26 Replies Latest reply: Aug 18, 2013 5:51 PM by sandeecohen RSS

    Hyphenation in German

    luca del carlo Community Member

      I'm underwhelmed at ID's automatic hyphenation choices in German, which though configured to what I believe should work best for the book I'm currently laying out, still appears to make odd choices which seem unsightly even if grammatically acceptable. CS3 I understand had poor hyphenation in German, but this is a newer version, using German 2006 reform rules. What else can be done? Do other native speaking professionals recognise this issue?

       

      Thank you for any assistance,

      Luca

        • 1. Re: Hyphenation in German
          Doc Maik Community Member

          As I see you haven't tried asking german people in the german forum.

           

          What else can be done to make the hyphenation better? Nothing. Correct it the dictionary and step by step it will become better.

          • 2. Re: Hyphenation in German
            Willi Adelberger MVP

            There exists a 3rd party plugin from Duden which offers better hyphenation, better spell check and adds also Austrian German Dictionaries to InDesign.

            But take care German before Reform, German 1996 and German 2006, Swiss German PreReform, Swiss German 1996, Swiss German 2006, Austrian 1980, Austrian 1996 and Austrian 2006 are technically spoken different languages. (But Austrian German 2006 and Germany German 2006 are very close and virtually the same and if you need German-Italy or Hungrian-German or Liechtenstein's German use Austrian type, Belgium-German use Germany-German.)

            • 3. Re: Hyphenation in German
              luca del carlo Community Member

              Thank you, the plug in from Duden sounds to be the perfect solution.

               

              I've just sent the text to the final proofreader minutes before receiving your reply, after working on the book for months. In your experience, how well does the plug in work - is the difference significant?

               

              It's my understanding that the 2006 Reform is the latest reform (Germany German), and have used this throughout.

               

              (Update) I've now checked for the Duden-Recht-schreibprüfung für InDesign and find it runs for the princely sum of 260 euros - quite an investment to obtain acceptable hyphenation. How InDesign fails to provide solid hyphenation, a basic neccessity, is baffling, and a costly shortcoming indeed.

              • 4. Re: Hyphenation in German
                Willi Adelberger MVP

                DUDEN is the most respected source for German grammar and spelling for the German speaking community.

                The plugin adds a Duden paragraph composer, adds to paragraph styles a new section and offers several spelling styles like conservative, progressive, most common, press recommended and others.

                When checking spelling you will get offered several solutions depending on the style you have choosen.

                The plugin is available up to CS6 but the will come out with a version for CC. I think they will have incorporated the changes from this year (but main reforms are still 2006, 1996 and 1904). The plugin checks also grammar and commatas (which are very complicated in German).

                • 5. Re: Hyphenation in German
                  luca del carlo Community Member

                  Despite the additional valuable features of the plug-in, I suppose the issue I'm highlighting is that it's a hefty price to pay to address the fundamental problem of dangerously poor hypenation – really a surprising shortcoming on Adobe's behalf. Such clumsiness wouldn't be tolerated in English, so why are other languages given second class standing? For example, "Welterfahrung" looks absurd hyphenated as "Wel-terfahrung". I'm curious whetherhis is the case with other major languages. There must be another acceptable workaround to found in the German forum, so over to there next.

                  • 6. Re: Hyphenation in German
                    Willi Adelberger MVP

                    I agree that German spelling and hyphenation is much far worse in Adobe's software than in English despite the fact that the same software costs in the German market twice of the US price. This makes a lot of users mad on Adobe but also on most others software companies too. I can remember that Quark Passport costed at its best time 6 to 8 time so much as the US version but with the German OS only Passport would run and Quark had a far worse German spelling than InDesign ever had. So this is an issue but not only with Adobe. Not only with InDesign. Also Acrobat is supporting German very poor to a higher price. When you want to read out loud  on Mac OS X 10.8 in German it either crashes or tells you that the OS does not support German reading and no voice is available (it is not true). Also a lot of manuals have never been translated from Adobe to German, when you go to the help file link you will only find coming soon. (But this could cause a problem, because the laws here are so that you have deliver a German manual to any product sold in Germany.)

                     

                    So, I want to try to help with the problem:

                    Welterfahrung, if I want to have correct hyphenation I would add the hyphenation in the user dictionary, Wel-terfahrung is not good and I would never hyphenate it that way. To avoid any bad hyphenation I would do following steps:

                    • Caps and no caps have to be remembered, because substantives, names and personal pronomes in polite styles and verbs with an article or "am" or "zum" preceding have to be capitalized (besides some other complicated rules).
                    • Then I woul write the word with hyphenation like "Welt~er~~fah~~~rung". One tilde will give you prefered hyphenation, 2 less preferred but allowed, 3 not preferred but still allowed.

