1 2 Previous Next 47 Replies Latest reply: Aug 5, 2013 9:46 PM by PierreLouisBeranek RSS

    Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands

    PierreLouisBeranek Community Member

      I love the new 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands in PP CC!  But when I nudge selected video clips up/down, I would prefer if any associated audio clips remained put.  I know I can Alt-select the video clips so that their associated audio clips don't get selected, but I still think these 2 new commands would work better this way:

       

      1. Select clips

      2. Use 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' command while the:

      1. Cursor is over any video track = only the selected video clips get nudged

      2. Cursor is over any audio track = only the selected audio clips get nudged

       

      I can't think of any situation where I would want to nudge both the video and audio clips at the same time, but for those rare occasions, it would simply be a matter of nudging twice, once with the cursor over a video track and once over an audio track.

       

      Before I submit an official FR for this, I would love to hear from others on this forum.  Do you agree?  Disagree? Any ideas on further possible improvements?

       

      Thanks!

        • 1. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
          JSS1138 Community Member

          You can that cursor.  Why force folks to move that?  It's one more step we don't have to do now that you want everyone to have to do.

           

          I think the better improvement when both are selected is to move video and audio relatively rather than absolutely.  Meaning 'up' for video should be V2, and 'up' for audio should also be A2, even though it's actually down in the track listing.

           

          For moving one, the current method of selecting one works fine.

          • 2. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
            PierreLouisBeranek Community Member

            But one could also argue that having to remember to Alt-select the clips is also an extra step Jim.

             

            100% of the time when a user selects video clips to nudge up or down, the cursor will already be over the video tracks portion of the Timeline, so there's no need to take any extra steps.  In the rare case that a user selects video clips, but wants to nudge their associated audio clips rather than the video clips themselves, then yes, there would be an added step of moving the cursor over the audio portion of the Timeline.  But that step is so easy to do and would be so rare, it's negligable vs the benefit of my proposed method, don't you think?

             

            I don't want users to have to do 1 more step as you imply, I want users to have 1 less step 99% of the time (i.e. no need to Alt-select clips, or undo mistakes when forgetting to Alt-select clips with audio, just select clips and nudge away worry free!)

             

            Anyone else have any thoughts to share?

            • 3. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
              JSS1138 Community Member

              But one could also argue that having to remember to Alt-select the clips is also an extra step Jim.

               

              Not really.  I'd consider both Select and Alt-Select as one step.

               

              100% of the time when a user selects video clips to nudge up or down, the cursor will already be over the video tracks portion of the Timeline

               

              Define curser.  Do you mean the mouse cursor, or the Current Time Indicator?  If the former, it may not be when selecting with the keyboard.  If the latter, it may not be when selecting with the mouse.  So either way, you're calling for people to move something they don't currently have to move to make this work.

               

              I'd further argue that most of the time I need to move a clip, it's to move both video and audio to a 'higher numbered track' (not just 'up') so that the clip can be slid over.  It's very rare I need to move only video or audio.

              • 4. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                PierreLouisBeranek Community Member

                It's interesting that different users can have such different workflows.  You wrote that you very rarely want to move just video or audio up/down tracks.  In my case it's the opposite.  When moving video clips up/down tracks, 99% of the time I only ever want to move the video portion, not the audio portion.

                 

                By cursor I mean just that, cursor (i.e. mouse pointer), and not the CTI.

                 

                In all fairness, how often are people going to select clips using the keyboard, while their cursor is over an audio track, and then want to nudge the selected video clips up/down?  I think this would be a rare situation.

                 

                I think the best solution in this case is to give the user a checkbox option in the Preferences window along the lines of: 'Nudge Selected Clips Up/Down' shortcuts nudge both video and audio.'  If checked on, it would keep working the way it currently does.  If checked off, it would work the way I suggest, of only nudging the audio portion if the cursor is placed over the audio tracks.

                • 5. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                  JSS1138 Community Member

                  99% of the time I only ever want to move the video portion, not the audio portion.

                   

                  I'm curious why?  What are you doing that needs to move only one?

                   

                   

                  In all fairness, how often are people going to select clips using the keyboard, while their cursor is over an audio track

                   

                  The mouse cursor may simply have been left there arbitrarily, you never know.  Besides, mouse cursor as 'modifier' is just not the best idea for clips.  The CTI I can see, but not the mouse.

                   

                   

                   

                  I think the best solution

                   

                   

                  I still think the best solution is the one we have now.  Move only video, select only video.  (You're selecting anyway, right?)  This solution requires no effort on Adobe's part, freeing them up for other features.  It only requires you to get used to the 'selection' method that has been part of PP for a loooong time now.

