14 Replies Latest reply on Aug 8, 2013 5:59 AM by rob day

    Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded

    scodeller.m Level 1

      If I place a PDF with a ICC profile embedded, InDesign doesn't take in consideration it.

      In the case that the Indd colour workspace is different from the ICC embedded in the PDF, when I export to PDF the color conversion is wrong.

      For example the PDF embedded ICC profile is US webcoated (Swop), the Indd workspace is Iso Coated L39 v2 and I want export to PDF with conversion to PSO lwc improved,

      the conversion that I get is wrong.With an image with the ICC pofile embedded the conversion is ok.

      does anyone know how it works?

        • 1. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          PDFs can have multiple profiles embedded. Have you opened the PDF in Acrobat Pro and checked the profiles of the page items to see if they really are SWOP? Open Output Preview, set the Preview to Object Inspector and click an page object to get its profile.

          • 2. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            Also if the CMYK Color Management Policy was set to Off or Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) when the document was created then all incoming profiles are ignored.

            • 3. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
              scodeller.m Level 1

              the images inside the placed PDF don't have any ICC profile embedded.The ICC pofile is embedded to the PDF itself.

              I use the setting "Convert to the destination,preserv the number" because otherwise the text 100% black is converted and the result is a 4 colur text

              • 4. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                I use the setting "Convert to the destination,preserv the number" because otherwise the text 100% black is converted and the result is a 4 colur text

                 

                I was referring to the Color Settings' Color Management Policy  not the Export Color Conversion setting. If the document you are placing the PDF into has a policy of Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) or Off, the incoming PDF's profile(s) will be ignored.

                 

                Policies are saved with the document when it is created, so changing the Color Setting's Policy won't effect existing documents.

                • 5. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
                  scodeller.m Level 1

                  In the color setting I already set "keep the embedded profiles" how you can see in the picture.(the language is italian but I think you can  understand).color setting.pngoutput setting.png

                  • 6. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Have you opened the placed PDF and confirmed that the page items are in fact profiled? Here I have Output Preview set to Object Inspector and it shows the red box I've clicked on as US SWOP:

                     

                    Screen Shot 2013-08-07 at 8.47.51 AM.png

                     

                    If there's no profile it will show as deviceCMYK.

                     

                    There's a known bug with PDFs exported as PDF/X-4. When you place them back into InDesign the original ID native objects come back as not profiled. Is the  placed PDF  a PDF/X?

                    • 7. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
                      scodeller.m Level 1

                      the page item is without the profile.The PDF is PDF/X1 with the profile embedded as shown in the picture.Schermata 2013-08-07 a 15.19.29.png

                      • 8. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        PDF/X-1a includes an Output Intent but does not allow profiles, when you place a PDF/X-1a back into ID the output intent is ignored and all color is treated as deviceCMYK.

                         

                        Try exporting with profiles included but with the Standard set to None:

                         

                        Screen Shot 2013-08-07 at 10.10.56 AM.png

                        • 9. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
                          scodeller.m Level 1

                          I receive these PDF's from the advertising agency and I don't have control how they create the PDF's.

                          • 10. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            I think you'll have to convert the supplied US SWOP PDF/X-1a to your PSO lwc improved CMYK in Acrobat before you place it back into ID.

                             

                            Something like this would work well, where you use PSO lwc improved instead of US Sheetfed I'm showing, because it protects black text and assigns a new output intent:

                             

                             

                            Tools>Print Production>Convert Colors

                            Screen Shot 2013-08-07 at 10.41.23 AM.png

                            • 11. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
                              Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                              With regards to placing PDF/X files in either InDesign or Illustrator ...

                               

                              Neither InDesign nor Illustrator currently do anything whatsoever with the Output Intent ICC profile in a PDF/X file. It is totally ignored. In PDF/X-1a files, there is no other color mangement and as such, all objects are either DeviceCMYK or DeviceGray or spot colors. The objects are imported as CMYK or spot color values assuming the document's default CMYK color space. Thus, if you place a PDF/X-1a file with a profile for Gracol and your InDesign document's default color space is US Web Coated SWOP, those CMYK colors in the PDF/X-1a will be brought in as-is but interpreted as is they were US Web Coated SWOP.

                               

                              The picture becomes a bit more complex for PDF/X-4. All untagged CMYK objects in a PDF/X-4 file are assumed to have the color space of the embedded Output Intent ICC profile. CMYK content in PDF/X-4 that uses a CMYK color space must be explicitly tagged as such and have an embedded profile for such color spaces. Ironically, all CMYK content that matches the color space of the Output Intent ICC profile must be specified as DeviceCMYK per the PDF/X-4 specification (there is a long story about why that is the case). When PDF/X-4 is placed in InDesign or Illustrator, similar to the case of PDF/X-1a, the Output Intent ICC profile is indeed ignored and DeviceCMYK colors assume the document's default CMYK color space. All explictly tagged with ICC profile CMYK and RGB objects in PDF/X-4 maintain such tagging when placed within an InDesign or Illustrator document and are either preserved on PDF export/save or converted based on the PDF export/save options specified.

                               

                              Is this a problem? Yes, I believe so. I am in the process of looking at what can be done to improve the PDF/X placement capability in the future so that this problem is ameliorated.

                               

                                        - Dov

                              • 12. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Is this a problem? Yes, I believe so. I am in the process of looking at what can be done to improve the PDF/X placement capability in the future so that this problem is ameliorated.

                                Seems like it's a real problem with X-4 where it's assumed all color is profiled—the export dialog explicitly tells me all profiles are included.

                                 

                                I'm not sure I'd like to see PDF/X-1a change. It's actually helpful in some cases to have a standarized way of indicating color management should stop. If there is going to be CM at least have a way to protect some color the way Acrobat's Convert Color is doing in my #10 post.

                                 

                                I might have this postcard:

                                 

                                Screen Shot 2013-08-07 at 9.19.03 PM.png

                                 

                                Where I really do want the brightest red, (0|100|100|0), the purest Yellow (0|0|100|0), and a neutral gray (0|0|0|50). So I want my red to be 0|100|100|0 no matter what the printing conditions—0|95|91|0 won't cut it, and I cetainly don't want 4% cyan in my yellow even if we are printing in Japan. In this case my preference is saturation not color management.

                                • 13. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
                                  Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                  PDF/X-1a is pretty much of a dead issue since it (1) doesn't really support color management and certainly doesn't support live transparency and (2) PDF/X-1a doesn't actually require an output intent, but rather just a name of a printing condition – something that is particulary vague.

                                   

                                  If we do change how we place PDF/X-4 into InDesign, it would probably be with options similar to those you get when you place images with color spaces that don't match the default color spaces of the document. Also, if you look at the advanced print options in Acrobat Pro 10 and 11, you see that we do have some options for CMYK to C'M'Y'K' that preserve pure colorants, or at least pure C, M, Y, and K to avoid some of the anomalies, especially with black and gray that occur with CMYK to C'M'Y'K' conversions. We should make those options universal.

                                   

                                            - Dov

                                  • 14. Re: Placing a PDF with ICC profile embedded
                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    PDF/X-1a is pretty much of a dead issue

                                    If all documents included transparency and all printers understood CM then I wouldn't have any use for X-1a, but the majority of my pages don't include transparency and I run into sheetfed printers all the time who recommend the default US SWOP.

                                     

                                    I'm sure nothing horrible will happen if I send SWOP to a sheetfed press but something like GRACol or US Sheetfed is probably a better choice. So in that common scenerio downstream color conversions are at best arbitray and maybe harmful. I could send a non standard PDF with no profiles, but including the X-1a printing condition is very useful for archiving.