                    So would InDesign take the preferred hyphenation.

                     

                    I agree that Duden is not cheap but if someone has to typeset a lot of German it might be worthy to invest some money here. But to be honest, the plugin adds a lot of linguist functionality to InDesign too. Like paragraph styles where you can define that it is allowed to start the sentence with non-capital leters (like the opening of a letter in German or a bullet list) and also not only a spell and gramatical correction, it describes the rules and takes also care where a footnote reference should be in relation to punctation.

                    • 7. Re: Hyphenation in German
                      luca del carlo Community Member

                      Thank you for your input, indeed. How does one add the preferred hyphnation to the Adobe DE dictionary? I do not do a significant amount of work in DE per se, however, the projects individually are of great value and probably will necessitate the purchase of the DUDEN plug-in.

                       

                      Kind regards,

                      Luca

                      • 8. Re: Hyphenation in German
                        Willi Adelberger MVP

                        luca del carlo wrote:

                         

                        Thank you for your input, indeed. How does one add the preferred hyphnation to the Adobe DE dictionary? I do not do a significant amount of work in DE per se, however, the projects individually are of great value and probably will necessitate the purchase of the DUDEN plug-in.

                         

                        Kind regards,

                        Luca

                        As you do in any other language. When you Paragraph Style is set correct and you do spell checking and you say add a word you can put in the word as above described into the dictionary of the language of the paragraph but you can also choose all language, which can make sense for proper names.

                         

                        Additional to above mentioned method to add words with hyphenation: You can set a tilde befor the entry that will not allow the word to be hyphenated.

                        • 9. Re: Hyphenation in German
                          luca del carlo Community Member

                          And from a different approach, when not using styles, and merely coming accross a word, for example "Raumerfahrung" which is hyphenating incorrectly as "Rau~~mer~~fah~~rung", I:

                           

                          1. select the word

                          2. right click and choose spelling,

                          3. select User Dictionary

                           

                          ....and from there?

                           

                          How to substitute the correct hyphenation (which is Raum~~er~~fah~~rung)?

                          Step-by-step please.

                          • 10. Re: Hyphenation in German
                            Willi Adelberger MVP
                            1. You have to use style anyway. But it works the same, if you work without styles and define the word with the correct language.
                            2. Correct hyphenatin would be Raum~er~~fah~~~rung here. Because Raum and Erfahrung are 2 words which are alsways the first place for hyphenation, er = Vorsilbe, so ~~, and ung is a Nachsilbe, but cannot stand allone without a consonant, so it becomes ~~~rung. (Adobes Hyphenation tries the same with ung to rung with er to mer, but here it is wrong.)
                            • 11. Re: Hyphenation in German
                              luca del carlo Community Member

                              Sorry, but do you mean it's impossible to add the word via the method I'm suggesting, without using styles? The first 3 consectutive steps of the approach I'm taking were listed here, hoping that would cue the next ones from any help given here. The concept of what to do is clear, but not so the specific, short, one-by-one steps, so best to handle as though steering a newbie. I'm not using styles here for reasons I'd prefer not to go into now, but hopefully, styles won't be absolutely necessary.

                               

                              I do understand German hyphenation, hence why I catch the errors. It's Adobe which lacks an advanced understanding – or even a basic one – of how this works in the German language.

                               

                              Kind thanks.

                              • 12. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                Willi Adelberger MVP

                                I will say that the word has to have the correct language. But there is no reason to work without styles. Working without styles makes never sense, only a bunch more of work. Of course you have to build up the styles in a logical and proper way so that working with styles will make sense too.

                                • 13. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                  luca del carlo Community Member

                                  But why assume I'm working in something other than Adobe's settings for German 2006? The language settings are correct.

                                  • 14. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                    Willi Adelberger MVP

                                    What advantage do you see working without styles?

                                    Creating styles does not cost any additional work, but will reduce the ammount of possible problems in InDesign. There is NEVER a reason to work without style in InDesign. NEVER. I repeat NEVER!!!!!!!!

                                     

                                    When you build up a system of styles you can use it in future with small, very small adjustments to adjust whole libraries. Any change in a document made without styles will cause problems.

                                     

                                    Styles are not only useful when working with different languages, they are very important for all text and form related issues.

                                    • 15. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                      luca del carlo Community Member

                                      There is no advantage to working without styles. Just accept that this is a dysfunction right now that cannot be addressed please.