                   

                  What might be a good idea is adding keyboard shortcuts for selecting only video or only audio under the CTI, with modifiers to the D shortcut perhaps.

                  • 6. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                    PierreLouisBeranek Community Member

                    Jim Simon wrote:

                     

                    99% of the time I only ever want to move the video portion, not the audio portion.

                     

                    I'm curious why?  What are you doing that needs to move only one?

                    'Cleaning' the Timeline to put all final video clips on a single video track for the sake of visual order.  This requires only video clips to move 100% of the time.

                     

                    I've submitted my official FR and posted it in this thread: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1267544.

                    It's hard for me to imagine that anyone likes the way the shortcuts currently work, especially given that clips don't move in unison. i.e. nudge video up a track from V1 to V2 with audio on A1 does not work since PP wants to move the audio from A1 to A0 which doesn't exist, rather than in unison with the video, from A1 to A2.  This doesn't make any sense!

                     

                    I know that selecting just the video clips works, as you suggest, but if 99% of the time I only want the video to nudge, should I really have to worry about whether or not audio clips are already selected?  I'm sure others are in the same boat as I am.  The best option is for us to have a choice on how these shortcuts work, which I've presented as clearly as I can in my official FR.

                    • 7. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                      SFL46 Community Member

                      I guess I am puzzled also.  Why would you want a feature that would allow you to nudge a video track left or right out of synchronization with its audio track?

                      • 8. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                        shooternz Community Member

                        I think 'Nudge' as in Nudge Up and Down was a poor choice of terms.

                         

                        A nudge is a small movement in a direction.

                         

                        We have Nudge Left and Right already (and I use it a lot for VID / Aud or each alone)

                         

                        Raise /Lower or Raise/Drop may have been better more descriptive choices.

                        • 9. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                          JSS1138 Community Member

                          'Cleaning' the Timeline to put all final video clips on a single video track for the sake of visual order.

                           

                          I sort of see that.  I guess I'm just neater as I go along that I don't have to do it.

                           

                          What I can see as maybe the better feature request is the ability to collapse the video tracks.  I can see this working in two ways.  Collapse All would bring all clips to V1, leaving edit points in tact and cutting off any overlaps.  I've seen editors ask for this, especially when they need to go out to a Colorist.  The second method would be Collapse Down, which would bring all video clips down to the lowest track they can occupy without cutting anything off any other clips.

                           

                          Of course, since audio tracks can have effects at the track level, the Collapse feature would leave audio untouched.

                           

                          So you could do your clean up in one stroke.

                          • 10. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                            JSS1138 Community Member
                            I think 'Nudge' as in Nudge Up and Down was a poor choice of terms.

                             

                            A nudge is a small movement in a direction.

                             

                            Agreed.

                            • 11. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                              PierreLouisBeranek Community Member

                              I also agree that 'nudge' is a ridiculously bad term to use for moving clips up/down tracks.  How such bad decisions get made time and time again and get past quality control at Adobe, I'll never know.  It isn't a big deal, but it certainly is confusing.

                               

                              To answer your question Jim, 'nudging' a clip up or down would never throw it out of sync with its audio.  That's impossible.

                              • 12. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                JaysonM-Y Community Member

                                FCP fanboy here. That was a feature I requested back in CS4 cause I got used to in in FCP6.

                                 

                                Also, they're not bad decisions Pierre... it takes a while to see what works really and a handful of testers will never encounter the intricacies and problems that the final release users will. Implement > Feedback > Fix/or not > Feedback > repeat is the only thing they can do really.

                                 

                                PS: IIRC nudging was also the FCP term.

                                • 13. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                  PierreLouisBeranek Community Member

                                  Hi JaysonM-Y,

                                   

                                  I would have to disagree.  A bad decision is a bad decision.  When drag/dropping a clip in the Timeline, the Video and Audio portion move together in unison.  Moving the video from V1 to V2 = audio moving from A1 to A2.  It's always been this way.  So why should Adobe suddenly break this convention with the nudge up/down shortcuts by making video and audio move opposite to each other?  It's illogical.  I doesn't make sense.  And yes, it IS a very bad decision on their part.  It doesn't take a genius, nor a whole group of people to figure that our.  Heck, I figured it out within 10 seconds of seeing how these new shortcuts work!

                                   

                                  So if I was able to see the undeniable workflow problem here in less than 10 seconds, why couldn't anyone at Adobe see it?  My best guess would have to be that it's a problem of ego.  Someone at Adobe thought it should work this way, and so that's what we got, whether it makes sense or not... just because he/she said so.  Professional workplaces should not operate this way, but decisions being driven by ego rather than logic is an unfortunate reality of our world.

