27 Replies Latest reply on Jul 18, 2013 2:16 AM by ExactImage

    Confused.  Why is this?

    ExactImage Level 3

      I have three machines here all set up with an identical timeline.  the source footage is mostly Canon MXF (from XF100) and a few smaller shots of AVCHD from a Canon HF G10.  Some shots have warp stabilizer applied.  Some shots have some rotation and zoom applied.  Some shots of colorista II applied (actually the majority).

       

      The three machines are:

       

      Windows 7, 3.4Ghz i7 (SandyBridge) with 16GB of 1600Mhz DDR3 ram, 1x SSD boot, 3x2TB as RAID 0,   GTX570 GPU.

       

      Mac Pro 3,1, 2.8Hgz 8 core with 16GB 800Mhz DDR2 ram, 1xSSD boot, 3x2TB as RAID 0, GTX285 GPU.

       

      MacBookPro (laptop) with 2.5Ghz i7 16GB 1333Mhz DDR3 ram, 1x internal 5400rpm 750GB drive, HD6770M GPU

       

      So, given these specs, why does the MacBooPro blow the doors off both the other machines in terms of rendering this 17 minute timeline?   We're talking almost twice as fast.  How come?

       

      I'm deleting all render files.  Emptying the trash, even rebooting to make sure nothing it cached in ram.  It still runs away with it.  What am I missing here?  I would have expected the laptop to be the slowest of all of them, whereas it's the Windows 7 PC that's the slowest overall, with a much faster CPU, faster HDDs and (I thought) better GPU.

        • 1. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
          Jim_Simon Level 9

          There is only one sound explanation:  You've stepped into Bizarro world.

           

          The real question is, how the hell are you posting to here from there???

          • 2. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
            ExactImage Level 3

            Well, I've done a lot more testing and it seems to be significanty effected by colorista II being there or not.

             

            If I completely remove colorista II (remove all effects) then rendering and exporting go more or less as expected in line with hardware levels. 

             

            If I add an adjustment layer and put colorista II in to it (even with no changes to color) then the MacBookPro just kiils the other two on rendering OR exporting.

             

            I'm really not understanding what it is that's making it so much faster, or rather the other two so much slower with colorista II.  All have identical settings.

            • 3. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
              ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

              Switch to software MPE mode on the Win 7 system and re-run the export. Is there any difference in time?

               

              Eric

              ADK

              • 4. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                ExactImage Level 3

                ECBowen wrote:

                 

                Switch to software MPE mode on the Win 7 system and re-run the export. Is there any difference in time?

                 

                Eric

                ADK

                 

                OK - that was worth trying because it's not something I had considered, but alas it makes no positive difference at all and if anything is marginally slower now. 

                 

                In fact the MacPro (also with MPE in software only) is now significantly faster than the Windows 7 machine whereas with CUDA on it was only marginally faster. Maybe that's the 8 real cores coming in to play instead of 4+4 on the i7.   Even so, the MBP i7 is blasting compared to these two theorectically far superior machines.

                 

                Even turning the Open CL off on the MBP makes no difference either.  It's still twice as fast. 

                 

                Hmmmm.....  < scratching head >

                • 5. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                  What is the export time for the Win 7 system hardware MPE on versus OFF?

                   

                  Eric

                  ADK

                  • 6. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                    ExactImage Level 3

                    OK, here we go.  I decided to do full timings rather than 25%, which is why it took a little while to get back to you.

                     

                     

                    MPE using GPU

                     

                    Windows 7 PC (CUDA)      - 27:24

                    MacPro (CUDA)                 - 21:46

                    MacBookPro (Open CL)    - 11:26

                     

                    MPE Software only

                     

                    Windows 7 PC                - 28:03

                    MacPro                             - 23:01

                    MacBookPro                    - 11:26

                     

                    This says CUDA helped a little but Open CL made no difference.

                     

                    I'm not too bothered than one computer is faster or slower as such, but I'd very much like to understand WHY.  There is something fundamental going on here that I don't have a handle on, which having built PCs from the ground up since the early 80s is causing me to scratch my head.   By all the specs the MBP should be the slowest by some margin, but it's not.   I can see the 800Mhz DDR2 of the MacPro being a handicap, but even that it beating the Windows 7 PC on rendering colorista II.

                     

                    Now, as I said before, if I remove all the effects completely and simply export to an H264 file then the Windows 7 PC is the fastest, not the slowest. So there is something about effects, and in particular colorista II (which we use a lot) that is skewing things.   Hmmm.....

