35 Replies Latest reply on Aug 15, 2013 1:54 AM by gbrmk

    The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio

    gbrmk Level 1

      I'm back.  Glad I took the break because the problems I used to have with PE11 have simply all gone and looking back I can scarcely believe I got into such contortions over it.  I'm deep into editing the videos and still photos I took on a recent holiday (the masterpiece on its way to a DVD is currently at 1hr 26 mins [eh, who needs it?!] ...)   I keep Steve Grisetti's comprehensive Muvipix guide beside the desktop for regular consultation (thanks again Steve).   Maybe this proves that it's good to take a break from seemingly insoluble problems and break out of the vicious circle.   I certainly find now (as I hadn't found months ago) just how intuitive PE11 really is when you 'get' it.

       

      I do have one question top of my list however.  I usually use a Zoom H2 sound recorder covered with what I believe is called a 'dead kitten' furry thing over the mic to stop wind noise at source, but several times had to record video just using the DSLR's own (primitive!) mic.  I'm wondering which of the various Audio Effects is best to use to reduce (if not completely eliminate) wind noise, while keeping as much speech and ambient sound as possible?

       

      I now like PE11 *almost* as much as I like Photoshop CS5.   Might even upgrade from DSLR to a proper video camera ... Hmm....

       

      Thanks in advance for any tips -- directions to the relevant articles etc -- re my audio question.

       

      Brian

        • 1. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
          A.T. Romano Level 7

          gbrmk

           

          I do not know how successful you will be in Premiere Elements with reduction of the wind noise from your video.

           

          Have you tried the NewBlue Noise Removal Effect in Premiere Elements 11 Expert view (fx Effects/Audio Effects/NewBlue Noise Removal). It is described in the Premiere Elements/Reference Effects and with the other Audio Effects offerings.

          http://help.adobe.com/en_US/premiereelements/using/WS4B8135DA-083C-42eb-B09E-65070ECBC889. html#WSF8CBE888-6702-4f8b-A85E-71B4B1531883

          Maybe also its Notch Filter?

           

          And, if that does not help, how about the free audio editor Audacity and its Notch filter?

           

          If you do not have the high end audio editor program, the above would be the best candidates for trying to reduce that wind noise. Just some thoughts.

           

          ATR

          • 2. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
            the_wine_snob Level 9

            Brian,

             

            PrE does have some Audio Effects, but I think that you might run out of those before you get what you need. I have compiled a little list of "maybes," mostly using other programs: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2860521#2860521

             

            So very much depends on the frequency range of the noise, and what one wishes to keep from the rest of the spectrum. That article has some tips, starting suggestions, and pointers.

             

            Good luck,

             

            Hunt

            • 3. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
              gbrmk Level 1

              Bill and AT Romana,  Many thanks to both for your replies.   Bill, I shall certainly read those articles.   Meanwhile, yes, ATR, I do use Audacity a lot, and after I wrote my question I gave it a go, simply using PE11 to make a sound-only 'video' and then editing the lot in Audacity using the Noise Reduction filter.  It's definitely an improvement on the original tho' still not marvellous.  I didn't delete anything of course, so the new audiofile fits perfectly after deleting the original sound parts of each clip.  The 'cleaned' audio is now on the Soundtrack.  I want to add bits of music here and there -- I take it I could add these to Audio 1?

               

              The problem with using the Zoom H2 (which is an excellent little gadget) is that it makes the DSLR + Zoom + Rycote Suspension with gizmo to attach to the camera's hot shoe is that it makes the whole thing bulky and relatively unmanageable.   However, it's far better than using the DSLR mic (and not just for eliminating the windnoise problem).   It looks a bit Heath-Robinson-ish, but I don't know of any other arrangement one can easily carry around.  (I tried a Shoulder Support Rig but unfortunately it didn't have the right fittings for the Zoom recorder.)

               

              What would be nice (if it exists) would be something like a *lightweight* cradle that can hold the Zoom in place, leaving hands free to navigate the DSLR).

               

              Do you know of such a thing, please?

