6 Replies Latest reply on Aug 2, 2013 8:02 AM by rob day

    InDesign vs Illustrator - Color conversion - Farbumwandlung

    kbiuser Level 1

      English version further down...

       

      Situation:

       

      1. InDesign verwendet standardmäßig die Pantone-bzw. HKS Umrechnungstabelle zu CMYK

       

      2. Illustrator verwendet die Umrechnung über Lab-Farben

       

      3. Die Werte unterscheiden sich drastisch, wenn CMYK als Endprodukt steht

       

      4. Man kann InDesign umstellen, sodass auch InDesign über Lab-Werte geht - die Farbumrechnung ist dann in beiden Programmen identisch

       

      5. Ich habe einen HKS Vollton-Farbfächer sowie einen HKS CMYK-Fächer (basierend auf der CMYK-Tabelle) meiner Druckerei. Gleich benannte Farben beider Fächer sind völlig anders (Bsp Rot siehe unten).

       

      Anmerkung:

       

      - Alle beteiligten Geräte sind farbkalibriert.

       

      - solides Grundwissen zu Farben habe ich, jedoch weniger zu Farbumrechnung, speziell wenn es von Volltonfarben in gerasterten CMYK-Druck geht.

       

      - aktuelle Versionen bei mir: CC

       

      Probleme/Fragen:

       

      A. Die Unterschiede beider Varianten im Druckergebnis sind drastisch. zB. HKS 16 K aus InDesign direkt zu CMYK (per CMYK-Tabelle) ist eine Rot, das stark ins Orange geht CMYK (30,100,90,0), während über Lab-Werte es ein eher kräftiges Rot ist, das schon einen leichten Blaustich aufweist ca. - gerundet - CMYK (10,93,65,33). Die Unterschiede im Druck sind sehr deutlich.Wie kommt es, dass es so stark unterschiedliche Werte sind?

       

      B. Welche Variante kommt dem Ergebnis am nächsten und vor allem warum? Mein Eindruck: Das Druckergebnis per Lab-Farben kommt dem Volltonfarbfächer am nächsten. Die Ergebnisse per Pantone-Definition erscheinen geradezu "abwegig".

       

      C. Was verwende ich ab sofort für zufriedene Kunden?

       

      (D. Neugier: Angenommen der Weg über Lab-Werte ist die beste Lösung,... Warum ist der default in InDesign immer noch die jeweilige CMYK-Tabelle???)

       

      Die eine Technote von Adobe dazu habe ich gelesen. Weiterführende Infos oder Links hierzu wären klasse.

       

      Danke vorab.

      ------------------------------

      situation:

       

      1. InDesign uses by default Pantone- resp.HKS tables to convert to CMYK

      2. Illustrator converts by means of lab-colors

      3. Diferences between 1.and 2. are drastic when used to convert to CMYK

      4. One can configure to use lab-colors in InDesign. As a result CMYK-Colors are idnetical in Illustrator and InDesign

      5. I got a printed HKS spot color palette as well as a CMYK color palette based on standard-tables.Colors with the same name look totally different in both printed palettes (see red further down).

       

      remark:

       

      - all devices are color calibrated

      - I got IMHO a solidknowledge on colors,but not aboutcolor conversions esspecially from spot colors to rastered CMYK colors.

      - using CC version

       

      problems/issues:

      A. Differences in print are totally different e.g. HKS 16 K from InDesign directly to CMYK (by CMYK-table) is a red, drifting strongly towards orange CMYK (30,100,90,0), while by means of the lab-values the same red (HKS16) is strong with a touch to blue app. - rounded - CMYK (10,93,65,33). Differences in print are drastic. How comes the results differ so drastically?

       

      B. Which variant is closer to the intended result? My opinion: using lab color conversion is actually really close to the spot colors. Results by standard table to CMYK look almost "idiotic".

       

      C. What should I use for satisfied customers?

       

      (D. Out of curiosity: Suggested the variant bymeans of lab-colors is best... Why is the conversion by CMYK-tables the default in InDesign???)

       

      Already read a technote from Adobe about it. Asnwers, additional infos and links would be grand.

       

      TIA!!

        • 1. Re: InDesign vs Illustrator - Color conversion - Farbumwandlung
          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Prior to CS6 the Pantone Solid libraries had dual Lab/CMYK definitions. If you had Use Standard Lab Values for Spots checked in Ink Manager a Pantone Solid would be defined as Lab and the color conversion to CMYK would be color managed—the values you get depend on your document's CMYK profile assignment. If you had it unchecked the defintion was predefined CMYK (for one set of printing conditions) and the output values were unchanged by your color management settings.

           

          CS6+ took away the dual definition for Pantone and solid colors are always defined as Lab and CMYK conversions are always color managed. If you don't want a color managed conversion use Pantone + Color Bridge—those libraries are defined as process CMYK (not spot).

           

          The HKS libraries still have dual definitions, so if you don't want them to be color managed uncheck Use Standard Lab Values.

           

          while by means of the lab-values the same red (HKS16) is strong with a touch to blue app. - rounded - CMYK (10,93,65,33). Differences in print are drastic. How comes the results differ so drastically?

           

          The conversion depends on your document's assigned profile. Looks like you are using ISO Coated ECI, but if you change the profile assignment you'll get different numbers. US SWOP returns 24|100|83|19. I think Lab conversions are better assuming the press is  printing close to the assigned profile.

          • 2. Re: InDesign vs Illustrator - Color conversion - Farbumwandlung
            kbiuser Level 1

            Dear Rob,

             

            thank you a lot. I wasnt aware that the colors without lab definition checked arent color manged. Thats a bummer.

             

            This also explains how it went on, since I used "old" Indesign Files (from CS3), with old settings. It also explains why colors of items copied from Illustrator to InDesign were always "correct" since those were color managed by default on new files.

            ---

             

            On the profile you assumed right: its ECI ISO Coated v2 300%.

             

            With that in mind, it suddenly looks correct magic...

             

            ---

             

            Thank you again.

             

            Martin

            • 3. Re: InDesign vs Illustrator - Color conversion - Farbumwandlung
              kbiuser Level 1

              PS: Comparing my printing service company CMYK-palette with spot color palettes it turns out that they didnt have their spot to CMYK color-managed either. Myassumption the partner is right is now an apparent mistake by me

              • 4. Re: InDesign vs Illustrator - Color conversion - Farbumwandlung
                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                I wasnt aware that the colors without lab definition checked arent color manged. Thats a bummer.

                To correctly color manage a solid ink color the starting definition has to be Lab—a CMYK defintion would be arbitrary since there's no CMYK component in a solid ink. An obvious case would be Pantone Purple which can't be printed or previewed with any CMYK definition

                 

                Pantone Purple as Lab and CMYK:

                 

                Screen Shot 2013-08-02 at 9.46.20 AM.png

                • 5. Re: InDesign vs Illustrator - Color conversion - Farbumwandlung
                  kbiuser Level 1

                  Yep tested and understood. So eg Pantone Purple can only be done by using a solid color?!?

                  • 6. Re: InDesign vs Illustrator - Color conversion - Farbumwandlung
                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Right, it's out of the CMYK gamut. Even though it seems to be common practice it's not a great idea to use a solid ink system as a guide to picking process colors—there are a number of other out-of-gamut Pantone  colors