                                      • 16. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                        Willi Adelberger MVP

                                        Sorry, I am tired to discuss basics with you. You should start to learn InDesign first before you make your claims about the program. Styles are important and someone who is working without styles should use a basic text editor or even write with a pen on paper but not use high professionell software like InDesign or Quark Xpress.

                                        • 17. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                          luca del carlo Community Member

                                          There is no advantage to working without styles. Just accept that this is a dysfunction right now that cannot be addressed please. I am repeating after you, there is "NEVER" a reason to work without.....

                                           

                                          I use styles, though I do not take full advantage of them, and I really don't have the energy to go into detail on this now. Are you insisting that my question concering implementing correct hyphenation cannot be addressed now without a lengthy referrandum on the use of styles? I mean, please don't get hung up on that word or that issue, as it will still be necessary to address what's going awry in the basic steps of adding a new hyphenation into the user dictionary, which past advice has lacked sufficient detail to overcome whatever little oversight/hump is there.

                                          • 18. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                            luca del carlo Community Member

                                            And I am aware that styles are fundamental and essential to the programme we use. Disfunctional behaviour is not necessarily condoned by addressing another matter, a matter which is unrelated to styles. Please look in another direction, as this is not to do with styles, it seems.

                                             

                                            I appreciate the assistance. Styles will be covered when necessary at another time. This is not at the crux of the matter now, I believe. Unless you are missing my intention, or I yours, utterly.

                                            • 19. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                              Willi Adelberger MVP

                                              The hyphenation is as it is. You can write Adobe a bug report. But to handle the problem in an easy way needs to use styles and user ditionary. Manually changing anything without styles doubles amount of work.

                                              • 20. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                                sandeecohen ACP/MVPs

                                                I know I'm way late to this conversation, but there has been an insistence that the only way to do this is with styles. Not true.  Here is a step-by-step in laborious detail of how to create the proper hyphenation for any language word.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Here is some text with the word "Berliner" hyphenated. I'm going to pretend I know German and I know this is not the preferred way to hyphenate the word. (Remember, we're pretending. I have no idea if what I'm doing is correct linguistically.)

                                                 

                                                 

                                                bad berliner.png

                                                 

                                                 

                                                I don't want the word hyphenated after the "Ber." I want it hyphenated after the "li."

                                                 

                                                 

                                                So, I go to Edit > Spelling > User Dictionary.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                User Dictionary.png

                                                 

                                                This opens the User Dictionary dialog box.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                User Dictionary db.png

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Now I want to edit the User Dictionary. There is a choice, at the top of the dialog box, to choose User Dictionary or the name of the document.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                where to save hyphenation.png

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Don't choose the document, unless you're working on a document with some bizarre hyphenation that only Otto von Bismarck would use.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Next, you want to choose what language this word will be hyphenated for.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Choosing German.png

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Use the language menu in the dialog box. I've chosen German Reform 2006 because I have no idea what the others would be used for and I want to be modern.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Next, I type in "Berliner," the word that needs custom hyphenation.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                typing in Berliner.png

                                                 

                                                 

                                                It comes in with no hyphenation. But I click the Hyphenate button.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Click hyhenation.png

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Notice the two tildes (~~) are inserted in the word. That's the default hyphenation for that word. But I want something different. So I click between the "li" and the "ner" and type in one tilde (~).

                                                 

                                                 

                                                New hyphenation.png

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Now, here are the rules.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                If there is one tilde (~), that is the most preferred hyphenation and InDesign will always try to do it.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                If there are two tildes (~~), InDesign will try for that if there is no way to do one tilde (~).

                                                 

                                                 

                                                If there are three tildes (~~~), InDesign will try for that if there is no way to do the other two choices.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                I click the Add button. This adds the word to the User Dictionary for that language.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                New hyphenation.png

                                                 

                                                 

                                                The word shows up in the list. If you have lots of words, they will be listed.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Click the Done button.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Berliner as English.png

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Back in the document, Berliner is still hyphenated incorrectly. That's because the language for that word is still English.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                So I select the word.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Now, here's where I could apply a character style that has the language set to German. Or a paragraph style with German as the language. But I'm lazy and don't want to use styles. (Even though I'm giving a webinar in November on getting more productive with styles.)

                                                 

                                                So I go to the language menu in the Control panel and choose German Reform 2006 because that's the German I'm using.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Choosing German for word.png

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Now, when I look at the word in the text, it is hyphenated at the one tilde (~) spot. Because that is the preferred hyphenation.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Final hyphenation.png

                                                 

                                                OK? Is that step-by-step enough?