               

              all best

              Brian

              • 4. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                A.T. Romano Level 7

                gbrmk

                 

                I have never run into any issues using music soundtrack vs audio tracks.

                 

                As for the Zoom H2 et al, never been there and done that. In view of that, I have no recommendations on a step up in convenience from that.

                 

                From what I have read, wind noise is not all that easy to deal with, and reduction seems the likely outcome. It appears that you have had a  good measure of success in that. Good job.

                 

                ATR

                • 5. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                  gbrmk Level 1

                  Many thanks again ATR.  When I have time I’ll try to post a photo of my slightly terrifying arrangement to record windfree sound at the same time as video.  There’s got to be a better way!

                   

                  all best

                  Brian

                  • 6. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                    gbrmk,

                     

                    One little "glitch," that some users have encountered, when using a Zoom, or similar auxiliary audio recording device, is that of sync. Once, one would attach their film camera to their recorder via a cable, and then let one device determine the sync for the other, via a crystal clock. The upside was that the film and the audio were in perfect sync, and the downside was that the equipment was attached via a cable.

                     

                    Now, we have digital clocks, that should be 100% perfect, but they are not. Many users have found that the audio is very slightly "slower," than their digital video camera. One user, Jim Simon, tested his Pannies against his Zoom, and found that he needed to speed up his audio by 04% to get perfect sync between the devices. This was a constant, so his workflow was to always apply the same speed change to all of his Zoom's audio files.

                     

                    If you are getting perfect sync, between your cameras and your Zoom, then nothing to worry about. If there IS a sync issue, then perhaps Jim Simon's method will work for you too, though you would need to test your equipment, to find the degree of error.

                     

                    As for recording outdoors, a shotgun mic on a pole, with a "dead cat" wind screen, and proper mic placement (close to, and pointed at the sound source, but outside the Frame) is about as good as it gets.

                     

                    Good luck,

                     

                    Hunt

                    • 7. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                      gbrmk Level 1

                      I might well have another look at shotgun mics, thanks Bill.

                      • 8. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                        nealeh Level 5

                        I've always had a liking for Magix Audio Cleaning Lab - for its price it achieves remarkable results in cleaning up audio. The old version I had worked in W7-64 but annoyingly always produced an error message when exiting the program so I just bought their current version (Audio Cleaning Lab 2013). It's on offer at the moment (because the 2014 version will be out soon I expect) and after deducting coupon code discounts (google 'magix coupon code') cost me less than £20 (around $30).

                         

                        Wind reduction is listed as one of the cleaning effects:

                         

                        1.jpg

                         

                        Cheers,
                        --
                        Neale
                        Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children.

                        • 9. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                          Neale,

                           

                          I have also been impressed by that Magix program - even though I have Adobe Audition.

                           

                          Thanks for the information on the coupon - my copy is quite old now too, so I need to get a new one for my new laptop.

                           

                          Hunt

                          • 10. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                            gbrmk Level 1

                            Looks very interesting indeed, I'd not heard of this product, thanks Neale, I'll check that out.

                            all best

                            Brian

                            • 11. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                              Brian,

                               

                              I was so impressed by Audio Cleaning Lab, that I quickly added a link to Magix in that "Wind Noise" article.

                               

                              Often, I will just use that program, and it works well enough to get me by. Then, I often run it, BEFORE doing the final touch-up work in Audition.

                               

                              Especially for the price, it is amazing!

                               

                              Good luck,

                               

                              Hunt

                              • 12. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                nealeh Level 5

                                It's available as a free trial version so you can see if it deals with wind noise any better than Audacity before having to shell out any money.

                                 

                                Cheers,
                                --
                                Neale
                                Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children.

                                • 13. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                  gbrmk Level 1

                                  Bill,   I was on  the point of buying this after doing a bit of online research, until I found these comments on the UK Amazon site, with some grumpy ‘disappointed’ customers complaining that the 2013 version didn’t compare favourably with previous versions.

