17 Replies Latest reply on Dec 10, 2016 5:27 PM by whsprague

    H.264 output

    Buddycat Level 1

      I have another PE11 question for folks.

       

      I work with MPEG clips from digitized VHS 4:3 videotapes and edit them together to be played on both Youtube and for a live audience via digital projector.   I'm trying to FTP a file to a contact who wants the edited video in H.264 MP4 format.    The problem I'm having seems to be that none of my efforts are as clear as the edited MPEG2 version of the file.   For expediency, I've sent him an MPG before and he converted it down with some professional tool, but I'm sure PE11 can save us some time if I can get the correct settings without loss of quality.and create a smaller file.

       

      What he uses is:

       

      NTSC DV H.264 3MB/s

       

      width 720, height 480, frame rate 29.97 field order: lower first, aspect D1/DV NTSC (0.9091)

      Profile: Main (or High as an alternative)

      Level:  3.1 (or higher)

      Bit Rate Settings: VBR 2 Pass, target bit rate 3, max bitrate 6 Audio format: AAC, 48KHz, Stereo, High Quality, 192Kbps

      Multiplexer: mp4 standard

       

      So I've attempted this several ways using either AVCHD or Quicktime and altered the settngs to reproduce that.    Yet, they still look less crisp.- especially my titles.   Not sure if I should be using Standard DV or some 720P or higher format (and what frame rate, etc.).

       

      Any suggestions? 

        • 1. Re: H.264 output
          A.T. Romano Level 7

          The Buddycat

           

          Have you used

          Publish+Share

          Computer

          AVCHD

          with preset = MP4 NTSC DV Standard

          then, under the Advanced Button/Video Tab, among other things

           

          Profile = High

          Level = 3.2

           

          Bitrate Encoding = VBR 2 Pass

          Target Bitrate = 25 Mbps (megabits per second)

          Maximum Bitrate = 25 Mbps (megabits per second)

          (see what that looks like and then make your trade offs with file size and quality)

           

          According to my early morning calculations his 3 MB/s (megabytes per second) should be equal to 24 Mbps (megabits per second).

           

          If you have been through the above, then we will go to another plan.

           

          I will check back to see your results and comments in the morning.

           

          Thanks.

           

          ATR

          • 2. Re: H.264 output
            Buddycat Level 1

            I had wondered if I was supposed to use the AVCHD presets or not.   I did try the NTSC DV Standard, and 2 Pass, but maybe not all the other recommendations.   Let me give that a try and I'll get back to you soon.  Thanks.

            • 3. Re: H.264 output
              Buddycat Level 1

              Whoa!   That creates an estimated 1.3 G file!     I'll have to dial down the bitrate and see what happens.

              • 4. Re: H.264 output
                A.T. Romano Level 7

                The Buddycat

                 

                That is what I meant by

                (see what that looks like and then make your trade offs with file size and quality)

                 

                 

                But, big question, in spite of the huge file size, did increasing the Bitrate improve the video quality and give you the crispness that you sought?

                 

                What file sizes were involved for your associate's work where you said he used a 3 MB/ps bitrate (aka 24 Mbps)?

                 

                ATR

                • 5. Re: H.264 output
                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                  The Buddycat,

                   

                  The first hurdle that you have is the MPEG file in the capture of the VHS tape. That will have compression, so the quality will suffer a hit, initially. Then, when you output to any compressed format/CODEC, the quality will decrease again.

                   

                  Quality is directly tied to Bit-Rate, as will file size. File size is determined primarily by the Duration of the Video (usually fixed), and the Bit-Rate. Higher Bit-Rate = higher quality, but at the expense of larger files. Lower Bit-Rate = lower quality, but with the benefit of smaller files.

                   

                  I think that ATR's output suggestions will yield a file that is the best compromise between quality and file size - but it will not be as good as the MPEG, which was not going to be as good as the VHS tape - but when starting with VHS, it can be tough to both compare for quality and see any degradation.

                   

                  Good luck,

                   

                  Hunt

                  • 6. Re: H.264 output
                    A.T. Romano Level 7

                    The Buddycat

                     

                    Clarification timeout...

                     

                    Have you said that your associate can take one of your .mpg files and turn it into a .mp4 file of the quality that you want with what you are calling professional tool and settings of

                     

                    NTSC DV H.264 3MB/s

                     

                    width 720, height 480, frame rate 29.97 field order: lower first, aspect D1/DV NTSC (0.9091)

                    Profile: Main (or High as an alternative)

                    Level:  3.1 (or higher)

                    Bit Rate Settings: VBR 2 Pass, target bit rate 3, max bitrate 6 Audio format: AAC, 48KHz, Stereo, High Quality, 192Kbps

                    Multiplexer: mp4 standard

                     

                    All those settings are attainable via the Publish+Share/Computer/AVCHD/ with presets = MP4 - NTSC DV Standard.