                                   

                                  With my FRs, I'm just trying to do my part to undo some of the nonsense we get dished out as a result of bad, and very likely ego driven, decisions.

                                  • 15. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                    PierreLouisBeranek Community Member

                                    Nice one joe!  Love Monty Python!

                                    • 17. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                      shooternz Community Member

                                      With my FRs, I'm just trying to do my part to undo some of the nonsense we get dished out as a result of bad, and very likely ego driven, decisions.

                                       

                                      In your humble opinion ...of course.

                                       

                                      Do you have any reason to believe that "editors" are or are not consulted in the Premiere development program?

                                       

                                      Do you believe that user feature requests are considered and ever adopted by Adobe?

                                       

                                      Are your feature requests any more superior to those that the rest of us hopeless idiots post in?

                                      (your feature request are largely to do with something that you want individualised for your self)

                                       

                                      Who or what kind of person would get an ego trip out of developing a feature in the program?  (Maybe thats you?)

                                       

                                      Offer your self as a beta tester and save the world from Adobe.

                                      • 18. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                        joe bloe premiere Community Member

                                        Who or what kind of person would get an ego trip out of developing a feature in the program?

                                        Pharther Phurther

                                        Member Since:

                                        Jan 23, 2011

                                        Last Logged In:

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                                        Brief Bio:

                                        Fool

                                         

                                        http://forums.adobe.com/people/Pharther%20Phurther

                                        • 19. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                          shooternz Community Member

                                          Oh...a trip down memory lane. 

                                          • 20. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                            JSS1138 Community Member
                                            To answer your question Jim, 'nudging' a clip up or down would never throw it out of sync with its audio

                                             

                                            Did I ask that?

                                            • 21. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                              Steven L. Gotz Community Member

                                              This is a very strange thread.

                                               

                                              As far as I can tell without looking at lots of projects, I am much more inclined to move video from one track to another than I am audio.

                                               

                                              Why would audio have to move? The order in which audio sits on the tracks is in no way relevant to how it sounds. Yet where video sits is extremely relevant to how it looks.

                                               

                                              If I want to nudge video up a track or two, or even down, why would I want the audio to move?

                                               

                                              I should, at a minimum, be able to press a modifier key to just move the video.

                                               

                                              Now, the real problem is that the implementation is seriously warped. If the video is on track one and the audio is on track one, nothing will move. Because to Alt-Up the video would make the audio go to track zero which does not exist. So you can't move anything unless it is already on a higher track. That's just wrong. So the feature is completely useless to me and I don't even try to use it.

                                              • 22. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                PierreLouisBeranek Community Member

                                                shooternz wrote:

                                                Are your feature requests any more superior to those that the rest of us hopeless idiots post in?

                                                No, they aren't and I never insinuated that they are either.  'Hopeless idiots'?  I respectfully suggest you ease off the language.

                                                shooternz wrote

                                                (your feature request are largely to do with something that you want individualised for your self)

                                                Wrong.  My feature requests are designed so that they would best address the needs of as many people as possible.  Why do you think I ask others for their input, and follow up by changing my FRs to take other people's concerns into account whenever appropriate?  I'm sure anyone with an open mind can see and appreciate this.  Your accusation reflects your own resistance to my posts, nothing else.

                                                shooternz wrote:

                                                Who or what kind of person would get an ego trip out of developing a feature in the program?  (Maybe thats you?)

                                                Nobody ever even talked about 'ego trips', so what are you trying to get at here?

                                                 

                                                What I stated, and anyone who knows anything about human nature can confirm, is that once a person makes a bad decision, their ego can often hold them back from admitting their mistake and fixing it.  If this wasn't the case, how would you explain 7 years of subclips with hard in/out points, introduced as a 'feature' in PP2.0?  One or more programmers went out of their way to program in a limitation that was a serious hindrance rather than a positive feature.  Many people complained, myself included.  But it took Adobe 7 years to admit the mistake and fix it in CC.  7 years!   If that isn't a case of ego clouding good sense, the proverbial "It's better that way because we said so!", I don't know what is.  I honestly believe that without any ego in the equation, that 'feature' would have been removed far sooner, perhaps even before Premiere 2.0 got released.


                                                George Orwell once said: "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."  I'm just speaking my truth about what I see going on.  That's all.  I only point this out in the hopes that Adobe base their decisions more on objective logic and respect for longstanding workflows rather than what any particular person/people on their team say is the best way to do something... just because they said so.  Some could argue that that's what they already do.  But evidence repeatedly points to the contrary.