                                   

                                  Here’s the link  http://tinyurl.com/mdagvvd   But bearing in mind what you and Neale say, I’m strongly inclined to ignore the Amazon customers.

                                   

                                  I’ll hold off to see if either of you has any comment on what some of them say.    One of the complaints is about Spectral Cleaning, but I’ll have to look that one up, no idea what it is.  I know that some Amazon customers never seem happy, so I’m ready to take this lot with a pinch of salt.

                                   

                                  Brian

                                  • 14. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                    gbrmk Level 1

                                    Downloading as I write, Neale, thanks!

                                    all best

                                     

                                    • 15. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                                      Brian,

                                       

                                      My version is older (guessing about 11), and I have not upgraded it. I cannot comment on how well newer versions work. I also did not know about the trial, but do think that Neale has a great rec. - try, before you buy.

                                       

                                      Please let us know how you like it.

                                       

                                      Good luck,

                                       

                                      Hunt

                                      • 16. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                        gbrmk Level 1

                                        Just running a few tests on the trial copy (registered free for 30 days).   First impressions, excellent not least because it’s actually much easier to use than Audacity, and much faster (I don’t know whether everyone does this but with Audacity I would sample each episode on a clip of wind noise and correct that, even if only a second or two – it took ages!).   I loaded a clip with loud noise and ran the Denoiser for wind noise (the two for the heaviest contamination) and I’m very impressed indeed.   I ended up much more easily with a sound that’s considerably cleaner than what I got from a lot of work in Audacity.

                                         

                                        Pretty sure I’ll buy after doing some more work on it.  At the price, how could I resist or complain?   Thanks again to you and Neale for this.  (Still doesn’t beat the ‘dead kitten’ tho!)

                                         

                                        Brian

                                        • 17. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                          nealeh Level 5

                                          Magix,  a German company, has always had a non-standard approach to it's user interface and it's certainly not as intuitive to get to grips quickly with as more standard 'windows' software.

                                           

                                          However in my opinion it's worth persevering with as, like anything it gets easier the more you use it.

                                           

                                          I only got the latest version myself this week after a special discounted upgrade offer popped up in my e-mail (frankly I suspect they are dumping stock before the 2014 product launch, but that error when exiting was REALLY getting on my nerves).

                                           

                                          So, I've not played with it much yet. My previous version was the first, I think, to have spectral cleaning but I could never get it to work. Apparently it should, if you know what you are doing, be able to isolate and remove distinct noises (e.g. a cough).

                                           

                                          I don't like the new interface as much as my older version, but looking at the various effects and cleaning options everything I have previously used regularly is still there and anything else is a bonus. I doubt the cleaning algorithms themselves will have deteriorated between versions so I'm a happy bunny.

                                           

                                          I don't understand the Amazon review that says you can't import directly from CD's - it is still there. And spectral view can be applied to the whole project or a single audio object which is what I thought it was before.

                                           

                                          But you'll be able to try for yourself once your trial is installed - if it fixes your wind noise it's a cheap solution and anything else is a bonus, if it doesn't it's only cost you a few hours of your time.

                                           

                                          Cheers,
                                          --
                                          Neale
                                          Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children.

                                          • 18. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                                            Neale,

                                             

                                            Thank you for that review.

                                             

                                            Appreciated,

                                             

                                            Hunt

                                            • 19. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                              gbrmk Level 1

                                              Been trying some other effects on other audiofiles I have.   My very early feeling about it is that it’s a great quick fix if one doesn’t want to get too bogged down if you want to get a finished product up and running.   But I need to play with it lots more.   I’m certainly glad to have met it.

                                               

                                               

                                              • 20. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                gbrmk Level 1

                                                Bill et al

                                                 

                                                Just published/shared/exported a clip as audio-only to my pc to edit in Magix Audio Cleaning Lab and find the latter doesn't 'see' it, ie not recognised.  I see PE11 saved the audio as AC3, and the Windows dialog box tells me it opens with Quick Time Player.  I can of course convert this to eg MP3 or even WAV using Audacity, but will I have to do this every time?