                     

                    At the top of your description, you typed a bitrate of 3 MB/s. That is 3 megabytes per second which equates into 24 megabits per second.

                    In the bitrate that you cite further down in the description, you write ...target bitrate 3, max bitrate 6.... but what units... megabytes or megabits? I am wondering if there is some confusion here as to the bitrate units. Reason for thinking that...

                     

                    a. the default target bitrate just happens to be 3, but 3 Mbps (megabits per second) and the default maximum bitrate just happens to be 6 Mbps (megabits per secons). If we are talking megabytes instead of megabits, that translates into 0.375 megabits and 0.75 megabits respectively.

                     

                    b. yet at the onset you say that your associate used 3 MB/s which reads out to me as 3 megabytes per second (24 megabits per second).

                     

                    The units given in Premiere Elements export here are in Mbps which represents Mbps megabits per second. When the Profile = High and Level = 3.2, both the target and maximum bitrate have a range of from 0.19 Mbps to 25 Mbps.

                     

                    Whatever the case, the bitrate setting may be a major factor in what you are able to attain. But, the key answers that we need at this time include:

                     

                    a. Did your associate take one of your .mpg and turn it into a sharp acceptable .mp4 file for you?

                     

                    b. This morning did bitrate increase get you to what your associate had achieved with your file?

                    Taking your Target and Maximum bitrates to the max (24 Mbps) here was just a rough way to gauge the impact of this factor. The level of the bitrate settings and the relative setting between Target and Maximum was to be evaluated once we knew if bitrate was a key player in this task.

                     

                    Looking forward to your results.

                     

                    Thanks.

                     

                    ATR

                    • 7. Re: H.264 output
                      A.T. Romano Level 7

                      The Buddycat

                       

                      If you want to do some exploration, results in H.264.mov instead of AVCHD (MPEG4 AVC/H.264).mp4, try the

                       

                      Publish+Share

                      Computer

                      QuickTime

                      with preset = NTSC DV

                       

                      Under the Advanced Button/VIdeo Tab...remove the check mark next to "Limit data rate to...1000" and type in 12000. Here the units are in kbps (kilobits per second). That 12000 kbps would be eqivalent to about 12 Mbps (megabits per second). There is no one fits all for video bitrate.

                       

                      The Video Tab data should look like...

                       

                      exportsettingbitrate.JPG

                       

                      The screenshot cuts off the video codec, but it is H.264. Please note the file size and quality for this H.264.mov file.

                       

                      Thanks.

                       

                      ATR

                      • 8. Re: H.264 output
                        Buddycat Level 1

                        Gentlemen.:

                         

                        Just did a test on a short clp at the "max bitrate".    It looks pretty good, but obviously, the file size will be huge.    It then becomes a matter of whittling things down, I guess.

                         

                        A.T.:  As to your question, the parameters my contact uses is a direct cut & paste.   So for him, I meant definitely 3MB per second.     To your question about did he convert an MPEG, I cant find anything in our dialoge history that indicates if I did send him an MPEG, but given that it was only a 2 1/2 minute video, I think it probably was, and he converted it.   I didn't have a chance to look at the conversion that he did - I figured if he can compare the two and not see much degradation, that was good enough for me.    Now, I just found another correspondence that confrims that I did send him an MPEG, and he said he was able to shrink it  down from 144MB to 30 MB.    And he says he used      profile: High, VBR 2 Pass, 3 target, max 6 mb/s.

                         

                        Now, for both you and Hunt,  I just did a comparison burn of a 32 second clip between an MP4 (NTSC Standard, etc., 2 pass) with the highest bitrate, and an MPEG2 with the parameters:  

                         

                        Quality: 3

                        Field Order  Lower

                        Render at Maximum Depth(?): off

                        Minimum MBps: 5.4

                        Target MBps: 6

                        Maximum MBps: 8

                         

                        Results:  The 32 sec. MPEG came out to 43m -  the MP4 came out to a whopping 143M(!)    AS I said above, while the MP4 came out huge, it also didn't look like it lost much.   So clearly, there's room for adjustment here.  

                         

                        IN the final analysis, I could just Dropbox an MPEG to him, but I know PE is capable of doing these files, and I need t learn the newer format.

                         

                        By the way, I should mention that my videos sometimes include a mixture of photos and video at times, if that makes any differences for the photos (in case I need to check any additional boxes).

                        • 9. Re: H.264 output
                          Buddycat Level 1

                          Okay, a correction.   It's a 52 second clip.

                           

                          Just did another AVCHD MP4, this time wtih the Target of 6 and a maximum of 12.   CAme out "okay".   Did what AT suggested - came out "OK".    Hard to distiiguish between the two, but it looks like the Target of 6 and max of 12 might be slightly better.    Let me try something to let you see what I'm looking at. 