                    • 7. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                      ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                      Ya that means the Hardware MPE is not really working at all on that which is what I suspected. Marginal changes like that is normal with the same player export settings and does not mean the acceleration is working on 1. What sequence settings are you using? Is this direct export or via media encoder?


                      Eric

                      ADK

                      • 8. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                        ExactImage Level 3

                        Sequence settings Canon XF (which is what the majorty of footage is).  Not via ME.

                        • 9. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                          ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                          Just to see, please run the same export via AME and see what the time is with hardware MPE. What video driver do you have installed? Do you have a Matrox device installed in the PC?

                           

                          Edit - What version of Adobe are you running?

                           

                          Eric

                          ADK

                          • 10. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                            ExactImage Level 3

                            Using AME :

                             

                            Windows 7 pc - 29:29

                            MacPro - sorry no time - it's busy on other things

                            MacBookPro - 11:52

                             

                             

                            CS6 (Mac 6.0.2, Windows 6.03)

                            • 11. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                              ExactImage Level 3

                              I should perhaps add that this is not the full 17 minutes of the timeline but just short of 13,000 frames that have colorista II on them.

                              • 12. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                RjL190365 Level 4

                                After looking at your results, I can tell you one thing:

                                 

                                Both of your full-sized desktop systems (especially your Windows i7 PC) have far too many processes going on while your MacBook Pro is configured relatively lean (software-wise).

                                • 13. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                  ExactImage Level 3

                                  RjL190365 wrote:

                                   

                                  After looking at your results, I can tell you one thing:

                                   

                                  Both of your full-sized desktop systems (especially your Windows i7 PC) have far too many processes going on while your MacBook Pro is configured relatively lean (software-wise).

                                   

                                  Well, that's a interesting thought.  Lemme check...... although the Windows machine has been kept deliberately lean with nothing installed other than the adobe CS6 suite, Colorista II plugin and Neat Video plugin. 

                                   

                                  It doesn't collect mail, is not used for web browsing etc etc. But I guess it's worth looking at what has crept in over the last few months in terms of crappy MS updates

                                  • 14. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                    RjL190365 Level 4

                                    Also, as expected, your Mac Pro with dual CPUs is slower than your MacBook Pro because the dual Xeon CPUs in that system are actually older than any i7 CPUs. In fact, the Mac Pro 3.1 has dual Xeons that each are only the equivalent of a Core 2 Quad. And I do know from my own testing that the fastest Core 2 Quad PC is no faster than a Sandy Bridge i3 (dual-core with hyperthreading) CPU-based PC. In fact, at 2.8GHz a Core 2 Quad is still slower than a 3.1GHz Sandy Bridge i3-2100 when it comes to performance in Premiere Pro.

                                     

                                    Also, you might not have installed the latest drivers (especially graphics drivers) for your Windows PC. That could be part of the reason for such sluggish performance.

                                    • 15. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                      ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                      What Nvidia driver version are you using for the 570GTX?

                                       

                                      Eric

                                      ADK

                                      • 16. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                        ExactImage Level 3

                                        RjL190365 wrote:

                                         

                                        Also, as expected, your Mac Pro with dual CPUs is slower than your MacBook Pro because the dual Xeon CPUs in that system are actually older than any i7 CPUs. In fact, the Mac Pro 3.1 has dual Xeons that each are only the equivalent of a Core 2 Quad. And I do know from my own testing that the fastest Core 2 Quad PC is no faster than a Sandy Bridge i3 (dual-core with hyperthreading) CPU-based PC.

                                         

                                        I know the 8 dual xeons are getting dated, but at 5 years old they still hold their own for day to day use.  The ram is also slow, being DDR2.  I'd been considering on and off the new iMac i7 @ 3.4Ghz, which also was one of the reasons I started testing how much faster the 3.4Ghz system would be... only to find it's (the Windows PC) so much slower and I don't know why.   The new MacPro looks both interesting and lacking in storage all at the same time

                                         

                                        At first sight Windows looks pretty clean. There are a couple of processes I don't recognise but they are stopped anyway.  It's idleing at 0% cpu (which I realise is not an acid test).  I may do a complete re-install over the weekend to see if it's any faster.    I just hate the merry-go-round of install-reboot-update-reboot-update-reboot than MS make you do whereas the Mac seems to grab it all in one go.  < sigh >

                                        • 17. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                          ExactImage Level 3

                                          ECBowen wrote:

                                           

                                          What Nvidia driver version are you using for the 570GTX?

                                           

                                          Eric

                                          ADK

                                           

                                          Remind me where I find that in Windows.  It's been a while since I looked.