                                                 

                                                Can I set PE11 to save/publish audio-only as something Magix CL recognises?  By the way, when I'm adding sound to a video clip (not one recorded with the original, eg it's music or some other sound) I've hitherto always used WAV, simply because that's the way I store most of my music, tho' I realise it may be using unnecessarily large files for PE11.   Do most of you use eg MP3 or some other format, either with minimal compression, or lossless?

                                                 

                                                Thanks again for help with this.   Meanwhile I'll do some more research.

                                                 

                                                all best

                                                Brian

                                                • 21. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                  Brian,

                                                   

                                                  I would just do that Export/Share to PCM/WAV @ 48KHz 16-bit, and Import/Open that in Magix.

                                                   

                                                  Does that work for you?

                                                   

                                                  Good luck,

                                                   

                                                  Hunt

                                                  • 22. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                    A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                    Hunt,

                                                     

                                                    Could you clarify your suggestion to Brian?

                                                     

                                                    You wrote

                                                    I would just do that Export/Share to PCM/WAV @ 48KHz 16-bit, and Import/Open that in Magix.

                                                     

                                                    Is that "Export/Share" intended to be done in Premiere Elements 11 via Publish+Share/Computer/Audio?

                                                     

                                                    How specific do the details need to be to achieve the desired result?

                                                     

                                                    You write "PCM/WAV"...I can get there from Publish+Share/Computer/Audio with preset = Windows Waveform. But under the Advanced Button of the preset there are two audio codec choices, each with "PCM" in its name:

                                                    IMA ADPCM

                                                    and

                                                    Microsoft HDPCM

                                                    Any pros and cons for these choices?

                                                     

                                                    16 bit is no problem in setting. But, for Sample Rate, the highest choice I see is for 44.1 Hz.

                                                     

                                                    ATR

                                                    • 24. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                      gbrmk Level 1

                                                      Thanks all ... I’m not actually getting the same ...  I hope an attachment travels to the forum with this email.   I can’t anywhere see what you have Bill.

                                                       

                                                      all best

                                                      Brian

                                                      • 26. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                        Gbrmk,

                                                         

                                                        Please remind me, you have PrE 11 don't you? That screen-cap comes from PrE 11's Publish+Share Panel, and one has to scroll that down, to get to the Audio options - note: the scroll bar is NOT easy to see, and has been missed by many - look to the far right, then scroll to the bottom.

                                                         

                                                        As for the attachment, it will not attach via e-mail. One must access the forum via a Web browser, and then use the little "camera" icon, in the Forum editing page's Toolbar - right in the middle. Be sure to use either a PNG, or JPEG.

                                                         

                                                        Good luck,

                                                         

                                                        Hunt

                                                        • 27. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                          gbrmk Level 1

                                                          Thanks Bill, I got to sign off now, it’s 1-16 am Wednesday here!   By the way, I tried clicking on the ‘change’ link at the bottom of the web page to change my location to UK, but keep getting Page Not Found message.

                                                          Bye til tomorrow!

                                                          all best

                                                          Brian

                                                          • 28. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                            Brian,

                                                             

                                                            I completely understand.

                                                             

                                                            We are in the UK 2-3x per year, and I just got back from Sydney, where it was like next Sunday, at 9:00AM, or something like that.

                                                             

                                                            Good luck,

                                                             

                                                            Hunt

                                                            • 29. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                              gbrmk Level 1

                                                              I remember you mentioned that Bill (re visits to UK).   I’ve crossed the pond myself only twice, once on hols in the USA, the other time for a cross-Canada coast-to-coast journey.

                                                               

                                                              Re the Magix Audio Cleaner, I’m not finding it very intuitive so far – the actual cleaning processes are easy enough if I’m working on an entire audio clip, but that’s not what I’m after.   I’ve watched a few of the tutorials and read through the Help items but nowhere have I found the obvious things like how do you select a short bit of the file to modify?   All the usual obvious things don’t work, ie using the shift or CTRL with the mouse.   I’ve put in two markers but how on earth do you select the bit between the two of them?   I know this forum is for PE11 and not Magix, but now that it’s cropped up, I’m asking about my prob!