                                                • 23. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                  PierreLouisBeranek Community Member

                                                  Sorry Jim, it was in response to SFL46's post, not yours!

                                                  • 24. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                    JSS1138 Community Member
                                                    Why would audio have to move?

                                                     

                                                    For me it's to make room on both V1 and A1 so that I can slide other clips in.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    I should, at a minimum, be able to press a modifier key to just move the video.

                                                     

                                                    You can.  Hit ALT to select only the video and only video moves.  Done.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    you can't move anything unless it is already on a higher track. That's just wrong. So the feature is completely useless to me and I don't even try to use it.

                                                     

                                                    Exactly.  It should not be a Nudge Up feature, but a Move to Higher Track feature, because for audio a 'higher track' is actually down.

                                                    • 25. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                      Steven L. Gotz Community Member

                                                      For me it's to make room on both V1 and A1 so that I can slide other clips in.

                                                      I am not trying to be contrary. Really. I get moving the video. But I would prefer that if I moved video from track V1 to track V3, and I wanted to slide a clip on to track V1, to have the audio just find the first available open track. I label my clips in a way that virtually eliminates the need for the video and audio to be on the same track number. I can see what is where. However, I understand why that would be preferable for others.

                                                       

                                                      So OK.

                                                      You can.  Hit ALT to select only the video and only video moves.  Done.

                                                       

                                                      Sorry, but you just confused me. I have to hold the Alt key down to nudge anything. How does that allow me to just move audio or video? What am I missing?

                                                       

                                                      Exactly.  It should not be a Nudge Up feature, but a Move to Higher Track feature, because for audio a 'higher track' is actually down.

                                                       

                                                      Yes. Absolutely. We agree. A "Move to Higher Track" or "Move to Lower Track" feature.

                                                       

                                                      The way it is looks like someone wasn't paying attention. I mean really, come on Adobe, you are making us FanBoys look bad with badly implemented features like this. How can we defend this?

                                                      • 26. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                        JSS1138 Community Member

                                                        I have to hold the Alt key down to nudge anything.

                                                         

                                                        What I mean is you use the standard modifier for selecting only video or audio that's been part of Premiere since it went Pro, hold down he ALT key when selecting.  Once you have only the part you want selected, do with it as you please.

                                                        • 27. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                          Steven L. Gotz Community Member

                                                          AH! Got it. Makes sense now. Thanks. That is actually quite useful. Thanks.

                                                           

                                                          But I should have an option in Preferences that eliminates that need. I never move audio. It would totally negate my track labeling as seen below:

                                                           

                                                          Capture.PNG

                                                          • 28. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                            JSS1138 Community Member

                                                            You can always just click/drag it with the mouse. I mean, you're clicking anyway to select, right?

                                                            • 29. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                              Steven L. Gotz Community Member

                                                              Well, yes, but then again, I am a basically a mouse guy anyway, but trying to break the habit. People who are keyboard type editors might have a different opinion.

                                                               

                                                              Besides, the point of the nudge for us mouse users is to prevent having to move the CTI to have something to snap to. The nudge goes up and down, not sideways by accident the way a mouse move might.

                                                               

                                                              I would prefer to click on it without the Alt key first, but then again, it would have to be a preference so it wouldn't bother people who prefer it the other way.

                                                              • 30. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                                JaysonM-Y Community Member

                                                                "> This topic has been moved to the Video Lounge"

                                                                 

                                                                That's what the second post after this will say

                                                                • 31. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                                  PierreLouisBeranek Community Member

                                                                  Steven Gotz wrote:

                                                                  I would prefer to click on it without the Alt key first, but then again, it would have to be a preference so it wouldn't bother people who prefer it the other way.

                                                                  Exactly Steven!  That's why I advocate that we given a choice of how things work anytime possible.

                                                                   

                                                                  What do you think of the checkbox toggle I suggested in my official FR for this in another thread (i.e. a checkbox for: 'Nudge Clip Selection Up/Down' shortcuts nudge both video and audio)?

                                                                   

                                                                  If checked, it would work the way it does now, requiring that users Alt-select video clips anytime they don't want to move their audio as well.  If unchecked, it would work the way I'm advocating: mouse pointer over video track = video gets moved, mouse pointer over audio track = audio gets moved.

                                                                   

                                                                  This really should be a user selectable choice since only this way would the preferences of all editor be respected.

