

                                                Indesign is still in design.

                                                • 21. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                  You should try some of the competing programs and you'd come to appreciate, despite the flaws you perceive, just how much better ID really is.

                                                   

                                                  I also think you'd benefit from some basic training.

                                                  • 22. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                    dissidently Level 1

                                                    Ok, let's take that last line, because I honestly don't think something as simple as layout design or illustration should require basic training... because anyone making software for such a purpose should, in the shortest possible time, articulate their methodologies and paradigms, their strengths and their weaknesses, and layout exactly what can and can't be done.

                                                     

                                                    Howeve it seems Adobe has become utterly complacent and a little arrogant.

                                                     

                                                    I can't find ANYTHING that resembles the above description in either video or document format.  It shouldn't be upon me to find that.  It should simply exist, as the first starting point of use of these apps.

                                                     

                                                    SHORTEST possible time is the key element here.

                                                     

                                                    Here's our paradigms, here's our methodologies, here's our lexicon for the paradigms and methodlogies... here's the extent of our functionality, and here's the shortfalls of this app.

                                                     

                                                    Done. 

                                                     

                                                    Simple, fast, honest, sincere, and considerate of the consumer. 

                                                     

                                                    Now, to you first line.  Do you honestly believe there is any competing software?

                                                     

                                                    I don't think there is.  Which is where Adobe's arrogance seems to stem from.

                                                    • 23. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                      dissidently Level 1

                                                      Example of unintuitive behaviour.

                                                       

                                                      Three rapid clicks on a block of text is paragraph select.  Good!

                                                       

                                                      Change properties of font, size etc.. all normal, as one might expect.

                                                       

                                                      Paragraph remains selected.

                                                       

                                                      Click "Create New Style" in the Paragraph Style, at this point, and I'd assume that would create a new paragraph style based on the currently selected paragraph, and apply it to this paragraph.

                                                       

                                                      Both assumptions are wrong.

                                                       

                                                      1. It's not applied.

                                                      2. When I do apply it, the size is wrong, I watch the text jump in size... yet it's the same text I used to create this new style. 

                                                      • 24. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                        Indesign, and Quark Xpress, are marketed to professionals. They have very steep learning curves and lots of idiosyncracies and hidden features. You should not presume that because ID is from Adobe and sahres a similar look with other members of the Creative Suite that it has much in common with how another member of the suite behaves, or that it works the way YOU think it ought to becasue that seems intuitve to you.

                                                         

                                                        Much of the way that ID has evolved is based on feedback from real users who work with the program day in and day out, and the feature set does what they have request it should do. Of course not all users agree on everything, and there is always room for improvement, but the ID development team is perhaps the most responsive group of engineers you'll ever meet, and they really do work very hard to give us what we want, even giving us multiple choices for things that might be more personal preference than anything else. Feel free to make your own requests at Adobe - Feature Request/Bug Report Form

                                                         

                                                        The best vido training around is probably at Lynda.com. If, like me, you like books instead, Sandee Cohen's Visual QuickStart Guide to InDesign should be your first purchase, and Real World InDesign by David Blatner et al should probably be your second (you seem like you can handle the more advanced coverage).

                                                        • 25. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                          And don't be insulted by the "basic" training suggestion. I don't know anyone, including myself, who "got it" right away when using ID, and I sarted using ID for production back at version 2.0 after being a Quark power-user for years. It's a new paradigm or mindset.

                                                          • 26. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                            dissidently Level 1

                                                            I am familiar with how Indesign came to be.

                                                             

                                                            And the claims of usability.  Etc.  But this is from people that have grown up with it, through that gestation period from idea to reality deliberately designed to compete with Quark.  I had friends that used Quark and switched early on.  I've been around "print design" guys for a long while.  3D doesn't exist in a vacuum.

                                                             

                                                            Now, coming at it from a new users point of view, this late into its development, it's still a work in progress. Indesign usability is a LONG way down the list, because everyone's come from Quark, which, by all accounts, was a bit of a grappler, so your expectations of usability are somewhat less than the rest of the world.  And you've lived with Illustrator, which is just an absolutely spectacular clusterfuck. 

                                                             

                                                            So there's been no effort to make it better in this regards, just adding features.

                                                             

                                                            Pretend you're a new user.  How do you go about finding the shortcut for Alighn Text Left, Align Text Right, Align Text Center?