                                                               

                                                              The designers of the software must have thought these things so obvious they didn’t mention them.   Could be of course that I’ve stupidly missed the basic instruction.   It wouldn’t surprise me.

                                                              all best

                                                              Brian

                                                              • 30. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                In the "old days," one would click+drag the Cursor on the Timeline, to create the Envelope (the selected area to apply Effects and adjustments). Not sure if the GUI has changed with the later versions?

                                                                 

                                                                Good luck, and maybe Neale, who has the later version, can tell us if that still works.

                                                                 

                                                                Hunt

                                                                • 31. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                                  nealeh Level 5

                                                                  I don't recall being able to select by click-dragging the cursor. The new version seems to operate as it did in my old version - which is essentially 'object' based.

                                                                   

                                                                  You use the badly named 'cut mouse' cursor mode to set the start and end points of the section you want to work with. This create an 'object'. Then you choose to edit in Object mode and changes affect only the selected object.

                                                                   

                                                                  Once created you cannot rejoin objects, nor can you work with more than one at a time.

                                                                   

                                                                  As I said, it has a completely non-standard UI and I strongly recommend getting to know the shortcut keys (especially 'V' and 'H' that choose the 'Edit Mouse Mode' and 'Cut Mouse Mode' respectively and 'T' that creates a split at the timeline cursor point). Searching help 'keyboard layout' takes you to a help page with all the shortcuts listed.

                                                                   

                                                                  Cheers,
                                                                  --
                                                                  Neale
                                                                  Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children.

                                                                  • 32. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                    Neale,

                                                                     

                                                                    Thank you. I now believe that I was thinking of how creating and selecting an Envelope works in Audition - my main audio-editing software.

                                                                     

                                                                    I seem to recall that I could not find "envelope" in Cleaning Lab, and finally found "object."

                                                                     

                                                                    Thanks for the memory jog,

                                                                     

                                                                    Hunt

                                                                    • 33. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                                      gbrmk Level 1

                                                                      I confess for the moment I’ve gone back to my old familiar Audacity – I don’t think it’s nearly as good as Magix for the windblowing problem but I’m in a hurry to get my project finished and finding the unfamiliar Magix too fiddly – but I’ve got 28 days left on my free trial (14 if I take advantage of their latest offer of 10GBP off).   I could of course simply do the windnoise reduction on the whole of every clip but that would ruin everything!

                                                                       

                                                                      Thanks to Neale for clarifying the scissors thing – I didn’t go near it for fear of slicing up my clips for ever!   I shall know better in future.   Yes, I’ve been looking at the keyboard shortcuts, essential for this software as you say.   I’ll go back to Magix I’m sure because in many ways it looks good, but for now it’s laborious slog with Audacity!

                                                                       

                                                                      all best

                                                                      Brian

                                                                      • 34. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                                        nealeh Level 5

                                                                        gbrmk wrote:

                                                                         

                                                                        Thanks to Neale for clarifying the scissors thing – I didn’t go near it for fear of slicing up my clips for ever!

                                                                         

                                                                        With the exception of 'Wave Drawing Mode' editing in ACL is, like PRE itself, non destructive. Cleaning and Mastering Effects are applied in real time during preview and only included in exported version of the files.

                                                                         

                                                                        If you think you need to use 'Wave Drawing Mode' work on a copy of the file. When I first started working with ACL2013 I think it warned me about this when I first entered the mode but since running the update program, that downloaded and installed a patch file, it no longer seems to do so.

                                                                         

                                                                        Spectral Cleaning also works directly on the audio file, but automatically backs up the original file first.

                                                                         

                                                                        Cheers,
                                                                        --
                                                                        Neale
                                                                        Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children.

                                                                        • 35. Re: The return of the prodigal ;) Qy re audio
                                                                          gbrmk Level 1

                                                                          That’s helpful to know, Neale, thanks.   I wont be grappling with ACL seriously until I finish the current project, hopefully next week.

                                                                          all best