16 Replies Latest reply on Jan 21, 2008 3:54 AM by Newsgroup_User

    New version support Flash 9 and AS3?

    philggg
      Will the next version of Director support swf's that targeted for Flash 9 players and that include AS3?
      If so, any idea of the performance of those embedded flash files? Faster or slower than when run in a Flash Player?
      thanks
      Phil
        • 1. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
          Level 7
          > Will the next version of Director support swf's that targeted for Flash 9
          > players and that include AS3?

          If this info hasn't been made public already (for example, in the FAQ or
          at MAX) then no-one here will be able to tell you (NDA, ignorance, ...)

          > If so, any idea of the performance of those embedded flash files? Faster or
          > slower than when run in a Flash Player?

          In the past, Flash hosted in Director has always performed worse than in
          the Flash Player

          • 2. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
            Necromanthus Level 2
            quote:

            Originally posted by: Sean Wilson
            > Will the next version of Director support swf's that targeted for Flash 9
            > players and that include AS3?

            If this info hasn't been made public already (for example, in the FAQ or
            at MAX) then no-one here will be able to tell you (NDA, ignorance, ...)


            YES.
            Source: ADOBE MAX 2007 - Director 11 Sneak Preview

            quote:

            Originally posted by: Sean Wilson
            > If so, any idea of the performance of those embedded flash files? Faster or
            > slower than when run in a Flash Player?

            In the past, Flash hosted in Director has always performed worse than in
            the Flash Player


            5-10% slower (not so bad)
            But something very important: the flash content (script,images,sounds,etc) is secure!

            cheers

            • 3. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
              Level 7
              > YES.
              > Source: ADOBE MAX 2007 - Director 11 Sneak Preview

              Hence my "If..."

              The point I was trying to make to the OP was that these types of
              questions ("Will the next version do xyz") are fruitless for the reasons
              I outlined

              > But something very important: the flash content (script,images,sounds,etc) is
              > secure!

              I disagree. Perhaps "more secure", but given Valentin's SwfExport xtra
              these too can be saved/exported/extracted from a Director file
              • 4. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                Necromanthus Level 2
                quote:

                Originally posted by: Sean Wilson
                > YES.
                > Source: ADOBE MAX 2007 - Director 11 Sneak Preview

                Hence my "If..."

                The point I was trying to make to the OP was that these types of
                questions ("Will the next version do xyz") are fruitless for the reasons
                I outlined


                Sean,
                "If", "it seems", "maybe" and "perhaps" are not very useful if you want to share an information.
                As i said before: Flash 9 and AS3 support in the upcoming Director 11.


                quote:

                Originally posted by: Sean Wilson
                > But something very important: the flash content (script,images,sounds,etc) is
                > secure!

                I disagree. Perhaps "more secure", but given Valentin's SwfExport xtra
                these too can be saved/exported/extracted from a Director file



                If you agree or not it's your problem.
                Here is a challenge for you (and Valentin):
                http://necromanthus.com/Games/ShockWave/MortalKombat.html
                100% flash (v7, AS1) embedded into a DCR file.
                Use any Xtra you want and try to steal (extract) the flash assets.
                Send me a note when you're done.
                Take your time ...
                ;)
                • 5. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                  Level 7
                  necromanthus schrieb:
                  > Here is a challenge for you (and Valentin):
                  > http://necromanthus.com/Games/ShockWave/MortalKombat.html
                  > 100% flash (v7, AS1) embedded into a DCR file.
                  > Use any Xtra you want and try to steal (extract) the flash assets.

                  Where's the problem? I have the .swf locally here (326 KB) and it seems
                  to run just fine!? What I didn't do (because usually I respect other's
                  people's work) is that I tried to decompile the .swf back to .fla Is
                  that enough for you or didn't I understand your challenge correctly!?

                  Maybe Sean couldn't be more specific because he himself is bound to NDA!?

                  BTW: Nice game.
                  • 6. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                    Necromanthus Level 2
                    quote:

                    Originally posted by: Oliver Kilb
                    I have the .swf locally here (326 KB) and it seems to run just fine!?



                    If that's true, this is bad news.
                    I cannot convince more flash users to use director to protect their projects.
                    Did you use Valentin's SwfExport xtra?
                    • 7. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                      Level 7
                      necromanthus schrieb:
                      > If that's true, this is bad news.

                      Well, I can assure you it's true. I have a member with a filesize of
                      349,9K (according to the Director Property Inspector) and a
                      SourceFileName of "<erased>\FLASH\Necromanthus\<erased>.fla".

                      Moreover, it took me about 5 Minutes and ~20 Lines of Code (and could be
                      done in half the lines I think), using normal Director Lingo.

                      > I cannot convince more flash users to use director to protect their projects.
                      > Did you use Valentin's SwfExport xtra?
                      >

                      Yes I did, but I don't think that's the only way to do it.

