21 Replies Latest reply on Jul 25, 2013 7:59 PM by shooternz

    Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly

    studio42sound Level 1

      Half an hour of frustrated internet and message board searching have brought me no closer to a solution.  I'd be grateful for someone's help. I can't be the first person to have encountered this problem, but no one else seems to be talking about it.

       

      I have HD footage that was shot at 23.976.  I've edited it in a 23.976 timeline, and when I export to Quicktime in its native codec (which is Cineform) or any other codec, at 23.976, I get a 23.976 file.  No problem.

       

      But when I try to export DV/NTSC 24p, it SAYS it's going to export at 23.976, but then when I open up the resulting file, it's at 29.97 and there are extra interpolated frames added.  Same thing happens if I try to convert it after the fact with AME from a 23.976 HD export.

       

      It's driving me apeshit.  I need a true 24p DV-NTSC quicktime for the sound mix, and I'm at a total loss for how to create one, short of switching (back) to FCP.

       

      So what gives?

       

      Details:

      I'm on an iMac 21" running Premiere and AME CS6, thought I've tried it also in CC and get the same result.

        • 1. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          I need a true 24p DV-NTSC quicktime for the sound mix

           

          You can't get that out of PP using the DV codec, as the DV specification allows only one frame rate - 29.97.  In order to be a "DV file", PP has to add the pulldown.

           

          You can't use the Cineform export for the job?

          • 2. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
            studio42sound Level 1

            I know I've made 24p DV quicktimes before.  I'm a professional sound mixer, and we use them all the time.  You can create them in Final Cut and Compressor.  It kinda sucks that you can't do it in Adobe.

             

            I can get by for the moment with what I have, but I'd like to find a proper workaround for this, if anyone has a suggestion, short of buying Compressor or FCP.  Pro Tools can't play anything other than DV out the firewire port to the projector.

            • 3. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
              Jim_Simon Level 8

              I know I've made 24p DV quicktimes before.

               

              You can make them now, but they will include the pulldown as the DV spec requires.  Any program that doesn't add that is creating out of spec files.

              • 4. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                joe bloe premiere Level 5

                I know I've made 24p DV quicktimes before.

                If by "DV" you mean export QT files at 720x480 24p, that can be done.

                Simply use a codec other than DV (in this case H.264):

                QT.PNG

                .

                As Jim points out, NTSC DV codec is locked to 29.97fps (as it should be).

                NTSC DV is by definition 29.97i.

                .

                • 5. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                  studio42sound Level 1

                  I don't mean H264 or any other codec. I mean DV.  I know it exists.  I have dozens of them on my drive right now.  Like the one below.

                   

                   

                   

                  Screen Shot 2013-07-25 at 2.22.39 PM.pngScreen Shot 2013-07-25 at 2.21.55 PM.png

                  • 6. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                    joe bloe premiere Level 5

                    Do you want to argue about some files you have on your hard drive,

                    or do you want to encode a 720x480 @24p QT file from Premiere?

                    • 7. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                      studio42sound Level 1

                      I don't want to argue about anything.  I'm just telling you that I *need* a DV/DVCPRO 24p file for post sound.  Not H264 or some other codec.  It has to be DV/DVCPRO. I know that it can be done with FCP/Compressor.  I'm just trying to figure out how to get it done with AME or Premiere.

                       

                      I'm not trying to start a flame war, and I'm perfectly capable of making a 720x480 Quicktime in H264 without consulting a message board.  That's not the question I'm asking.

                       

                      AME has an option for creating DVCPRO 23.98 files, but only as P2 files, not as Quicktime.  And you can create DVCPRO 23.98 Quicktime files, but not in SD.  It's frustrating to need this one particular thing, to know that it exists, and to have Premiere just simply not *allow* me to do it.

                      • 8. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                        SFL46 Level 3

                        If you are unwilling to take the input from the other posters, you might search in wikipedia for DV video. In the entry, you will find that there are cameras that will record a varient of DVCPRO that will do progressive and 23.97.  But the entry clearly states that this must be adjusted by pulling down to match the DV standard.  Just what several people here have been telling you.

                        • 9. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                          studio42sound Level 1

                          I'm not trying to be difficult or contrary.  Honestly, I'm not.  And I'm not "unwilling to take the input from the other posters".  But so far none of the other posters have actually answered my question, and one of them got snippy with me when I pointed out why his solution was not valid for my particular problem.

                           

                          People have suggested various reasons why it can't be done, but I know it can be done because I've done it.  And I've posted the evidence.  The Quicktime in the picture above plays fine out of the firewire DV port. It imports properly into Pro Tools at the proper frame rate, while maintaining the proper timecode.  This particular example doesn't have timecode burned into the video, but on ones that do, a pulldown to 29.97 means that I no longer get frame-accurate timecode on the video.  It also means that the sync pops can drift half a frame because they are now in 29.97instead of 23.976.  It means that I can't import the video into a Pro Tools project that already has a 23.98 video in it, since Pro Tools won't let you mix frame rates.  It also means that I can't do my sound editing with frame-accurate video, which is unacceptable.  So this is not a solution to my problem.

                           

                          Others have suggested that I just use a different codec.  That's not a solution to my problem either, since I need it to be DV/DVCPRO.  I didn't invent Pro Tools and I have no control over what formats it will accept for firewire output.  So that's also not a solution to the problem.

                           

                          To everyone who has answered so far, thank you for your input.  I appreciate it.  I'd be really grateful if anyone could chime in with an  answer to my original question: How do I create a standard definition DVCPRO 24p Quicktime in Adobe?  Maybe the answer is that "Adobe doesn't have this functionality".  But that's a different answer than "It can't be done, period."