                                                             

                                                            There's your answer to usability.  It's not there. 

                                                             

                                                            The normal way, in every other high end piece of PROFESSIONAL software, is to have a shortcuts editor that is searchable.  I should not have to know the exact location of the menu item to find it, particularly because Adobe doesn't replicate all the panel buttons in its menus, so I can't know how to find something in their current shortcuts editor, even if I know where the button is.

                                                             

                                                            I found the answer through google, on an external site before an Adobe page, when this is probably the single most commonly used shortcut in a text layout and editor program... right?  Or is it Bold and Italics that's the most commonly used shortcut?  And, again, how do I find that shortcut?

                                                            • 27. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                              dissidently Level 1

                                                              I'm not insulted, at all. I'm pointing out that the creator of the software realises they're using unique paradigms and methodologies yet NEVER admits to this, let alone introduces new users to it.

                                                               

                                                              You referenced EXTERNAL learning sources for a professional software package.  That's all you need to say to reinforce my argument. 

                                                              • 28. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                dissidently wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                Both assumptions are wrong.

                                                                 

                                                                1. It's not applied.

                                                                2. When I do apply it, the size is wrong, I watch the text jump in size... yet it's the same text I used to create this new style. 

                                                                Well not entirely. The new style is created, but by default it isn't applied (but if you hold the Alt/Opt key while you click the new style button the defintion dialog will open so you can give it a proper name and theres a check box -- which is sticky -- that says to apply it to the selection, so you get to name and apply the style in one go).

                                                                 

                                                                As far as why the text doesn't take on the attributes you just defined, I don't know exactly what you've done. This kind of thing usually means you've also got a character style applied.

                                                                • 29. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                  I agree that one shouldn't need to go to external sources for help, but Adobe hasn't shipped a manual with their products for years, and the folks who write the help pages are not necessarily actual users.

                                                                   

                                                                  It actually used to be pretty easy to find the default keyboard shortcuts in the help system, before the current incarnation. Adobe documentation is pitiful, at best.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                    Sorry, I should add that I think a lot of the reason that the documentation has gone downhill is the apparent love affair with social media and group particiaption. It works pretty well here in the forums, but it's a disaster for a help system where nobody is vetting the content.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                                      dissidently Level 1

                                                                      So it would appear that Paragraph Styles somehow exist from a base Character Style, but don't reference that link anywhere in themselves.

                                                                       

                                                                      While this might be a good idea, why is it not referenced in the Paragraph Style Parameter Box?

                                                                       

                                                                      And this exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.  Indesign seems to have a nested behaviour going on, but makes apparently no effort to make this transparent to the user.

                                                                       

                                                                      Here's the dialog box, with ZERO reference to the implications or relationships with the Character Style that was (I thought) previously applied, but is somehow still influencing things.

                                                                       

                                                                      Screen Shot 2013-07-15 at 10.41.35 AM.png

                                                                       

                                                                      This is surely a methodology and paradigm of Indesign thinking. There's probably even some benefits to this approach, but here's one glaring issue with it... odd behaviour!

                                                                      • 32. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                                        dissidently Level 1

                                                                        Given that working offline has been proven (in every research ever done) to be massivley more productive, why did anyone in a professional service company (Adobe) ever consider social media embracement as a best means to empowering and educating their users for productivity within their "products"? 

                                                                        • 33. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                                          dissidently Level 1

                                                                          Maybe I'm old fashioned... but I WANT to work offline, without a browser open.  I want the documentation and the manual to be helpful.  And all that I need.  I want that to be my relationship with the company.  I don't want unpaid users in a forum having to try to answer the most menial questions because the manual doesn't exist and the documentation is as scant and badly worded as possible. 

                                                                           

                                                                          User manual.  There's an antiquated notion.  I am old.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                                            MW Design Level 4

                                                                            I basically used VP for all manuals and books from the GEM days through the Corel days. I used QXP for the quick ads, fliers and brochures beginning with v. 3 series. Only began using ID a few versions back. I still use VP on an XP machine for some publication maintainance.

                                                                             

                                                                            I had slowly been moving some QXP stuff (and VP stuff) into ID over the last couple of years. Now a couple of those companies are tweaked over adobe's move to CC and have requested to move it back to QXP. Go figure. So I got the any version upgrade to QXP 9.5 with next months version 10 free.