                      I don't want to go too much into specs, but I think you didn't use all
                      the possibilities that are available.

                      Think a little bit more of what you can do with the .dcr file itself and
                      what you can do if it's running in a context where it's not supposed to.
                      There are at least some more things to make it harder for the majority.
                      • 8. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                        Necromanthus Level 2
                        quote:

                        Originally posted by: Oliver Kilb
                        > I cannot convince more flash users to use director to protect their projects.
                        > Did you use Valentin's SwfExport xtra?
                        >

                        Yes I did, but I don't think that's the only way to do it.


                        This is bad news.
                        Of course, nothing in this world is perfect or 100% secure.
                        But this is not the main point here.
                        A leak of infos from Adobe, Valentin is an "official" hacker, or both of them?
                        In any case, this is a bad promotion for Director Shockwave.
                        At least Macromedia was able to keep the DCR file structure "locked" for many years.
                        I'm out.

                        • 9. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                          philggg Level 1
                          Thanks for the discussion.
                          Regarding protecting Flash assets in Director, I think the trick is to create some script in Director that interoperates with the Flash movie, so that the Flash movie can't operate without it.
                          cheers
                          • 10. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                            Level 7
                            necromanthus schrieb:
                            > At least Macromedia was able to keep the DCR file structure "locked" for many
                            > years.
                            > I'm out.

                            Sorry to disappoint you again, but this is basically possible since
                            Director 7 (9 years ago) and MX 2004 is still a Macromedia product... so
                            don't blame Adobe ;)

                            But, as I hinted, there are ways to secure your content better. I don't
                            want to be more precise because such hints can also be used to "hack",
                            as you called it, less protected files.

                            I wouldn't call Valentin a hacker, because there are several Xtras
                            available that can export different types of members to disc.

                            If anyone, you should blame the company formerly known as Macromedia
                            that they didn't secure the .swf better against disassembling back to
                            .fla - but not Director.
                            • 11. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                              Level 7
                              "Oliver.Kilb" <director@oliver-kilb.de> posted in macromedia.director.basics:

                              > If anyone, you should blame the company formerly known as Macromedia
                              > that they didn't secure the .swf better against disassembling back to
                              > .fla - but not Director.

                              As you say, it's not really the Director design, though even .dcr only hides
                              Lingo code, not assets. All it was ever designed to do.

                              As to .swf, kind of a tough call - blame or credit?

                              The fact that Macromedia published the .swf file spec may be a major factor
                              contributing to the overwhelming success of the Flash player/plugin.

                              http://www.macromedia.com/licensing/developer/fileformat/faq/

                              Once you open a filespec, it's rather difficult to make it secure. Just ask
                              Adobe about the PDF format ;-)



                              --
                              Mark A. Boyd
                              Keep-On-Learnin' :)
                              • 12. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                                Necromanthus Level 2
                                quote:

                                Originally posted by: Oliver Kilb
                                Sorry to disappoint you again, but this is basically possible since
                                Director 7 (9 years ago) and MX 2004 is still a Macromedia product... so
                                don't blame Adobe ;)



                                Here is not about if i'm disappointed or not.
                                And i'm not talking about Jeroen's "tools", because they're not "official".
                                Director Shockwave is still alive for two reasons:
                                1) 3D in your browser
                                2) the most secure file format on the web
                                What we have now:
                                1) the 3D engine has not been updated for 7 years (in fact from beginning ...)
                                2) there're "official" tools (aka Xtras made by Valentin and other shockwave "developers") designed to steal the DCR assets.
                                In these conditions do you expect new Director users?
                                I really doubt about that ...


                                • 13. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                                  Level 7
                                  necromanthus schrieb:
                                  > 2) there're "official" tools (aka Xtras made by Valentin and other shockwave
                                  > "developers") designed to steal the DCR assets.

                                  Well, follow the path I mentioned before: Your .dcr isn't really secured
                                  (or I should rather say "hardened")! Basically you just embedded your
                                  .swf into a .dcr and thought that's enough, but it isn't. Like Mark said
                                  before, assets aren't secured by design.

                                  But you can do more about that. Think about checking something like the
                                  moviepath and how you could destroy assets when it's not a valid one for
                                  starters. Or what to do if you run offline instead of in a browser. That
                                  could give you some ideas to work with.

                                  I'm sure you can do better! Give it a try - send me a mail if you need
                                  another test. But to be honest: I don't specialize in these things, so
                                  just that I can't break your security doesn't mean it's as secure as it
                                  could be...

                                  If you're relying on your assets to be safe and if there is something
                                  like a market that feels the same - file a feature request that
                                  .dcr-Assets should be locked/hidden or binded to a given URL when
                                  published...
                                  • 14. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                                    Level 7
                                    "necromanthus" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> posted in
                                    macromedia.director.basics:

                                    > 2) there're "official" tools (aka Xtras made by Valentin and other
                                    > shockwave
                                    > "developers") designed to steal the DCR assets.
                                    > In these conditions do you expect new Director users?
                                    > I really doubt about that ...