                          • 10. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                            joe bloe premiere Level 5
                            ...I know it can be done because I've done it.

                            With Premiere?

                            • 11. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                              studio42sound Level 1

                              joe bloe premiere wrote:

                               

                              ...I know it can be done because I've done it.

                              With Premiere?

                              No.  That's what I'm trying to figure out.

                              • 12. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                                joe bloe premiere Level 5

                                Okie dokie...

                                I do not believe it is possible to do what you want

                                with the DV and DVCPRO codecs within Premiere.

                                I know you don't particularly care why, but these are specifically

                                defined codecs based on NTSC specifications (including fields).

                                 

                                If you were on Windows, I might have an idea on how to flip the

                                720x480 24p files exported from Premiere into a (faux) DV codec file.

                                On a mac, I'm not sure.

                                 

                                note:

                                Not a Pro Tools user, but do they have any updates available

                                to enable additional codec support?

                                H.264 is pretty widely accepted.

                                • 13. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                                  shooternz Level 6

                                  I dont know the solution for you but will chime in and say I give my audio guys (Protools) H264 (mp4) all the time.  No problem.

                                   

                                  Are you sure that Protools is as limiting as you say?

                                  • 14. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                                    joe bloe premiere Level 5

                                    I give my audio guys (Protools) H264 (mp4) all the time.  No problem.

                                    Thanks for that confirmation.

                                     

                                    • 15. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                                      studio42sound Level 1

                                      shooternz wrote:

                                       

                                      I dont know the solution for you but will chime in and say I give my audio guys (Protools) H264 (mp4) all the time.  No problem.

                                       

                                      Are you sure that Protools is as limiting as you say?

                                      You can play H264 in a window on your computer screen just fine (which is what I'm doing right now).  But if you want to send it out to a firewire device that hooks up to a projector, it needs to be DV.  At least in Pro Tools 10.  It's also possible that your audio guys are transcoding the H264 after you send it to them.  I often do that, since H264 files are much smaller than DV and can therefore be uploaded/downloaded faster.  Or they could be using different hardware that allows them to send out an H264.  But to go out the firewire port, it has to be DV, and that's how most professional mix stages are set up.  That much I'm 100% positive of.

                                      • 16. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                                        studio42sound Level 1

                                        joe bloe premiere wrote:

                                         

                                        Okie dokie...

                                        I do not believe it is possible to do what you want

                                        with the DV and DVCPRO codecs within Premiere.

                                        I know you don't particularly care why, but these are specifically

                                        defined codecs based on NTSC specifications (including fields).

                                         

                                        If you were on Windows, I might have an idea on how to flip the

                                        720x480 24p files exported from Premiere into a (faux) DV codec file.

                                        On a mac, I'm not sure.

                                         

                                        note:

                                        Not a Pro Tools user, but do they have any updates available

                                        to enable additional codec support?

                                        H.264 is pretty widely accepted.

                                        Okay.  Thank you.  I wonder why Final Cut can do this but Premiere can't?  That's more than a little frustrating, but oh well...

                                        • 17. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                                          joe bloe premiere Level 5

                                          I wonder why Final Cut can do this but Premiere can't?

                                          I would look back to post #3 where Jim sez:

                                          "...they will include the pulldown as the DV spec requires.

                                          Any program that doesn't add that is creating out of spec files."

                                           

                                          Is it only seeing the fields that bothers you?

                                          Are you viewing the output on an interlaced monitor?

                                          • 18. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                                            Jim_Simon Level 8

                                            none of the other posters have actually answered my question

                                             

                                            I actually answered it in the first post.  You can't create a DV file at 23.976 out of Premiere Pro, per se, as that is not a valid DV file.  DV is only 29.97i  That's it.  That's the only kind of DV file that PP will create.  So your 23.976 media will get pulldown added in order to make a "DV legal" file.

                                            • 19. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                                              shooternz Level 6

                                              The definitely dont transcode in this instance but they are also not using a projector either on the work I am taking to them.

                                               

                                              They are a certified Dolby high-end Suite etc.....and have projectors as well as monitors.

                                               

                                              I called them and you are correct..only 24 will play out of the Protools timeline..but they have some device that allows a bypass for other speeds.   He thought it swas maybe an on the fly background transcode. (AMA?)

                                               

                                               

                                              Do you view via projector in SD only?

                                               

                                              BTW - a workaround.  Use Quicktime Pro . It allows A DV at 24 fps.

                                              • 20. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                                                studio42sound Level 1

                                                shooternz wrote:

                                                 

                                                Do you view via projector in SD only?

                                                 

                                                BTW - a workaround.  Use Quicktime Pro . It allows A DV at 24 fps.

                                                We're capable of projecting in HD, but it wastes a lot of processing power unnecessarily, which limits how many tracks and effects we can use on the audio.

                                                 

                                                But Quicktime Pro is the solution I was looking for.  So much so that I fell kinda dumb for not having thought of it myself.  I still think it's dumb that Adobe doesn't have this functionality, but something tells me that's not going to change anytime soon, so as long as I have a workaround that actually works, I'll be okay.

                                                • 21. Re: Premiere (and AME) will not export 23.98 DV NTSC properly
                                                  shooternz Level 6

                                                  But Quicktime Pro is the solution I was looking for.  So much so that I fell kinda dumb for not having thought of it myself. 

                                                   

                                                  Glad I could enlighten you in your hour of need.