                                                                             

                                                                            I rebuilt a 400 page catalog in Q I had done in ID in a week. Not bad.

                                                                             

                                                                            The point to the ramble is simply that whether I am using VP, PagePlus, ID or Q for work, all it takes is getting familiar via resources no matter the source of those materials to be functionally literate. From their one gets more proficient the more use one application is used.

                                                                             

                                                                            They all have learning curves. They all have their own idiosyncratic behavior. And none of the companies have in-house learning materials that can cover it all. They are all too complex for such a notion and all can be used for such varied use that they wouldn't have enough staff to try.

                                                                             

                                                                            Mike

                                                                            • 35. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                                              dissidently Level 1

                                                                              How does one company, Autodesk, manage to achieve User Manuals and Documentation of significance for 3 separate products, at an order of magnitude more proficiency and tunedness than anything Adobe has put out for any of its applications in the last 5 years?

                                                                               

                                                                              And how does Autodesk do it in a market that's an order of magnitude smaller than Adobe's with software that's an order of magnitude more complex than anything Adobe makes?

                                                                               

                                                                              And how much profit did Adobe make last year?  What's it on track to make this year?

                                                                               

                                                                              Mike, you're simply wrong.  The resources are not the issue, the people that write the program know it better than anyone else, and understand the nuances and reasonings for every choice they make.  They simply choose not to tell their users any of this, nor share any of their wisdom.

                                                                               

                                                                              That's a choice.  Probably an economic one, but not one you should defend them for making, because it's VIVIDLY clear that other more truly professional companies with VASTLY more complex software are capable of making the opposite choice... to care for their customers and develop a meaningful relationship with them through offline documentation.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                                                MW Design Level 4

                                                                                Well, from a practical perspective, I am not "wrong." Serif PagePlus has a manual, as does Quark. And VP did. In none of those cases (maybe excepting VP) does/did the manual cover all that I have needed to accomplish. That applies also to AutoCAD and turbocad. And Crystal 3d. And Maya and ...

                                                                                 

                                                                                But that isn't the point. The reality is these companies can do what they want with their documentation or, as in adobe's case, the lack thereof. So we all find ourselves in the same boat. Doesn't mean I like it. But that is the reality.

                                                                                 

                                                                                I am thankful for the forums in lieu of concrete documentation. Mike

                                                                                • 37. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                                  dissidently wrote:

                                                                                   

                                                                                  So it would appear that Paragraph Styles somehow exist from a base Character Style, but don't reference that link anywhere in themselves.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Actually no. And this is where you need to learn how to think like an ID user. Paragraph styles carry basic font formatting parameters, and MUST have them, that are applied to all of the text in a paragraph to which the style is applied, UNLESS there is also applied either a character style or a local formatting override.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  The heirarchy is paragraph styles define the basic text appearance, character styles trump paragraph styles and are used to make some text within a paragraph "special." Typically this might be to make a word bold or italic for emphasis, but they can be very simple to very complex, being only a name with no attributes at all for use in variables, to completley redefining all of the font parameters. Since an applied character style is not considered an override and will be preserved when a paragraph style edited or substituted I find that simpler character styles are more useful, such as one that only applies Bold while ignoring everything else about the text, than a character style that includes a face or size. Local formatting overrides are what you get when you select some text and go to the Character panel and mess with the formatting. They trump everything, but can be removed by reapplying the paragraph style using Find/Change or by clicking a paragraph style name while holding down the Alt/Opt key. Adding the Shift key will remove applied character styles as well in a selection.

                                                                                  1 person found this helpful
                                                                                  • 38. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                                                    dissidently Level 1

                                                                                    So I have this wrong.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    After some experimentation it would appear Character Styles can be nested inside Paragraph Styles, and over-ride some aspects of the Paragraph Style.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Good luck to anyone that comes to this thread later trying to figure out where a nice simple table is of which properties can and can't be over-written by Character Styles inside Paragraph Styles, or any other useful documentation on the relationship between these two important parts of layout design.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    For that you probably have to buy an external book or video course. 

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Rectangle Frame stroke "border" control?
                                                                                      dissidently Level 1

                                                                                      Or you could start with Peter Spier's very good introduction to the concept above...

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