                                                 

                                                BTW, in your example of "Raum~~er~~fah~~rung" you might want to insert one tilde (~) between the "er" and the "fah" if you wanted InDesign to try to hyphenate there and then choose the other places as backups. That would be "Raum~~er~fah~~rung."

                                                • 21. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                                  Willi Adelberger MVP

                                                  Sandee, that is exactly what I wrote before. I wrote that it works without styles. Also the steps you described. But working with correct styles would simplify these steps. With styles set up you get the correct user dictionary and you have applied the correct language. Less steps less possibities to get errors and yes, a more automatic way to do things.

                                                  • 22. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                                    vectorbabe Community Member

                                                    It's not totally true.

                                                     

                                                    If your language is set on a paragraph level, then yes, styles are a time saver.

                                                     

                                                    But if you have an English document, with only a few words inserted into paragraphs, there is no difference between applying the character style or changing the language.

                                                    --

                                                    Sandee Cohen

                                                    Computer Graphics Trainer

                                                    • 23. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                                      Willi Adelberger MVP

                                                      I see it also as time saver with the use of Character Styles, let tell you some example:

                                                      1. I set up a lot of documents which had to be German 1996 or 1904 (because some German states did not accept the Reform 1996), later when 2006 became law, so it was easy to switch all text from the old versions to the moderate Reform of Vienna 2006. (Old Reform was the reform of Prague 1904, new reforms are those of Vienna.) Without a style I had to do a lot of find and replace.

                                                      2. When I set up a book with a lot of foreign words I change during typesetting the color of other languages in the Character Styles. This helps a lot to identify if the words are set up correctly! And this reduces the problem to have accidentally the wrong language selected. It helps also to identify if the preceding and following punctuations are included or not, which can cause a different microtypography.

                                                      3. And yes, it is somehow more to make an error in selecting the correct language in InDesign if you use the pull down menu. It is very easy to select the wrong language, scroll down the long list of language wastes more time than clicking on one predefined entry in the character panel. You did not even see which form of German you have selected in the pull down menu. Up to InDesign CS5.5 you saw in the menu only "Deutsch Recht…", only if you clicked on the menu you saw if you have selcted Deusch Rechtschreibrefom 1996 or Deutsch Rechtschreibreform 2006 or worse Deutsch Schweiz Alte Rechtschreibung, Deutsch Schweiz Rechtschreibreform 1996, Deutsch Schweiz Rechtschreibreform 2006 (you saw only "Deutsch Schweiz…") With CS6 Adobe has renamed the entry to Deutsch 1996 Rechtschreibreform, and so on. So it is from an ergonomic standpoint much easier to work with character styles.

                                                      4. Another problem is in combination with different languages you might need a different font which will support that language, so you might not only change the language but also the font, with a character style it is an one click action.

                                                       

                                                      With the use of languages on a paragraph level you need not only to change the language, you will have to change the tracking and increase hyphenation. (German uses normally more space than other languages, if text is typeset in several languages there is often the need to use the same amount of space for each language). In English you might avoid to hyphenate capitalized words because only names, headlines and first words of a sentence are capitalized, in German every substantive and every substantiated verb is capitalized. German has also a tradition of long word combinations which makes it very difficult to avoid hyphenation.So you will need to change the hyphenation rules in combination with the change of language. So I see the only way to work correctly and with reducing errors to work with styles.

                                                      • 24. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                                        sandeecohen ACP/MVPs

                                                        Will,  There are lots of reasons to use styles. I was just reacting to statements like:

                                                         

                                                        Styles are important and someone who is working without styles should use a basic text editor or even write with a pen on paper but not use high professionell software like InDesign or Quark Xpress.

                                                         

                                                        But to handle the problem in an easy way needs to use styles and user ditionary. Manually changing anything without styles doubles amount of work.

                                                         

                                                        What happened in the thread was the OP was asking, (at times begging) to be shown how to do it without styles. But everyone insisted he had to do it with styles, although no one asked the format of the paragraphs and should it be paragraph or character styles.

                                                         

                                                        And the OP had no interest in changing a font, tracking, selecting the "wrong" language, etc.

                                                         

                                                        So, I just wrote out the answer. And I did mention that styles would make you more productive.

                                                         

                                                        But sometimes it's important to show the most simple steps before add styles, etc.

                                                        • 25. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                                          luca del carlo Community Member

                                                          Kind thanks for the invaluable assisitance. I'd like very much to take part in the November webinar, Sandee, if it's at all possible to join. Please share further details at some point.

                                                           

                                                          Appreciatively,

                                                          Luca

                                                          • 26. Re: Hyphenation in German
                                                            sandeecohen ACP/MVPs

                                                            As soon as I get the details, I'll post it in this thread.