                                    Official? I haven't looked at Valentin's tools, but there's a chance that
                                    they're simple Director files. They're not necessarily designed to steal, but
                                    may be to help people recover their lost source files. And such excersizes
                                    certainly serve to illustrate to the Director community (what MacroDobe
                                    offers by ommission in the manual) the strengths and weaknesses of the .dcr
                                    format.

                                    You can use Director itself to extract assets (not code) from .dcr files. You
                                    can even reproduce the Score from them with behaviors attached and their
                                    getPropertyDescriptionList properties intact and exposed.

                                    As Oliver said, there are several methods available to help make Shockwave
                                    more secure, but it takes more than simply embedding assets into a
                                    .dcr.

                                    I seem to recall an article or two on Director-Online, updateStage or
                                    MediaMacros, but a Google search should come up with more.


                                    --
                                    Mark A. Boyd
                                    Keep-On-Learnin' :)
                                    • 15. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                                      Necromanthus Level 2
                                      quote:

                                      Originally posted by: Oliver Kilb
                                      But you can do more about that. Think about checking something like the
                                      moviepath and how you could destroy assets when it's not a valid one for
                                      starters. Or what to do if you run offline instead of in a browser. That
                                      could give you some ideas to work with.

                                      quote:

                                      Originally posted by: Mark A. Boyd
                                      Official? I haven't looked at Valentin's tools, but there's a chance that
                                      they're simple Director files. They're not necessarily designed to steal, but
                                      may be to help people recover their lost source files.


                                      Guys,
                                      Do i look like a newbie to you?
                                      Do you really think i care about that flash joke?
                                      Here i'm not talking about "methods to secure your work" (check out my demos and you'll find many of them).
                                      You're missing the main point.
                                      A tool ("official" or not) able to extract a SWF file from a DIR file (because the developer lost the FLA file)
                                      is always welcome.
                                      But to extract a SWF file from a DCR file is illegal (because many assets are copyrighted).
                                      Well, if this tool is for your personal use, and nobody knows about it, that's ok.
                                      But if you share this tool on your website, this is illegal and you might get into trouble.
                                      I thought Valentin is a serious shockwave developer.
                                      Obviously i was wrong ...


                                      • 16. Re: New version support Flash 9 and AS3?
                                        Level 7
                                        I don't know where you are getting this. Even in the USA's current
                                        litigious climate, it is most certainly not illegal to make or even own
                                        a tool that is capable of decompiling stuff. Valentin has done nothing
                                        wrong (even if he lived in the USA, which I do not believe is the case)
                                        by making a tool with the expressed purpose of giving Director
                                        developers the ability to make or save swf files from a running
                                        projector. The fact that it can be put to a more nefarious use is not
                                        Valentin's fault. It's like saying that we should be suing Microsoft for
                                        releasing cmd.exe since it allows hackers to run decompiling tools.

                                        Because it is important, I will repeat. This is not a tool designed to
                                        steal swf assets. It is a tool designed to save swf files at runtime.
                                        Perhaps a better analogy is the SharpExportXtra which is also a free
                                        tool (in this case designed by Werner Sharp, the guy who wrote the
                                        imaging lingo routines in Director) that allows one to save bitmap
                                        assets at runtime. Used in a "non-standard" way, it would let you pull
                                        out bitmaps from a DCR. It is a helpful tool that I an many others have
                                        used for good things. It is a mistake to condemn it because someone
                                        could do something bad with it. It is no more illegal than the print
                                        screen button which also lets you save images of copyrighted things.

                                        What is illegal by the DMCA - at least in the USA - is to actually do
                                        the decompiling of a copyrighted work (though I don't think that you
                                        have a leg to stand on about your work in this thread since you made a
                                        challenge out of it and actually told folks to try to decompile it)

                                        I know you are not a newbie, and I have a great deal of respect for your
                                        skill and the amount of time and energy that you have put into making
                                        shockwave 3d games and other related stuff. But to say that Valentin,
                                        who is, in my mind, one of the absolute top of the line Director
                                        developers in the world, is not a serious developer is uninformed at
                                        best, and slanderous at worst. He is not trying to make hacker tools to
                                        decompile protected assets. He just makes a bunch of free xtras that
                                        are amazingly useful. The folks out there who are using these tools and
                                        others for bad things - or the ones who are making actual hacking tools
                                        - those are the ones you should be ranting at.

                                        Anyway, as it has been said before in this thread, the dcr format was
                                        never designed to be a format that protects assets. It is designed to
                                        protect your scripts. You, as a programmer are responsible for writing
                                        code that will protect your assets if that is an important thing for
                                        you. And as it has also been said, there are plenty of things that the
                                        programmer can do that will make decompiling things MUCH more difficult.