                                                                  • 32. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                                    Steven L. Gotz Community Member

                                                                    What do you think of the checkbox toggle I suggested in my official FR for this in another thread

                                                                    Works for me.

                                                                     

                                                                    Your last couple of suggestions seem to have been right on the mark. I don't always agree that your suggestions are more important that others I would rather have them work on, but you are hitting the sweet spot for requests lately (in my opinion, of course). Keep it up.

                                                                    • 33. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                                      JSS1138 Community Member

                                                                      People who are keyboard type editors might have a different opinion.

                                                                       

                                                                      Even they still have to select with the mouse when selecting only video or audio of a linked clip.  The only keyboard shortcut for clip selection will select the entire clip.

                                                                       

                                                                      I would prefer to click on it without the Alt key first

                                                                       

                                                                      How exactly do you propose to make that work?  How do you determine if the whole clip, just the video or just the audio will be selected without using a modifier?

                                                                      • 34. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                                        JSS1138 Community Member

                                                                        If unchecked, it would work the way I'm advocating: mouse pointer over video track = video gets moved, mouse pointer over audio track = audio gets moved.

                                                                         

                                                                        I think mouse pointer as a modifier is just a bad idea.  It's weird.  If you want things changed, it'd be better to create new keyboard shortcuts to move only video or only audio, even if both are selected.

                                                                         

                                                                        Of course, I still think the 'Collapse' feature would be more useful to more editors more often than any other change proposed so far.

                                                                        • 35. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                                          Steven L. Gotz Community Member

                                                                          My proposal is a preference setting that tells Pr not to nudge audio. EVER!

                                                                          • 36. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                                            shooternz Community Member

                                                                            My proposal is anytime a clip is dragged vertically from track to another track...it stays locked in time.

                                                                             

                                                                            My actual reality is..I never ever have an issue dragging a clip and maintaining its position and time on the next track.  I will never need to do this so called  'nudge" with a shortcut method or by use of keyboard alone.

                                                                             

                                                                            Moving Audio and Video separately is so easy as well in these instances.

                                                                            • 37. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                                              Steven L. Gotz Community Member

                                                                              Well, to be honest, I have never used the nudge anyway since it doesn't work the way I want it to. And since I have always used the CTI to keep my clips snapped in time, I continue to do so without giving it a second thought.

                                                                               

                                                                              It just seems to me that it ought to work right if they are going to do it at all. And moving the video up while the audio goes down is just not logical. I can live without the feature.

                                                                              • 38. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                                                JSS1138 Community Member

                                                                                My proposal is a preference setting that tells Pr not to nudge audio. EVER!

                                                                                 

                                                                                So you'd have to change the preference if you ever wanted to move audio with the shortcut?

                                                                                 

                                                                                Seems like a bad idea to me.  An interface button would be better.  (Oh wait, we have that with track locking. )

                                                                                • 39. Re: Improvement to 'Nudge Clip Selection Down/Up' commands
                                                                                  PierreLouisBeranek Community Member

                                                                                  I think Jim has provided the best solution so far: More shortcuts!

                                                                                   

                                                                                  AND... let's rename those shortcuts to something more logical than 'Nudge' while we're at it!

                                                                                   

                                                                                  So here it is:

                                                                                  Current Shortcuts

                                                                                  Shortcut 1: Move Selected clips up a track  (e.g. Shift Page Up)

                                                                                  Shortcut 2: Move Selected clips down a track (e.g. Shift Page Down)

                                                                                   

                                                                                  New Shortcuts

                                                                                  Shortcut 3: Move Selected video clips up a track (e.g. Page Up)

                                                                                  Shortcut 4: Move Selected video clips down a track (e.g. Page Down)

                                                                                  Shortcut 5: Move Selected audio clips up a track (e.g. Alt Page Up)

                                                                                  Shortcut 6: Move Selected audio clips down a track (e.g. Alt Page Down)

                                                                                   

                                                                                  This would give editors all of the options necessary for a smooth, easy, comprehensive workflow (unless I'm missing something in which case please point it out)

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I'm my case, like Steven Gotz, I would only ever want to move video up/down, never audio.  But should I ever need to move audio, I could do so as easily as using the assigned keyboard shortcut, which would be much easier than having to visit the Preferences window as Jim points out.  I liked my idea of using the mouse pointer's position to determine what gets moved, video or audio, but in fact having more shortcuts is a better solution since it would provide a third option of moving both video and audio at the same time that my solution would not.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I think this solution nails it on the head.  Do others agree?  If so, I'll write up a new FR and post it here for others to copy/paste.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Thank you to all who contributed your ideas!

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