                                          • 18. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                            Right Click on your Desktop and select Nvidia Control Panel. Select Help and then System Information.

                                             

                                            Eric

                                            ADK

                                            • 19. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                              cc_merchant Level 4

                                              Right click anywhere on the screen, select NVIDIA Control panel and then:

                                               

                                              nVidia driver.png

                                              • 20. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                                ExactImage Level 3

                                                311.06 - it's stable I didn't upgrade further.  Are there any updates that actually increase speed significantly without sacrificing stability?    Since colorista II doesn't use CUDA (it only uses Open GL) I figured the GPU probably wasn't the limiting factor here.

                                                • 21. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                  Open GL versions are updated with driver updates as is the CUDA version. Colorista should not be shutting down the hardware MPE which it seems to be. Please update to this driver and restart. When you install the driver select the custom option and then check mark the clean install box on the next page. Restart.

                                                   

                                                  http://www.geforce.com/drivers/results/63458

                                                   

                                                  Try the export again.

                                                   

                                                  Eric

                                                  ADK

                                                  • 22. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                                    ExactImage Level 3

                                                    ECBowen wrote:

                                                     

                                                    Open GL versions are updated with driver updates as is the CUDA version. Colorista should not be shutting down the hardware MPE which it seems to be. Please update to this driver and restart. When you install the driver select the custom option and then check mark the clean install box on the next page. Restart.

                                                     

                                                    http://www.geforce.com/drivers/results/63458

                                                     

                                                    Try the export again.

                                                     

                                                    Eric

                                                    ADK

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Oops!   Updated the drivers and they may not have been a smart move    Old score (old driver) 27:24,  new driver 28:46!!

                                                     

                                                    I also created a new user and tried again (to make sure nothing was getting loaded as a user config) and got identical times.

                                                    • 23. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                                      ExactImage Level 3

                                                      One more bit of info.   The CPU in the windows PC is a, i7 2600K running at 3.4Ghz (I found the box) with a max turbo of 3.8Ghz.  The cpu in the macbook pro is an i7 2860M @ 2.5Ghx max turbo of 3.6Ghz.

                                                       

                                                      Everything about the MBP screams that it "should" be slower.

                                                      • 24. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                                        ExactImage Level 3

                                                        Well, a clean install of win7 doesn't seem to have made much difference either.     Just can't figure out what the bottleneck is here.....

                                                        • 25. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                                          ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                          Talk to Red Giant and see if they have any updates or Beta's to test.

                                                           

                                                          Eric

                                                          ADK

                                                          • 26. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                                            Kranex1

                                                            Nothing in your laptop's hardware would account for the dramatic difference you describe. The only logical conclution is something is dramtical wroong with the configuration of the other two of your machines. Either something isn't working, or something is workinng properly.

                                                             

                                                            Incidentally, the difference should primarily be due to your graphics cards. Look to it for the difference during GPU rendering. Amount of video RAM and/or CUDA cores

                                                            • 27. Re: Confused.  Why is this?
                                                              ExactImage Level 3

                                                              Thanks for the reply.

                                                               

                                                              I've done a ton of testing on this trying to figure out whatis causing it.   I've even been the lengths of finding another editor with near identical hardare (he actually had dual GPU) running all from SSD etc.  Guess what?  He still gets just over 27 mins render time from this sequence.  He was equally blown away when I sat the MBP next to his beloved PC.

                                                               

                                                              BTW - he is on a clean install windows 8, 16GB ram, same CPU, same MOBO and latest GPU drivers.  Everything up to date.

                                                               

                                                              I've also tried a different MOBO and different GPU.  Broadly similar results (27-28 mins).

                                                               

                                                              I installed tools to track the CPU and GPU usage more closely.  With the GPU disabled there was 0% GPU usage.  With the GPU enabled there was around 12% GPU usage on this render.  Remember, Colourista II does NOT use CUDA, so having done all it's own processing using CUDA, Premiere Pro passes each frame off to Colourista II which does what it does and then passes it back. 

                                                               

                                                              On the MBP there is 0% GPU usage regardless of whether it's enabled or not.

                                                               

                                                              The MacPro shows similar usage to the Windows machine.  Around 10%-12% GPU usagle while rendering.

                                                               

                                                              I'm still stumped on this one.  If I'd never seen the MBP render this timeline I would have just assumed that 27 mins was normal with the faster MacPro rendering being down to 8 real cores instead of 4+4 in the i7.   And that's fine.  I would have been happy.  But the speed of the MBP on this sequence (it is slower and some other stuff) is what has me baffled.