                           

                          BTW, the Target 6 came out to 39.5,M, while the LImit Data Rate one came out to 84M(!).   Interestng.

                          • 10. Re: H.264 output
                            Buddycat Level 1

                            From mpeg.jpgFrom 6-12.jpg From limit 12000.jpg Top left: MPEG.      Top Right; 6 - 12MBs     Bottom:  Limit to 12000

                            • 11. Re: H.264 output
                              A.T. Romano Level 7

                              The Buddycat

                               

                              What were the details on this

                               

                              BTW, the Target 6 came out to 39.5 M, while the Limit Data Rate one came out to 84 M.

                               

                              The Publish+Share/Computer/QuickTime route is the one where you control the bitrate with the "Limit Data Rate" option, check mark or no check mark. If check mark, then you fill in a value. I had suggested 12000 kbps as a starter for this H.264.mov version.

                               

                              The Publish+Share/Computer/AVCHD route is the one where you set a Target and Maximum bitrate.

                               

                              So top is just the raw .mpg

                              Middle is AVCHD.mp4 (6 to 12 Mbps bitrates)

                              Bottom is H.264.mov (with check mark next to Limit Data Rate and your typed in value at 12000 kbps)

                               

                              Is that correct?

                               

                              I think that I tend toward the AVCHD.mp4.

                               

                              More later.

                               

                              ATR

                              • 12. Re: H.264 output
                                Buddycat Level 1

                                I believe the "Target 6" was an AVCHD.  Profile was High, 2 Pass VBR, Targe tbitrate 6-ish, Maximum bitrate 12-ish.

                                 

                                 

                                My contact has since told me to use the SD Vimeo A.264 setting, with dimensions being 650 x 480 (somethihg about "square pixels"?), Profile Main, I set it for 2 passes, and the presets were 2 MBPS target, 3 MBPS maximum.   Something about VHS not having a very high bitrate to begin with, and adding more bitrate just makes the file bigger.

                                 

                                Honestly, I'm starting to wonder - the vid looks fine when editing, but when played on either WMP or vlc, all the clips look blurry to me now, including an MPEG.   I havne't tried it on my media player yet, but I'm starting to say WTF with this.

                                • 13. Re: H.264 output
                                  A.T. Romano Level 7

                                  The Buddycat

                                   

                                  I think you details are slightly off in detail. Here is what I think that your associate wants you to try.

                                   

                                  Publish+Share

                                  Computer

                                  AVCHD

                                  with preset Vimeo SD

                                   

                                  That will give you a H.264.mp4 file characterized by frame size 640 x 480 square pixels at 30 progressive frames per second. The bitrate will be 2 Mbps (megabits per second) for the Target and 3 Mbps (megabits per second) for the maximum. All these values are the defaults for that preset so you should not have to do anything under the Advanced Button of the preset.

                                   

                                  (Just a caution in interpreting bitrate...MBps represents megabytes per second and Mbps represents megabits per second.)

                                   

                                  The story goes to square versus non square pixels. 720 x 480 (non square pixels) is equivalent to 640 x 480 (square pixels). But, more for another time.

                                   

                                  The export settings tell us the immediate story. What did your associate use to give you good results with your source:

                                   

                                  a. 720 x 480 @ 29.97 interlaced frames per second (lower field first) with pixel aspect ratio = 0.9091 and display aspect ratio = 4.3

                                  or

                                  b. 640 x 480 @ 30 progressive frames per second with pixel aspect ratio = square pixels (1.0).

                                  or

                                  c. none...just now looking for a way to convert your source into H.264.mp4?

                                   

                                  How are these .mp4 playing back on QuickTime player?

                                   

                                  More later. Do not give up as we try to sort out the details for better.

                                   

                                  ATR

                                  • 14. Re: H.264 output
                                    Buddycat Level 1

                                    Still working on it.   For expediency, I'm dropboxing an AVI to him and he'll convert it himself.    But still open to working on this.   However, another "aha" moment was explained that watching it on a computer monitor will be different than on a TV, due to the pixels (.9091) vs. square.   So, I new to 'port all these experiments over to my media player and watch them.   Let's see what happens.

                                    • 15. Re: H.264 output
                                      A.T. Romano Level 7

                                      The Buddycat

                                       

                                      Thanks for staying with the troubleshooting.

                                       

                                      We will be watching for further developments.

                                       

                                      Follow up much appreciated.

                                       

                                      ATR

                                      • 16. Re: H.264 output
                                        mehdig60039631

                                        Thanks

                                        • 17. Re: H.264 output
                                          whsprague Adobe Community Professional

                                          mehdig60039631 wrote:

                                           

                                          Thanks

                                          You responded to a topic has been dead for three and half years!